Interview Josh Sawyer Interview Roundup: On grognards, illiterates, and murdering dudes

[Abelian]

You only need to "balance" every class to be equally "fun" or "micro" when you design a single-player game with no team/party/henchmen. Which no edition of D&D has been, and IE games were not and PoE will not be either.

I didn't play it yet, but didn't NWN have only the PC character?

 

[deuxhero]

And again both of you forget that spell slots are limited, as is resting. It's all fine and dandy to keep making endless lists of awesome spells - but it's quite pointless when you realize that the wizard has to select spells before entering the dungeon, and will have a very limited amount of spell slots. Unless we're talking epic levels, but that's a different ballgame.

Even at first level you have 2 first level spells, 3 if a specialist, and 3 cantrips as a wizard. Color Spray or grease will singly handly turn a fight around or make it no-contest and daze owns stuff. Past level 1 it's just a complete joke. Plus, unlike every cRPG, wizards can leave slots unprepared at the start of the day and prepare them with some downtime. Plus at first level the fighter will die VERY quickly (a grand total of ~12 HP, possibly less) and can't hit shit so everyone is weak.

Even if this wasn't true, there is one fatal flaw: Fighters have limited resources too and without casters, they can't replenish them short of waiting around for days (months at higher levels).

 

[TigerKnee]

There is a version of D&D 3.5 where you only play a single character: Incursion - Halls of the Goblin King.

(Well, there's a Diplomacy skill to recruit NPC AI party members henchmen but it's terribly buggy and they're going to die in droves once you reach deeper levels anyway so only specific builds usually attempt this)

Incidentally, the creator of that did make some changes to the Fighter, though probably not enough, boils down to...
- Good Will Saves instead of bad (I never quite understood why they gave the class mostly terrible Saves in 3rd, it had all good saves in 2nd)
- Starts with either +1 & Element Brand or +2 (determined randomly) weapon at Char Gen. Also has around 4 Oils of Transformation which are consumables that changes the base type of a weapon. Which is basically kind of a hack to try to tackle the whole "Great I specialized in Swords but all I'm finding are +5 Spears and Daggers" problem of 3.5 Fighters.

And this is a global change rather than a Fighter specific one, but Incursion also has a Crawl-like religious system that allows you to worship deities for powers in exchange for having to follow conducts, which is basically both of those games ways of trying to handle the "My only options are attacking with my weapon and maybe use a wand or potion"

It's still a class that you only splash for full weapon/armor prof and a feat at like level 1/2.

3.5 (including PF) is probably one of the worse places to try to attempt to argue the Fighter/Caster balance. The stats on Fighters were comparatively a lot better in older editions such as 2nd and... whatever the heck Gold Box uses + less XP required per level. Even then there was probably no reason not to drop in a caster dual or multi to your Fighter.

 

[Abelian]

Fighters have limited resources too and without casters, they can't replenish them short of waiting around for days (months at higher levels).

Remembered this gem:

The Teenage Atheist Ninja Elves roll out onto the Spine of the World intent on killing lots of evil stuff and um.....killing even more evil stuff. Being the good little atheists they are, they don't believe in clerics or druids and don't believe in that useless wisdom stat. Being ninjas and all means they like to be sneaky, and shoot stuff, so they all have 19 Dexterity, all have missile weapon, crossbow, or bow proficiencies. There are two Fighter/Thieves, two Thief/Mages, and two Fighter/Thief/Mages.
[. . .]
The third level however, is a bit trickier...nothing 32 days of rest can't cure though.

 

[Lhynn]

There is a version of D&D 3.5 where you only play a single character: Incursion - Halls of the Goblin King.

(Well, there's a Diplomacy skill to recruit NPC AI party members henchmen but it's terribly buggy and they're going to die in droves once you reach deeper levels anyway so only specific builds usually attempt this)

Incidentally, the creator of that did make some changes to the Fighter, though probably not enough, boils down to...
- Good Will Saves instead of bad (I never quite understood why they gave the class mostly terrible Saves in 3rd, it had all good saves in 2nd)
- Starts with either +1 & Element Brand or +2 (determined randomly) weapon at Char Gen. Also has around 4 Oils of Transformation which are consumables that changes the base type of a weapon. Which is basically kind of a hack to try to tackle the whole "Great I specialized in Swords but all I'm finding are +5 Spears and Daggers" problem of 3.5 Fighters.

