Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

[M. AQVILA]

Was that just "agenda" for PoE marketing purposes, or does he srsly think that?

He's exaggerating.

More relevantly, Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil required the player to create entire parties at the adventure's outset. "The games were tuned for D&D veterans. There are tons of ways you can make strategic errors. There are tons of ways you can make bad parties. What happens is 20 to 30 hours into the game, you can't go any further."

"Yes, the player made the error but we placed a high demand on them," Sawyer said.

I don't think you have to cut the option of making parties at all! But if a game asks the player to make a party, the system design should not be such that new players have to be extremely prescient and forward-thinking to avoid making a terrible group of characters. For example, in 1st Edition AD&D, demihumans often had level limits. If you missed this fact, you could make a totally viable character -- right up until you hit the leveling wall. Once that happens, you're essentially stuck.

Very few non-MMO RPGs allow character respec, but I think character respec is another good way to address balance range issues in games with a huge amount of character variety. You thought it was a good idea to make a party of Genasi Bards called Earth, Wind, and Fire. It was not a good idea, so if you accept a small cost, you can rebuild some -- or all -- aspects of your characters.

What the fuck? I was a complete noob and didn't even know what D&D or even tabletop RPGs were and I finished the game just fine.

 

[Nael]

Was that just "agenda" for PoE marketing purposes, or does he srsly think that?

He's exaggerating.

More relevantly, Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil required the player to create entire parties at the adventure's outset. "The games were tuned for D&D veterans. There are tons of ways you can make strategic errors. There are tons of ways you can make bad parties. What happens is 20 to 30 hours into the game, you can't go any further."

"Yes, the player made the error but we placed a high demand on them," Sawyer said.

I don't think you have to cut the option of making parties at all! But if a game asks the player to make a party, the system design should not be such that new players have to be extremely prescient and forward-thinking to avoid making a terrible group of characters. For example, in 1st Edition AD&D, demihumans often had level limits. If you missed this fact, you could make a totally viable character -- right up until you hit the leveling wall. Once that happens, you're essentially stuck.

Very few non-MMO RPGs allow character respec, but I think character respec is another good way to address balance range issues in games with a huge amount of character variety. You thought it was a good idea to make a party of Genasi Bards called Earth, Wind, and Fire. It was not a good idea, so if you accept a small cost, you can rebuild some -- or all -- aspects of your characters.

What the Hell? I'm not even all that great at vidya and I did a solo run of ToEE with a spear-wielding war priest. It's not a hard game to figure out.

 

[LizardWizard]

Sawyer top 5

Spoiler

1. Pool of Radiance ("real DnD")
2. Darklands ("I love the game because I love history")
3. Fallout ("revolutionary freedom")
4. Baldur's Gate 2 ("epitome of Infinity Engine")
5. Battle Brothers ("the tactical battles are among the best")

Now just make a historical Darklands-like with BB combat, Fallout freedom/CC, pool radiance difficulty and BG2 amounts of content and that game might just sell like a 100k.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I did a solo run of ToEE with a spear-wielding war priest. It's not a hard game to figure out.

Eh, I’m skeptical. This is pretty well documented as one of the most broken 3.x builds out there. You’re saying you just stumbled across it? Certainly possible, but improbable.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Sawyer top 5

Spoiler

1. Pool of Radiance ("real DnD")
2. Darklands ("I love the game because I love history")
3. Fallout ("revolutionary freedom")
4. Baldur's Gate 2 ("epitome of Infinity Engine")
5. Battle Brothers ("the tactical battles are among the best")

Now just make a historical Darklands-like with BB combat, Fallout freedom/CC, pool radiance difficulty and BG2 amounts of content and that game might just sell like a 100k.

I'm sure it will go great. Like the Infinity Engline games spiritual successor where the combat had absolutely nothing in common with any Infinity Engine game, the story and writing were weaker than that of either Infinity Engine game, and the exploration was less interesting that that of any Infinity Engine game.

