Interview Josh Sawyer Interview Roundup: On grognards, illiterates, and murdering dudes

[Athelas]

Slighty off-topic, but I always thought the existence of a dedicated inquisitor class in a world where magic is mundane and commonplace was unbelievably dumb.

 

[tuluse]

Fighters in D&D were also balanced around limited resting. So CRPGs that allow infinite resting were never a good way to judge that design.

Fighters in 2E were balanced around getting to lead small armies.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Fighters in D&D were also balanced around limited resting. So CRPGs that allow infinite resting were never a good way to judge that design.

Fighters in 2E were balanced around getting to lead small armies.

Except in Dark Sun, where they balanced around leading large armies.

 

[crawlkill]

BG2 and IWD2 can be really difficult if you don't really understand the rules or have any metagame knowledge, and just try to brute force everything with basic buffs, attacking and fireballs etc. I managed to do that when I was a kid, but I played on very easy and still remember some fights being really hard.

But isn't the entire point that that's not really compelling? If a game is only challenging if its systems aren't well-explicated or because the rules allow for you to make terrible characters easily, that doesn't seem like good design.

I think people who enjoy that kind of challenge, where the challenge is just a function of not understanding how the game works, are showing the worst kind of nerd elitism. They get a kick out of having "special knowledge" that other people don't.

 

[crawlkill]

Unless the warrior uses some kind of magic to make himself a better warrior- magic that is available only to him- then the warrior is always going to be a worse warrior than any magic class.

False. See the IE games.

Are we talking about the IE games where the most powerful class by a huge margin is fighter/mage?

There's no conceptual reason why mages should "have options" where fighters should have none, though. This was the great insight of D&D 4E. They should have different kind of options. Because otherwise all fighters do is hit things with their swords.

 

[Somberlain]

BG2 and IWD2 can be really difficult if you don't really understand the rules or have any metagame knowledge, and just try to brute force everything with basic buffs, attacking and fireballs etc. I managed to do that when I was a kid, but I played on very easy and still remember some fights being really hard.

But isn't the entire point that that's not really compelling? If a game is only challenging if its systems aren't well-explicated or because the rules allow for you to make terrible characters easily, that doesn't seem like good design.

I think people who enjoy that kind of challenge, where the challenge is just a function of not understanding how the game works, are showing the worst kind of nerd elitism. They get a kick out of having "special knowledge" that other people don't.

You are very much correct, but I wasn't too clear what my actual point was. I meant that people here claiming that IE games are really easy have probably played them a million times, know the rules, know the tactics, know the best spells and locations of best equipment etc. Even if you know your AD&D rules, I believe BG2 and IWD2 can be pretty tough for a first timer.

 

[laclongquan]

Slighty off-topic, but I always thought the existence of a dedicated inquisitor class in a world where magic is mundane and commonplace was unbelievably dumb.

It's as smart as the Internet censorship some governments absolutely require to implement: us, eu, china...

I admit the chinese is somewhat effective, but that is because they use a different language and font altogether from latin alphabet.

 

[set]

Not to get too off-topic, but I'd say it's not really effective. Bypassing it as simple as three characters: tor.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Depends on what part they complain about. Sawyer focuses on how utterly lacking the descriptions are and the ease that you can make a worthless character, which is completely true.

The stats never say what they do mechanically, some even have misleading fluff, even in the vaugest sense. The game recommends con for rangers, a stats less important than strength or dexterity for them. It requires 18 strength to use a composite longbow (which you want to do if you want to be an archer as the only magical longbows that aren't composite are 1: has to be stolen from a random house in a city you won't viist till AFTER you are expected to have a magic weapon 2: off a fairly challenging opponent that, again, comes after you are expected to get a magic weapon), even though this is super human level going by the carry weight system. You can multi-class cleric/ranger, even though there is no advantage to this (congrants, you are now a ranger who can't used any but the weakest ranged weapon and have a fairly bad selection of melee weapons too. Yay?). Hell, you aren't even told that Druids cast off Wisdom.

It's really easy to create a bad character in Baldur's Gate.

You realise that BG is a party-based game?

 

[deuxhero]

Awor Szurkrarz Exactly, it isn't an escort mission where the party members carry the deadweight PC.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Awor Szurkrarz Exactly, it isn't an escort mission where the party members carry the deadweight PC.

Sub-optimal != deadweight.

 

[Lhynn]

BG2 and IWD2 can be really difficult if you don't really understand the rules or have any metagame knowledge, and just try to brute force everything with basic buffs, attacking and fireballs etc. I managed to do that when I was a kid, but I played on very easy and still remember some fights being really hard.

