Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

[AwesomeButton]

And I don't get what triggers you so much about him. You don't like Sawyer, ok. No one gives a shit.

What I found most fun about his reinventing the wheel was how in the span of a year he backtracked on all his innovations, as much as his totally incomprehensible (including to the developers) system would allow.

IMO, he should have just carbon copied the combat mechanics of BG/IWD. Instead, what he produced plays absolutely nothing like an Infinity Engine game with regards to combat, and for me this is the most important kickstarter promise irredeemably screwed up.

 

[Lilura]

So you think I'm triggered and dislike JES for asking a couple of Qs. You sound like a triggered fanboy.

 

[AwesomeButton]

So you think I'm triggered and dislike JES for asking a couple of Qs. You sound like a triggered fanboy.

That is how you are behaving. Throwing a tantrum as soon as I said something neutral about him.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I just don't get why this guy's narrative/he himself is so interesting to 'Dexers? The interest in CMB/narrative I can understand.

All of my questions are honest ones.

I don’t think anyone cares about the Josh Sawyer story. We do care about the games he makes.

Why so much Sawyer discussion? First, he makes a point of communicating directly with his audience. Submit a question to his Tumblr and there’s a decent chance he will answer it. Sawyer’s voluminous commentary gives us a lot to talk about. I have much to say about Tim Cain’s design philosophy, too, but Tim Cain doesn’t talk back. Sawyer does.

Second, the Deadfire beta is ongoing. So unlike the usual discussion on the codex, our opinions might actually matter to the finished game. And since he spent years iterating Pillars, this has been true for a very long time. These are purposeful discussions.

Those are the main reasons.

The other thing, of course, is that he’s worked on some excellent games. Surely I don’t need to enumerate the good qualities of IWD 1&2 to the infinity engine’s premier blogger. New Vegas is arguably the best open world RPG out there (sorry Piranha Bytes). And while Pillars 1 didn’t live up to the hype, it had plenty of promise.

As for knowledge of history, who gets a classical education these days? I hardly know anyone without a phd who can read Koine Greek. Josh is a genuine history dweeb—he made all the firearms in Pillars wheellocks, the beautiful bastard.

 

[Lilura]

That is how you are behaving. Throwing a tantrum as soon as I said something neutral about him.

What the? No, but whatever you'd like to think.

So what are your fave historical RPGs? Medieval-mythic stuff like Darklands and Bastard of Kosigan? Any good "hard-history" RPGs that come to mind?

Tim Cain doesn’t talk back. Sawyer does.

If that's true, Tim is wise not deigning to engage with plebs. Separation from fanbase is important.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I only recently played Darklands, at some point last year. It must have been a huge thing at the time it was released ('92).

I've had it in GoG for a lot of time before I installed it. I really liked it, though I've dropped it after a while. There was some farming involved in order to upgrade my gear, and I had to repeatedly go out hunting for bandits at night time. Eventually something else came along and I went into a different "phase", but I'll probably return to it at some point.

Other than that, no strictly "historical" RPGs I can think of.

Bastard of Kosigan, I hadn't heard of.

 

[Lilura]

RTwP combat system was a stinker, though. There are some decent Warband mods, like Gekokujo (Sengoku).

BoK is just a NWN series by a French modder and historian/novelist (mythic-German).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

He just happens to be a smart guy with a nuanced understanding of history, hence his ability to to make a game with semi-sympathetic fascists.

The more convincing evidence of Sawyer's non-SJWism isn't Caesar's Legion - it's the completely earnest depiction of religious Christianity in Honest Hearts.

But Jesus was the original social justice warrior. God bless him!

The more convincing evidence of Sawyer's non-SJWism isn't Caesar's Legion - it's the completely earnest depiction of religious Christianity in Honest Hearts.

Caesar's Legion is evidence that Sawyer isn't a SJW? You mean the completely evil faction with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, except for a few grudging comments that they protect their own caravans really well because it behooves them to do so?

Blaine, your inability to see how sensible the legion looks within the game world is proof that you’ve internalized the very values you claim to object to.

The legion has no redeeming qualities??? They have the single most redeeming quality in an anarchic, post apocalyptic wasteland: they provide order. Something, incidentally, that no other faction is capable of offering throughout the wasteland. They may do it with a lot of cruelty and brutality, but historically speaking, that’s how you make savage tribals into civilized people. Caesar found a model that works and he stuck with it. Given the massive number of raiders in the wasteland, his penchant for crucifiction isn’t evil, it’s sound policy. His admittedly hypocritical rejection of technology makes perfect sense in a world where technology nearly destroyed the human race.

They may have gone overboard with the legion’s misogyny and the slavery. But why would you assume those things make the legion evil unless you yourself are committed to social justice?