And this is a global change rather than a Fighter specific one, but Incursion also has a Crawl-like religious system that allows you to worship deities for powers in exchange for having to follow conducts, which is basically both of those games ways of trying to handle the "My only options are attacking with my weapon and maybe use a wand or potion"

It's still a class that you only splash for full weapon/armor prof and a feat at like level 1/2.

3.5 (including PF) is probably one of the worse places to try to attempt to argue the Fighter/Caster balance. The stats on Fighters were comparatively a lot better in older editions such as 2nd and... whatever the heck Gold Box uses + less XP required per level. Even then there was probably no reason not to drop in a caster dual or multi to your Fighter.

Fighters fixed (mostly)

Crusaders fix paladins and swordsages fix monks.

 

[FeelTheRads]

The third level however, is a bit trickier...nothing 32 days of rest can't cure though.

Isn't that from some non-patched version? I think there was a bug where you would rest for dozens of days at a time.

 

[dukeofwhales]

I don't think it's a bug, just that if you don't have any healers in your party you only recover a couple of HP per day, so you can end up 'resting until healed' for a very long time.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Sheesh, yeah, nevermind.

<-

 

[kris]

As optional content? why not?

That's still bad design.

Why? you just use the "design" word as the "allah akhbar" of Josh Sawyer. But why is it bad design?

Is it bad design to have a tank in a wargame? Because you will need a hard counter against it. Shall you just skip it because players can't defeat it with their combat knife?
Is it bad design to have a ghost in a fantasy game. Because you will need a hard counter against it.

No. I would say bad design is if you make a road with curves on an open plain just to make it more difficult. Just like it is bad design making a road straight over a mountain if you can go around it.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Wild Shape appears at level 5 and is once a day. Whoop-de-doop. Without it, a druid is a shitty caster or a shitty fighter. Do you seriously think that no-one else has played D&D, Lhynn?

deuxhero your mage prepares two color sprays. That's two fights out of possibly five or ten or more and it's effects are negated by a successful saving throw. Better choose very carefully when to use them. Also, depending on edition, mage might only have a single spell slot at level one.

Could you two please stop this pointless wanking over magic being so über at all stages of every D&D game of all editions? It's simply not true.

Even if this wasn't true, there is one fatal flaw: Fighters have limited resources too and without casters, they can't replenish them short of waiting around for days (months at higher levels).

True, but fighter is not going to get damaged as easily as caster classes (multi-classes aside, of course) and there is such a thing as Heal skill in third edition, and it existed in 2nd edition as well, if the optional rules were in play. True, it only doubles the natural regain rate, so at high levels you still have to rest for a long time if you have no healing available.

 

[Lhynn]

Wild Shape appears at level 5 and is once a day. Whoop-de-doop. Without it, a druid is a shitty caster or a shitty fighter. Do you seriously think that no-one else has played D&D, Lhynn?

Yes. you are obviously ignorant or retarded.
Duration is huge, at lvl 6 you can use it 2ce and at 7 3 times, at 8 you can use it all day long. You can get bonuses to attributes that are easily among the +20, and thats without
counting extraordinary abilities gained, plus druids are a feat away from being able to cast their spells even in that form.

So you have a free ability that by mid levels is better than everything the figher has and will ever have. As i said, low levels are not the problem, but after lvl 5 the game breaks for the casters and it starts sucking for noncasters.

 

[GarfunkeL]

We're making progress, you can actually admit that non-casters can be fun to play under certain conditions. It's certainly a far cry from your original stance.

This problem was solved in the early editions by making fighters into warlords/kings, ruling fiefdoms and waging war, changing the scope and focus of the game. Which I still think is a good idea. Certainly better than just doing dungeon-romping for 20 levels. Which is a common problem for CRPG's, and apparently for some P&P groups, considering the amount of whining that martial classes are boring and useless.

You only need to "balance" every class to be equally "fun" or "micro" when you design a single-player game with no team/party/henchmen. Which no edition of D&D has been, and IE games were not and PoE will not be either.

I didn't play it yet, but didn't NWN have only the PC character?

Yes, though you get a single henchman. With Horders of Underdark, you could have two. NWN also mutilated lot of the 3.5 rules to make it work with RTwP and so on.