But isn't the entire point that that's not really compelling? If a game is only challenging if its systems aren't well-explicated or because the rules allow for you to make terrible characters easily, that doesn't seem like good design.

I think people who enjoy that kind of challenge, where the challenge is just a function of not understanding how the game works, are showing the worst kind of nerd elitism. They get a kick out of having "special knowledge" that other people don't.

Games with a lot of depth that demand that player study them, understand them and succed at them is a good thing, especially in RPGs with complex mechanics. So no, i dont believe its a bad thing.

Also that kind of challenge is part of the game, as everything else.

 

[deuxhero]

Awor Szurkrarz Exactly, it isn't an escort mission where the party members carry the deadweight PC.

Sub-optimal != deadweight.

There is a difference between "sub-optimal" and "can't even use the type of weapon he is specialized in because his strength wasn't superhuman enough".

 

[GarfunkeL]

Gauntlets of Strength or Gauntlets of Hill Giant. Problem solved.

There's no conceptual reason why mages should "have options" where fighters should have none, though. This was the great insight of D&D 4E. They should have different kind of options. Because otherwise all fighters do is hit things with their swords.

Nope. Originally, the fighters point was that he can keep going forever, barring HP depletion, for which you had clerics and druids and paladins and potions. Mages would have a very limited array of spells to use, and would not be able to re-cast them until the party rested - which no GM worth his salt would allow to be exploited. Now, IE games do have wandering monsters, but players can just reload and try again - or if the wandering monsters are weak enough, just slaughter them and try again. So fighters are "boring", compared to casters, if you have their full arsenal available at every encounter. Obviously, spam-resting makes you only one step removed from a filthy cheater. Might as well turn difficulty to very easy or use cheats to insta-kill enemies.

Even BG1 becomes properly challenging when you stop exploiting the rest system. Even more so if you install SCS which turns the enemies from drooling morons into retards with occasional flashes of clarity. Try going through all the fights in BG sewers without resting. Or Candlekeep maze and dungeon in one go. It's much more fun that way.

As for DAO, that had four party members. I do NOT want to babysit SIX characters in combat. Luckily, as pointed out, the fighter abilities are passive, so I won't have to do that.

As for BG2 NPC's, if you don't need to use your party members special abilities, it doesn't mean the mechanics are fucked - it means the encounters are bad.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Gauntlets of Strength or Gauntlets of Hill Giant. Problem solved.

But how did they specialise in that weapon in the first place? And how the character didn't notice that it requires too much strength?

Nope. Originally, the fighters point was that he can keep going forever, barring HP depletion, for which you had clerics and druids and paladins and potions. Mages would have a very limited array of spells to use, and would not be able to re-cast them until the party rested - which no GM worth his salt would allow to be exploited. Now, IE games do have wandering monsters, but players can just reload and try again - or if the wandering monsters are weak enough, just slaughter them and try again. So fighters are "boring", compared to casters, if you have their full arsenal available at every encounter.

Fighters are boring because all their active abilities and options got cut out.

 

[deuxhero]

Gauntlets of Strength or Gauntlets of Hill Giant. Problem solved.

True...

Too bad the first and only pair is in chapter 5 and requires knowing exactly where to look.

 

[TigerKnee]

Originally, the fighters point was that he can keep going forever, barring HP depletion, for which you had clerics and druids and paladins and potions.

So the fighter's point is that he can keep going forever, except that he's held hostage by the resources of two other classes, which depending on the players might not be in the team composition at all, or limited by the amount of healing potions they have.

So in other words they can't keep going forever at all.

Don't worry, I got the perfect solution: Fighters should get regenerating HP in the new D&D edition.

 

[tuluse]

Don't worry about the Fighter being boring, he can keep being boring after the other classes are done having fun.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Gauntlets of Strength or Gauntlets of Hill Giant. Problem solved.

True...

Too bad the first and only pair is in chapter 5 and requires knowing exactly where to look.

In BG1 yeah. In which there's only a single magical Composite Long Bow +1, which you only get if you buy it from Feldepost. Meanwhile, you get Long Bow of Marksmanship from the Bandit Camp and it's equally good.

So the fighter's point is that he can keep going forever, except that he's held hostage by the resources of two other classes, which depending on the players might not be in the team composition at all, or limited by the amount of healing potions they have.

So in other words they can't keep going forever at all.

Don't worry, I got the perfect solution: Fighters should get regenerating HP in the new D&D edition.

They can keep going damn well longer than a wizard. Because the fighter will have the best AC and best THAC0, the most likely outcome of any battle is that he isn't that hurt to begin with. Not to mention that, hey, the rules are written for a party in the first place, not a competitive solo play or PvP.

Don't worry about the Fighter being boring, he can keep being boring after the other classes are done having fun.