More important, Caesar is probably right that the NCR will collapse under its own weight: it’s become a bloated, inefficient plutocracy much like late Republican Rome, and if he doesn’t make it a dictatorship someone else will. Democracy does not work without public order. What good is a government that can’t protect its people? Historically speaking, freedom is a luxury.

Josh put all of this in the game. It’s a pretty stunning critique of democracy.

Honestly, I don’t think Sawyer would mind being called a social justice warrior, but that is not the purpose of his games.

Edit:

RTwP combat system was a stinker, though. There are some decent Warband mods, like Gekokujo (Sengoku).

Brytenwalda is good, as is the with fire and sword expansion.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I just don't get why this guy's narrative/he himself is so interesting to 'Dexers? The interest in CMB/narrative I can understand.

All of my questions are honest ones.

Some people can't help themselves, but they have to make everything political. I wish they were more dedicated about it, maybe then they'd figure out that there's someone they disagree with who makes their food and then they'll stop eating forever. Just can't enjoy something by a person who you may disagree with about on some unrelated matters anymore.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

I just don't get why this guy's narrative/he himself is so interesting to 'Dexers? The interest in CMB/narrative I can understand.

I blame Infinitron for putting him on spotlight.
Other than that, meh.

 

[Curious_Tongue]

History is for books and documentaries.

Not RPGs.

 

[Blaine]

Blaine, your inability to see how sensible the legion looks within the game world

How exactly did you reach this conclusion? I see all of that perfectly well.

They may have gone overboard with the legion’s misogyny and the slavery. But why would you assume those things make the legion evil unless you yourself are committed to social justice?

If you can't sense that the game's WRITERS (including Josh) considered the Legion to be thoroughly and irredeemably evil, then you're not terribly bright. It shines through like a beacon. "Gone overboard" is an understatement.

Josh put all of this in the game. It’s a pretty stunning critique of democracy.

Josh isn't stupid, and was aware that writing the Legion to be one-dimensionally evil would make him look like a buffoon/Bethesda employee. Yes, there's a veneer of justification for the Legion's existence and methodology, and some critique of other factions' flaws is aired. It's a false veneer—or to put it another way, they played Devil's advocate with an entire faction. Ultimately, Obsidian wrote and portrayed them as thoroughly evil. Individual Legionaries' motivations are nearly always debase, lustful, violent, etc.

I don't think Josh has nearly the chops that some people give him credit for, but I've never accused him of being either stupid or unsophisticated.

 

[CptMace]

Sawyer top 5

Spoiler

1. Pool of Radiance ("real DnD")
2. Darklands ("I love the game because I love history")
3. Fallout ("revolutionary freedom")
4. Baldur's Gate 2 ("epitome of Infinity Engine")
5. Battle Brothers ("the tactical battles are among the best")

Now just make a historical Darklands-like with BB combat, Fallout freedom/CC, pool radiance difficulty and BG2 amounts of content and that game might just sell like a 100k.

I'm sure it will go great. Like the Infinity Engline games spiritual successor where the combat had absolutely nothing in common with any Infinity Engine game, the story and writing were weaker than that of either Infinity Engine game, and the exploration was less interesting that that of any Infinity Engine game.

The witch hunt against obsidian/sawyer shills has reached such an absurd level, that people who write this are accused of being sawyerist within the day
Sometimes, when some of you talk about Sawyer, it looks like you're talking about an ex-girlfriend. Trying not to show that you're still obsessed despite the betrayal, pretending you don't care in the slightest. Like Lilura here.
Delightful.

 

[AwesomeButton]

RTwP combat system was a stinker, though. There are some decent Warband mods, like Gekokujo (Sengoku).

BoK is just a NWN series by a French modder and historian/novelist (mythic-German).

I've seen the Gekokujo mod, but haven't played it. This reminds me though, I have a good amount of time playing Brytenwalda, the official release, and also as a mod before it was released separately. It contains the results of some historical research as well. And with the right custom soundtrack of Celtic/old English/old Scandinavian music, it's very immersive.

History is for books and documentaries.

Not RPGs.

At the end of the day, yes. Yet games can be very useful for sparking someone's interest in studying history, same as watching a good WWII movie could make someone seek out a book that deals with an operation from the war. Games and movies are a good way to subversively make someone interested in an area in which he is normally not interested. If they are done in a way in which they can engage you - which should be the real challenge (for the game designer). How much actual historical research is needed to engage you is down to the individual player or viewer. At 15 y.o. AoEII was "historical" enough to get me engaged. Now I need something like War in the East.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Legends of Eisenwald leans well towards historical.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sawyer top 5

Spoiler

1. Pool of Radiance ("real DnD")
2. Darklands ("I love the game because I love history")
3. Fallout ("revolutionary freedom")
4. Baldur's Gate 2 ("epitome of Infinity Engine")
5. Battle Brothers ("the tactical battles are among the best")

Now just make a historical Darklands-like with BB combat, Fallout freedom/CC, pool radiance difficulty and BG2 amounts of content and that game might just sell like a 100k.