 

[Lhynn]

We're making progress, you can actually admit that non-casters can be fun to play under certain conditions. It's certainly a far cry from your original stance.

This problem was solved in the early editions by making fighters into warlords/kings, ruling fiefdoms and waging war, changing the scope and focus of the game. Which I still think is a good idea. Certainly better than just doing dungeon-romping for 20 levels. Which is a common problem for CRPG's, and apparently for some P&P groups, considering the amount of whining that martial classes are boring and useless.

You only need to "balance" every class to be equally "fun" or "micro" when you design a single-player game with no team/party/henchmen. Which no edition of D&D has been, and IE games were not and PoE will not be either.

I didn't play it yet, but didn't NWN have only the PC character?

Yes, though you get a single henchman. With Horders of Underdark, you could have two. NWN also mutilated lot of the 3.5 rules to make it work with RTwP and so on.

Am just talking about 3.0-5, earlier editions had their problems, but they weren as big. And the DM had a lot more room to change stuff, here you actually have to sit and houserule the shit out of it to have something somewhat playable. not worth it.

 

[deuxhero]

your mage prepares two color sprays. That's two fights out of possibly five or ten or more

1: He has cantrips (daze is very nice) and another spell if a specialist.
2: The pnp material is pretty clear you are expected to fight ~4 equal CR encounters a day. If a fighter faces "five or ten" fights at level 1 he is very much dead because his healing will run out long before even with a cleric who does nothing but heal, so this is hardly a mage problem.

And that's JUST combat. The fighter is absolutly useless outside of combat, while the mage breaks through problems with ease.

 

[Azrael the cat]

And again both of you forget that spell slots are limited, as is resting. It's all fine and dandy to keep making endless lists of awesome spells - but it's quite pointless when you realize that the wizard has to select spells before entering the dungeon, and will have a very limited amount of spell slots. Unless we're talking epic levels, but that's a different ballgame.

Even at first level you have 2 first level spells, 3 if a specialist, and 3 cantrips as a wizard. Color Spray or grease will singly handly turn a fight around or make it no-contest and daze owns stuff. Past level 1 it's just a complete joke. Plus, unlike every cRPG, wizards can leave slots unprepared at the start of the day and prepare them with some downtime. Plus at first level the fighter will die VERY quickly (a grand total of ~12 HP, possibly less) and can't hit shit so everyone is weak.

Even if this wasn't true, there is one fatal flaw: Fighters have limited resources too and without casters, they can't replenish them short of waiting around for days (months at higher levels).

Yes, but still - in 2nd edition, a level 1 mage with optimum spell selection had statistically a 50% chance of surviving an encounter with a housecat

Mind you, that might be about right depending on the housecat. Of my two, one of them routinely kicks the crap out of the vet and his assistants so badly that they insist on me giving him a valium before his annual vaccinations, and EVEN SEDATED it's a process of them chucking a towel over him and taking him to the backroom for a prolonged struggle filled with wails of human anguish and curse words.

The other cat has a less than 50% chance against a mouse (making most mice better than a lvl 1 2nd edition AD&D mage with optimum spell selection). If he can get the mouse while it's running away from him (a rare occurance) he's fine, but usually the mouse will end up cornered against a door, and forced to turn around, get on its hind legs and give its best 'I'll fuck you up' pose (which only serves to make it look like a cute cartoon mouse), the cat will baulk and look desperately around for his badass brother to defeat the menacing foe.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Unless the warrior uses some kind of magic to make himself a better warrior- magic that is available only to him- then the warrior is always going to be a worse warrior than any magic class.

False. See the IE games.

Are we talking about the IE games where the most powerful class by a huge margin is fighter/mage?

There's no conceptual reason why mages should "have options" where fighters should have none, though. This was the great insight of D&D 4E. They should have different kind of options. Because otherwise all fighters do is hit things with their swords.

Actually, while the 2nd edition rules make the most powerful class a fighter/mage, the actual strongest class in IE games changes at each level group.

In BG1 the strongest class is a multiclass fighter-mage, where by BG2 the huge number of spell slots, increased utility spells and massively powerful save-or-die spells mean that the strongest character must max out the mage levels - so dual replaces multi, with just enough fighter levels that you can still reach the maximum mage level within the xp cap.