PoE is going to be a party-based game, in case you forgot.

 

[Lhynn]

They can keep going damn well longer than a wizard. Because the fighter will have the best AC and best THAC0, the most likely outcome of any battle is that he isn't that hurt to begin with. Not to mention that, hey, the rules are written for a party in the first place, not a competitive solo play or PvP.

The rules of D&D 3.5 are written for mages to rock and fighters to suck, that is a problem.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Again, only if the game or your DM allows unlimited resting. And don't bring in alacrity and rope-trick because do GM is going to allow their combinations when it so blatantly fucks up the game completely. PH2 was banned in all the games that I played or DM'ed because of the stupid cheese.

 

[Lhynn]

Again, only if the game or your DM allows unlimited resting. And don't bring in alacrity and rope-trick because do GM is going to allow their combinations when it so blatantly fucks up the game completely. PH2 was banned in all the games that I played or DM'ed because of the stupid cheese.

PHB and DMG have the most broken stuff, so i dont even know why you would bother to ban supplements. That shit is broken, whatever a fighter can fight a mage can fight better and survive longer, and by the time a mage spells have run out a warrior has probably died 3 times, especially on mid and high levels, low levels are somewhat balanced.

Anyway, this matter has been talked to dead in actual PnP sites, go read up and then we can talk.

 

[deuxhero]

Seriously, core has
0: Daze (shut down humanoids for a round with very good odds. Sucks to be a solo boss)
1: Sleep/Color Spray (shuts down large number of characters instantly, at level 1 even the highest will saves you encounter have only slightly better than a 50% chance of avoiding it)
2: Glitterdust/Pyrotechnics/web/hideous laughter, mirror image/blur (better defenses than dedicated defenders? Sure why not), knock (Renders open lock useless), Spider Climb (renders the climb skill useless), Invisibility (Hide at least makes this even better but it makes the target better at hiding then a master sneaker), silence (any voice based abilities are useless. Try it on a tanglefoot bag), levitate (melee can't hit you), Command Undead (free meatshields and instant win against a common enemy type), Alter Self (this one gets way better outside of core, but it's pretty sweet in it too), Rope Trick (very easy resting),
3: Slow/Stinking Cloud/Sleet Storm, Phantom Steed (11+ MPH and growing is pretty sweet for overland travel alone, plus the thing can run indefinitely because it has no con score, bringing it up to 45+ MPH and it gets new methods of movement as it increases in level), Wind Wall (Archery is useless with no counter short of more magic), blink, greater magic weapon (any enhancement bonus past the minimum +1 is useless when you can get properties and stack it with this. I'd actually keep this because it helps martials so much), Fly, Gaseous Form

Even Spell Compendium, which is nothing but spells (though it does a lot more for gishes and half casters than "god" wizards) can't touch core in terms of number of broken spells.

 

[GarfunkeL]

And again both of you forget that spell slots are limited, as is resting. It's all fine and dandy to keep making endless lists of awesome spells - but it's quite pointless when you realize that the wizard has to select spells before entering the dungeon, and will have a very limited amount of spell slots. Unless we're talking epic levels, but that's a different ballgame.

I'm not trying to argue that fighters are just as cool as wizards, or that fighters aren't boring in some aspects - but that they had/have a good role to play in the party. You only need to "balance" every class to be equally "fun" or "micro" when you design a single-player game with no team/party/henchmen. Which no edition of D&D has been, and IE games were not and PoE will not be either.

 

[Lhynn]

And again both of you forget that spell slots are limited, as is resting. It's all fine and dandy to keep making endless lists of awesome spells - but it's quite pointless when you realize that the wizard has to select spells before entering the dungeon, and will have a very limited amount of spell slots. Unless we're talking epic levels, but that's a different ballgame.

I'm not trying to argue that fighters are just as cool as wizards, or that fighters aren't boring in some aspects - but that they had/have a good role to play in the party. You only need to "balance" every class to be equally "fun" or "micro" when you design a single-player game with no team/party/henchmen. Which no edition of D&D has been, and IE games were not and PoE will not be either.

What the fuck are you smoking? A druids wild shape is a class feature that is better than everything the fighter gets put together. A cleric is just as good as a druid, much better than any fighter.

The sad reality of D&D 3.5 is that you if bring a paladin/fighter/monk you are just gimping your team, because it is an empty space that could be filled with someone thats actually useful and that doesnt waste time rolling dice. I am not exaggerating here, unless you chesse with out of core stuff to give the fighter enough damage and control to be able to pull his own weight you wont get anywhere. And you are still faced with the sad realization that the only thing you get to call in your turn is how many points are going into power attack and that its still a dispel magic away from being useless/dead.