I'm sure it will go great. Like the Infinity Engline games spiritual successor where the combat had absolutely nothing in common with any Infinity Engine game, the story and writing were weaker than that of either Infinity Engine game, and the exploration was less interesting that that of any Infinity Engine game.

The witch hunt against obsidian/sawyer shills has reached such an absurd level, that people who write this are accused of being sawyerist within the day
Sometimes, when some of you talk about Sawyer, it looks like you're talking about an ex-girlfriend. Trying not to show that you're still obsessed despite the betrayal, pretending you don't care in the slightest. Like Lilura here.
Delightful.

I'm talking about facts, not girlfriends. Which of the three statements I made is untrue?
Is PoE's combat in any way resembling IE combat?
Is PoE's story or writing better than BG/IWD? I won't even attempt to compare to the depth of PS:T's writing, even though it was heavily name-dropped during the Kickstarter campaign, and that's a verifiable fact.
Is PoE's exploration better than that of BG?

 

[CptMace]

I think you misunderstood my post. Which is probably my fault to begin with.
I agree with what I quoted btw, but that wasn't my point :p

So you think I'm triggered and dislike JES for asking a couple of Qs. You sound like a triggered fanboy.

That's what I was talking about.

 

[Brancaleone]

And I don't get what triggers you so much about him. You don't like Sawyer, ok. No one gives a shit.

What I found most fun about his reinventing the wheel was how in the span of a year he backtracked on all his innovations, as much as his totally incomprehensible (including to the developers) system would allow.

IMO, he should have just carbon copied the combat mechanics of BG/IWD. Instead, what he produced plays absolutely nothing like an Infinity Engine game with regards to combat, and for me this is the most important kickstarter promise irredeemably screwed up.

From the beginning of PoE, I had the distinct impression that most of their choices were functional to define their own IP with the minimum amount of effort but at the same time to shield them from any possible legal repercussions. Of course, such choices very rarely happen to align with gameplay effectiveness, and the currennt backtracking is the consequence of it.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think you misunderstood my post. Which is probably my fault to begin with.
I agree with what I quoted btw, but that wasn't my point :p

Ah, friendly fire then. Well, I'm not a Sawyer shill, that much is clear, but I appreciate the fact that he is trying, and he is doing research, unlike other, much more `successful` game designers.

Spiritual successors and Enhanced editions are both dirty business, especially if the emulators decide that they know better and will "right the wrongs" of the original games.

And I don't get what triggers you so much about him. You don't like Sawyer, ok. No one gives a shit.

What I found most fun about his reinventing the wheel was how in the span of a year he backtracked on all his innovations, as much as his totally incomprehensible (including to the developers) system would allow.

IMO, he should have just carbon copied the combat mechanics of BG/IWD. Instead, what he produced plays absolutely nothing like an Infinity Engine game with regards to combat, and for me this is the most important kickstarter promise irredeemably screwed up.

From the beginning of PoE, I had the distinct impression that most of their choices were functional to define their own IP with the minimum amount of effort but at the same time to shield them from any possible legal repercussions. Of course, such choices very rarely happen to align with gameplay effectiveness, and the currennt backtracking is the consequence of it.

Yeah, I'm curious too, if there would have been any danger of Obsidian being sued for plagiarizing the implementation of D&D rules for real-time combat in an Infinity Engine game :D

 

[Blaine]

From the beginning of PoE, I had the distinct impression that most of their choices were functional to define their own IP with the minimum amount of effort but at the same time to shield them from any possible legal repercussions. Of course, such choices very rarely happen to align with gameplay effectiveness, and the currennt backtracking is the consequence of it.

A window into Obsidian's rarefied creative process:

"Guys, how can we distinguish our bog-standard Tolkien-derivative fantasy races from the hundreds that came before them?"

"Yeah, so orcs, but like, at the beach! Dude, have you ever heard of beach bum orcs? This shit's original. Make them a bit like the Maori or something, that's it."

"MAKE THE HOBBITS ALSO BE CATS! WITH EAR TUFTS!"

"Half-elementals are pretty cool in D&D, but that's a pretty specific concept. Okay, let's make them half-GODS... uh, throw, like, death and moon shit in there, we can't have the alchemical elements all present at once."

"Perfectly Regular Dwarves, right? But some of them LIVE IN THE WOODS LIKE ELVES! And the elves who aren't wood elves are SNOW elves, like the Danes and Swedes."