 

[Nael]

I did a solo run of ToEE with a spear-wielding war priest. It's not a hard game to figure out.

Eh, I’m skeptical. This is pretty well documented as one of the most broken 3.x builds out there. You’re saying you just stumbled across it? Certainly possible, but improbable.

Not 100% randomly stumbled across it, no. But I read about it on a thread here actually. I didn't copy a build verbatim anywhere though... Just "inspired" I guess you could say.

 

[Roguey]

Also, ToEE >>> PoE

You gotta be a turn-based loving grog to say ToEE has better content than Pillars or any of the Infinity Engine games. Even when it comes to combat, I found Pillars more demanding.

What the fuck? I was a complete noob and didn't even know what D&D or even tabletop RPGs were and I finished the game just fine.

Sounds like you're pretty good at understanding role playing games. Most people aren't, and Josh has a lot of experience watching testers and his fellow designers to back up his claims.

 

[Lilura]

Roguey, do you realize that your creepy obsession with JES is actually working against his narrative?

I'm not one of them, but a lot of 'Dexers dislike JES narrative even more due to your commentation on everything he says.

Just wondering.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Roguey, do you realize that your creepy obsession with JES is actually working against his narrative?

I'm not one of them, but a lot of 'Dexers dislike JES narrative even more due to your commentation on everything he says.

Just wondering.

I usually agree with his reasoning when watching/reading his justification for doing something, but rarely liked the end results, in PoE at least. I also like him for being a trained historian, I think this keeps him more down to earth in some respects than is common for most game designers.

 

[FeelTheRads]

He's exaggerating.

Look for that quote about their retarded testers too. I probably was thinking more of that, although the one you posted is pretty much what I said as well.

If you can't fuck up, if everything's equally viable, what's the point?

I always thought figuring out what works better is a big part of the fun of RPGs. But clearly I was wrong... because uhm... game design schools and newfags raised on MMOs whining for any % point not in the "correct" place.

Apparently the fun is in worshiping the designer when he balances the game correctly and spitting on him when he does not, not in actually playing the game.

 

[Blaine]

I can't wait to play a black inquisitor, a black Egyptian prince, a black horse warrior, a black landsknecht, a black gladiator, a black hunter-gatherer, or a black courtesan in the next mechanically homogeneous Sawyer masterpiece that really demonstrates they were trying very hard to write all of the dialogue real goodly and smartly and extremely, extremely cleverly.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

He's exaggerating.

Look for that quote about their retarded testers too. I probably was thinking more of that, although the one you posted is pretty much what I said as well.

If you can't fuck up, if everything's equally viable, what's the point?

I always thought figuring out what works better is a big part of the fun of RPGs. But clearly I was wrong... because uhm... game design schools and newfags raised on MMOs whining for any % point not in the "correct" place.

Apparently the fun is in worshiping the designer when he balances the game correctly and spitting on him when he does not, not in actually playing the game.

Here’s what I don’t get. If Sawyer is going to let you respec your character, like in Pillars, why would he need to do so much balancing? Shouldn’t non-viable builds be fine as long as you can pay an innkeeper to reset your stats/skills/feats?

 

[Blaine]

Here’s what I don’t get. If Sawyer is going to let you respec your character, like in Pillars, why would he need to do so much balancing?

Asking why Sawyer needs to do so much balancing is like asking why a baby needs to do so much crying, why a lioness needs to do so much hunting, or why Infinitron needs to do so much shilling.

It's simply in their natures. They can't help themselves.

 

[Lilura]

I usually agree with his reasoning when watching/reading his justification for doing something, but rarely liked the end results, in PoE at least. I also like him for being a trained historian, I think this keeps him more down to earth in some respects than is common for most game designers.

I don't think his narrative, much less he himself, is interesting enough to even commentate on.

I haven't even followed his narrative since the days he was a newbie, posting on GameFAQs.