...but in ToB the emphasis shifts back to fighters (with a bit of magic) again. Everyone has huge boosting +4/5 weapons with multiple effects, enemies will generally make their saving throws, and bosses are generally immune to the most powerful types of spell.

 

[Alex]

Actually, while the 2nd edition rules make the most powerful class a fighter/mage, (snip...)

A multiclass fighter mage elf is decent, but far from the best. Level limits mean that they will never get 9th level spells, for even high attributes can't help multiclassed demi-humans (also, I think elfs can't get to level 17th as an MU even with high int). A dual classed human could be fine, depending on what level you changed, and whether you changed to fighter and M.U.. I mean, getting a stronghold, an army and area spells is a pretty good way to start painting the world map's hexes! But still, if you want versatility, making a M.U./Cleric is probably a better bet. Of course, if we are talking about Arthas, and you feel confident, you could try to go for the dual classed M.U./Psionicist. But even if your GM is playing Dark Sun with the assumption that the PCs always win, and always get more XP, ad infinitum, most groups will probably stop before you can get to 20th level on both classes.

By the way, to understand why different classes in D&D have such different power levels, it is important to understand how the game was envisioned to be played. If you keep playing, week after week, with the same PC, where there is little chance you will ever need to retire, or die, or where dying basically mean you make another P.C. with the same amount of XP, then of course this is going to be broken. But the idea here wasn't that. All the random generation, the requirements for belonging to a class or a race, the different X.P. needed to level ups, the maximum level for demi-humans, the reducing constitution for being ressurrected, all that together created a kind of gamble game. Every PC is basically a gamble the player can make, given his results on the random rolls. A set of rolls might be interesting because it would make a good M.U., for instance. Should you make a human M.U.? Like Azraed the Level 1 M.U. killer said, they are rather weak, and can easily die. It can be a whole lot of trouble getting them to the point where they are interesting. Maybe if you have several good attributes, you can make an elf. You will never get some of the coolest stuff, like wishes. But it is easier to make your character survive, and he will be a pretty cool character, even if he will never be the best mage around. Maybe you rolled really good strength? Maybe you could then start as a fighter and multicalls to M.U. later, though that takes even more time! Maybe you rolled some very specific stats, and you might be able to try some of the more exotic classes, like the paladin? Each character is a bet, and the bet continues throughout his life, with every adventure, every item you interact, every magic item you collect. A bad encounter with the deck of many things could fuck up your P.C. forever.

 

[GarfunkeL]

your mage prepares two color sprays. That's two fights out of possibly five or ten or more

1: He has cantrips (daze is very nice) and another spell if a specialist.
2: The pnp material is pretty clear you are expected to fight ~4 equal CR encounters a day. If a fighter faces "five or ten" fights at level 1 he is very much dead because his healing will run out long before even with a cleric who does nothing but heal, so this is hardly a mage problem.

And that's JUST combat. The fighter is absolutly useless outside of combat, while the mage breaks through problems with ease.

And those cantrips are extremely situational and daze is easily resisted and only lasts, what - 1 round? And no DM worth anything would just have four equal CR encounters and then call it a day. That's how you get five or ten fights. One classic is the single kobold with a crossbow, that gets the party to chase him, and then leads them into plenty of "fun" traps. And even in 1st edition, fighter was the one who bended bars and broke down doors and lifted gates and tossed dwarves across chasms - and that's without the non-combat profiencies and actual skills that later editions brought along.

 

[deuxhero]

Daze is a 50/50 shot if you hit touch AC (very low) at the worst and completely removes someone from a fight for the round (nothing else at level 1, short of death, can do that).

No DM will use the CR system directly but 10 fights that aren't complete pushovers in a day for a level 1 party is not going to happen (not without deaths anyways): The fighter does not have this infinite staying power you think he does. He has limited HP (1 maximimized d10 and a +2 from con is pretty typical) and at level 1 you can't afford heavier armor, so the differences between AC on anyone that can wear armor is just about 1+shield AC.

 

[Lhynn]

Actually, while the 2nd edition rules make the most powerful class a fighter/mage, (snip...)