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I'm talking about facts, not girlfriends. Which of the three statements I made is untrue?
Is PoE's combat in any way resembling IE combat?
Is PoE's story or writing better than BG/IWD? I won't even attempt to compare to the depth of PS:T's writing, even though it was heavily name-dropped during the Kickstarter campaign, and that's a verifiable fact.
Is PoE's exploration better than that of BG?

Honestly, I think it has a better story than the Icewind Dale games, but they were dungeon crawlers where the story was sort of beside the point. Was the writing better than Baldur’s Gate? The first one, sure. I don’t think BG1 ages well; obviously Pillars had worse writing than BG2. Personally, I enjoyed the metaphysical whodunnit element of Pillars’ story.

I don’t think Pillars had bad exploration, there just wasn’t enough of it. The world building was very generic, true, but that was the point of the Kickstarter pitch—it was generic for commercial reasons, not because of Sawyer’s vision. They might have done something more interesting if Obsidian hadn’t been strapped for cash.

As for combat, tough to say. You couldn’t put your martial classes on autopilot and you got a lot less out of your spellcasters. More abilities overall. But there were plenty of similarities beside RTwP. I thought combat was okay in Pillars, although admittedly, I didn’t play it until after they patched it extensively with the white march expansion.

I’m a sucker for isometric RPGs with decent dialogue. The true test will be Deadfire. If it’s not substantially better than Pillars, I will eat my hat (and also become much less
sanguine about Josh’s future projects).

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Sorry to double post.

Blaine, your inability to see how sensible the legion looks within the game world

How exactly did you reach this conclusion? I see all of that perfectly well.

They may have gone overboard with the legion’s misogyny and the slavery. But why would you assume those things make the legion evil unless you yourself are committed to social justice?

If you can't sense that the game's WRITERS (including Josh) considered the Legion to be thoroughly and irredeemably evil, then you're not terribly bright. It shines through like a beacon. "Gone overboard" is an understatement.

Josh put all of this in the game. It’s a pretty stunning critique of democracy.

Josh isn't stupid, and was aware that writing the Legion to be one-dimensionally evil would make him look like a buffoon/Bethesda employee. Yes, there's a veneer of justification for the Legion's existence and methodology, and some critique of other factions' flaws is aired. It's a false veneer—or to put it another way, they played Devil's advocate with an entire faction. Ultimately, Obsidian wrote and portrayed them as thoroughly evil. Individual Legionaries' motivations are nearly always debase, lustful, violent, etc.

I don't think Josh has nearly the chops that some people give him credit for, but I've never accused him of being either stupid or unsophisticated.

I felt the writers were a lot more ambivalent about the legion than this. Maybe the better term is schizophrenic. Sure, there are points where it seems the writers tried to portray them as pure evil or used them to play devil’s advocate for fascism. But at other moments, the game takes a more evenhanded approach, like all the dialogue about the legion with Raul, many of the less bloodthirsty legion officers, and the first convo with Caesar himself. Also, I’m perfectly comfortable blaming Bethesda for pushing to make the legion seem more evil.

Josh has said he wanted to flesh them out more and just didn’t have enough time. I doubt that meant making them more cartoonishly evil.

 

[Blaine]

Well, it was 2009-2010, after all. The SJW cancer hadn't yet fully metastasized.

It's quite true however that Obsidian were pressed for time—and when you're pressed for time, you put more work into the non-bad factions, because that's the work most people are going to see.

What I'd like to have seen for Caesar's Legion play would have been the Courier working as a specialized spy for Caesar, interwoven with other "normal" quest lines. For example, you could play There Stands The Grass (Vault 22) mostly normally for 90% of it, then have an additional scripted option to bring the research to Caesar instead, or to arrange to have Hildern kidnapped in the night (fade to black after ending the dialogue) and bring the whole shebang to Caesar.

In that way, the Legion content would have piggybacked on much of the "main" content, and in my view been much more exciting and satisfying, knowing that you were playing everyone else for a fool.

Of course, NPCs can psychically sense your reputation with other factions in New Vegas unless you're wearing a disguise, but that could have been tweaked to keep your Legion rep secret until late in the main story.

 

[FreeKaner]

Historical fiction sucks, honestly. There is no point to it, history already exists and requires no fiction to be indulged or researched. Moreover when a person or a group of people attempt to create historical fiction, they will not be able to even come close to depth, complexity and variety real history offers, after all its a story of countless people.

However a low fantasy fiction interwoven in historicity and verisimilitude could be extremely appealing if the intricacies of loose belief systems, court intrigue and faction politics were to be applied successfully. However that is not about a game being historical, that's about a game being in-depth.

 

[CptMace]

You don't like stuff like HBO's Rome series ?