Also, being impressed by basic historical knowledge - that anyone with a classical education far exceeds - is a bit lame, imo.

 

[Blaine]

Also, being impressed by basic historical knowledge - that anyone with a classical education far exceeds - is a bit lame, imo.

The problem with trying to be like Tolkien and mine history and literature for fictional gold is that it only works if you're an English gentleman of fine taste and breeding, and not a latte-sipping ultra-liberal vegan hipster who began his career as Black Isle's amateur web designer/backup janitor if Diego had the week off.

 

[Lilura]

Yeah, no shit. I know from whence he came. Which is one reason why I wonder why he gets so much "air-time" on the 'Dex. Maybe Infinitron and Roguey can enlighten me.

 

[Infinitron]

He just happens to be a smart guy with a nuanced understanding of history, hence his ability to to make a game with semi-sympathetic fascists.

The more convincing evidence of Sawyer's non-SJWism isn't Caesar's Legion - it's the completely earnest depiction of religious Christianity in Honest Hearts.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Which is one reason why I wonder why he gets so much "air-time" on the 'Dex.

Supposedly because he """cares""" about mechanics which none of the designers before him that created much better games did.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I usually agree with his reasoning when watching/reading his justification for doing something, but rarely liked the end results, in PoE at least. I also like him for being a trained historian, I think this keeps him more down to earth in some respects than is common for most game designers.

I don't think his narrative, much less he himself, is interesting enough to even commentate on.

I haven't even followed his narrative since the days he was a newbie, posting on GameFAQs.

Also, being impressed by basic historical knowledge - that anyone with a classical education far exceeds - is a bit lame, imo.

Huh?

I don't know what you understand under "his narrative". If you mean his views and theories on what makes a game interesting, that's what I meant under "his reasoning". If it's something else you meant, then I don't really care.

Your opinion about Sawyer himself isn't of any consequence to me, and probably to anyone. I don't know the guy, and never pretended that I do, so, no opinion on his personality.

I never said I was "impressed" with his historical knowledge, which you seem to be implying. I do sympathise with him at times, because I have studied history too.

Overall, your response has nothing in common with what I said, so I don't even know if you were replying to me or just wanted to vent against Sawyer for some reason.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Shoulda been on a pit stop crew if he cared for mechanics that much.

 

[Lilura]

I heard in PoE he reinvented the wheel, but omitted the spokes; so much so, that a few scrubs banded together to give him advice on mechanics?

 

[Blaine]

The more convincing evidence of Sawyer's non-SJWism isn't Caesar's Legion - it's the completely earnest depiction of religious Christianity in Honest Hearts.

Caesar's Legion is evidence that Sawyer isn't a SJW? You mean the completely evil faction with absolutely no redeeming qualities whatsoever, except for a few grudging comments that they protect their own caravans really well because it behooves them to do so?

What about the Followers, the faction that the character Josh wrote just happens to belong to, who have no ethical flaws whatsoever and are completely good?

His earnest depiction of religious Christianity? You mean the guy who says (and I quote) that killing an entire tribe is "just another chore" as long as it's the will of the Lord? Also, Mormonism is a relatively tiny offshoot of Christianity with stark dogmatic differences, like magic underpants and a prophet who is the founder of Mormonism.

Sometimes you have absolutely not even a single fucking clue what you're talking about. What a dumbass.

 

[Infinitron]

Go to sleep Blaine

 

[Blaine]

Will you have a counterargument that uses actual words by the time I wake up, or are ratings all you're capable of?

I've actually been replaying New Vegas for the past two weeks and have 600+ hours in it. I know every line of dialogue, and am intimately familiar with every faction. There is no possible counterargument because you are, plain and simply, wrong.

 

[Lilura]

I just don't get why this guy's narrative/he himself is so interesting to 'Dexers? The interest in CMB/narrative I can understand.

All of my questions are honest ones.