A multiclass fighter mage elf is decent, but far from the best. Level limits mean that they will never get 9th level spells, for even high attributes can't help multiclassed demi-humans (also, I think elfs can't get to level 17th as an MU even with high int). A dual classed human could be fine, depending on what level you changed, and whether you changed to fighter and M.U.. I mean, getting a stronghold, an army and area spells is a pretty good way to start painting the world map's hexes! But still, if you want versatility, making a M.U./Cleric is probably a better bet. Of course, if we are talking about Arthas, and you feel confident, you could try to go for the dual classed M.U./Psionicist. But even if your GM is playing Dark Sun with the assumption that the PCs always win, and always get more XP, ad infinitum, most groups will probably stop before you can get to 20th level on both classes.

By the way, to understand why different classes in D&D have such different power levels, it is important to understand how the game was envisioned to be played. If you keep playing, week after week, with the same PC, where there is little chance you will ever need to retire, or die, or where dying basically mean you make another P.C. with the same amount of XP, then of course this is going to be broken. But the idea here wasn't that. All the random generation, the requirements for belonging to a class or a race, the different X.P. needed to level ups, the maximum level for demi-humans, the reducing constitution for being ressurrected, all that together created a kind of gamble game. Every PC is basically a gamble the player can make, given his results on the random rolls. A set of rolls might be interesting because it would make a good M.U., for instance. Should you make a human M.U.? Like Azraed the Level 1 M.U. killer said, they are rather weak, and can easily die. It can be a whole lot of trouble getting them to the point where they are interesting. Maybe if you have several good attributes, you can make an elf. You will never get some of the coolest stuff, like wishes. But it is easier to make your character survive, and he will be a pretty cool character, even if he will never be the best mage around. Maybe you rolled really good strength? Maybe you could then start as a fighter and multicalls to M.U. later, though that takes even more time! Maybe you rolled some very specific stats, and you might be able to try some of the more exotic classes, like the paladin? Each character is a bet, and the bet continues throughout his life, with every adventure, every item you interact, every magic item you collect. A bad encounter with the deck of many things could fuck up your P.C. forever.

Thats one of the reasons AD&D is so much better than D&D 3rd+

 

[Azrael the cat]

Daze is a 50/50 shot if you hit touch AC (very low) at the worst and completely removes someone from a fight for the round (nothing else at level 1, short of death, can do that).

No DM will use the CR system directly but 10 fights that aren't complete pushovers in a day for a level 1 party is not going to happen (not without deaths anyways): The fighter does not have this infinite staying power you think he does. He has limited HP (1 maximimized d10 and a +2 from con is pretty typical) and at level 1 you can't afford heavier armor, so the differences between AC on anyone that can wear armor is just about 1+shield AC.

In 2nd, 3rd and 3.5, Grease was repeatedly voted the most powerful lvl 1 mage spell at grognard conferences and the like. It's just got so much more flexibility than Daze - you can cast it on the handle of an opponent's weapon, or one of their feet, or the buckles holding their satchel of magic components, as well as the straight-up AoE-root spell from a standard cast.

 

[Arkeus]

In 2nd, 3rd and 3.5, Grease was repeatedly voted the most powerful lvl 1 mage spell at grognard conferences and the like. It's just got so much more flexibility than Daze - you can cast it on the handle of an opponent's weapon, or one of their feet, or the buckles holding their satchel of magic components, as well as the straight-up AoE-root spell from a standard cast.

Isn't Daze a level 0 (cantrip) spell though?

 

[Lhynn]

Ah, grease, i have stopped full infantry charges on their tracks with that lvl 1 spell, more efficiently than any lvl 20 fighter ever could. Full turtle formations broken because of it. with a bit of metamagic not even giants are safe.

A single mage could turn the tide of a battle so easily that anyone seriously considering a career in the army should actually be a mage, stupid as that may sound.

 

[deuxhero]

It was nice that Eberron shift military tactics to World War 1 style, knowing tight formations don't work in a world with Fireball.

Was glad to see PoE is closer to Renaissance than pesudo middle ages (though half the shit in those games is actually renaissance like Halberds ect...).

 

[kris]

It was nice that Eberron shift military tactics to World War 1 style, knowing tight formations don't work in a world with Fireball.

War evolve after circumstances. If fireball shooting mages is prevalent then countermeasures will appear depending on circumstances for battle/involved armies/mages.