Vapourware Josh Sawyer wants to make a historical RPG

[Roguey]

Josh would really love to do a turn based game. We've talked about him getting the chance in his next game. Next goal will be getting that one funded.

I would be happy if Pillars 2 bombed, I'd probably be happy if this is greenlighted. Looks like a win-win for me.

 

[Morgoth]

TB + Historical setting?

NO FUN ALLOWED indeed.

 

[Sizzle]

 

[Chris Avelltwo]

Josh would really love to do a turn based game. We've talked about him getting the chance in his next game. Next goal will be getting that one funded.

I would be happy if Pillars 2 bombed, I'd probably be happy if this is greenlighted. Looks like a win-win for me.

Would you REALLY be happy if Deadfire flopped? Think of the implications of what you're saying. I see you're supposedly a fan of Josh Sawyer, but do you understand his reputation would be destroyed if this game bombs? Not only would there probably not be a POE3, there's a good chance his historical RPG would get canned too... people could even lose their jobs because of it. It's happened before.

I mean, Deadfire isn't particularly the game I want Obsidian to be working on it, but regardless of what you or I want this IS the game they're making at the moment. Anything they might do further down the road is going to be impacted by how well this game does. So by all means, be as disinterested in it as you like, but you should still hope it becomes a smash hit if only for the sake of the future games to come. More money in Obsidian's coffers means more risky experimental niche projects like Sawyer's historical RPG, and satisfied crowdfunders are more likely to be repeat crowdfunders. That's why we need Deadfire to succeed. If it doesn't, then the historical RPG will likely be the first thing on the chopping block. Feargus seems to have been very reluctant to approve of it in the first place, so let's be hoping for the best instead of hoping for failure. Seriously, what kind of Sawyer/Obsidian fan are you? It would not be "win-win" for you, or for anyone; it would be lose-lose.

 

[AW8]

That username :D

 

[Infinitron]

I would expect somebody with that username to be edgier.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Didn't Feargus say that he's the one who bothers JES to make the historical RPG?

 

[Jarpie]

I wouldn't mind medieval-type of setting, wouldn't get really hot and bothered about french revolutionary setting, always found it kinda boring, but then it's french :D

 

[SausageInYourFace]

Didn't Feargus say that he's the one who bothers JES to make the historical RPG?

Its the other way round, Josh bugged Fearg about it and afaik he is allowed to do it after PoE2. But the newfag is completely right, if PoE2 flops, things might change and the historical RPG might not get made at all, particularly considering latest developments on the market.

 

[vonAchdorf]

I assume it's this way, but I remember reading that Feargus recently suggested, that he always has been supporting the idea, which does sound rather unlikely.

 

[Roguey]

Would you REALLY be happy if Deadfire flopped? Think of the implications of what you're saying. I see you're supposedly a fan of Josh Sawyer, but do you understand his reputation would be destroyed if this game bombs? Not only would there probably not be a POE3, there's a good chance his historical RPG would get canned too... people could even lose their jobs because of it. It's happened before.

I mean, Deadfire isn't particularly the game I want Obsidian to be working on it, but regardless of what you or I want this IS the game they're making at the moment. Anything they might do further down the road is going to be impacted by how well this game does. So by all means, be as disinterested in it as you like, but you should still hope it becomes a smash hit if only for the sake of the future games to come. More money in Obsidian's coffers means more risky experimental niche projects like Sawyer's historical RPG, and satisfied crowdfunders are more likely to be repeat crowdfunders. That's why we need Deadfire to succeed. If it doesn't, then the historical RPG will likely be the first thing on the chopping block. Feargus seems to have been very reluctant to approve of it in the first place, so let's be hoping for the best instead of hoping for failure. Seriously, what kind of Sawyer/Obsidian fan are you? It would not be "win-win" for you, or for anyone; it would be lose-lose.

By win-win I meant

If Deadfire is a success and the historical game gets the go-ahead, I win.

If Deadfire is a failure then I get the pleasure of seeing a game I don't like bombing, so I still win.

They're both bittersweet victory conditions.

 

[Quillon]

Would you REALLY be happy if Deadfire flopped? Think of the implications of what you're saying. I see you're supposedly a fan of Josh Sawyer, but do you understand his reputation would be destroyed if this game bombs? Not only would there probably not be a POE3, there's a good chance his historical RPG would get canned too... people could even lose their jobs because of it. It's happened before.

I mean, Deadfire isn't particularly the game I want Obsidian to be working on it, but regardless of what you or I want this IS the game they're making at the moment. Anything they might do further down the road is going to be impacted by how well this game does. So by all means, be as disinterested in it as you like, but you should still hope it becomes a smash hit if only for the sake of the future games to come. More money in Obsidian's coffers means more risky experimental niche projects like Sawyer's historical RPG, and satisfied crowdfunders are more likely to be repeat crowdfunders. That's why we need Deadfire to succeed. If it doesn't, then the historical RPG will likely be the first thing on the chopping block. Feargus seems to have been very reluctant to approve of it in the first place, so let's be hoping for the best instead of hoping for failure. Seriously, what kind of Sawyer/Obsidian fan are you? It would not be "win-win" for you, or for anyone; it would be lose-lose.

By win-win I meant

If Deadfire is a success and the historical game gets the go-ahead, I win.

If Deadfire is a failure then I get the pleasure of seeing a game I don't like bombing, so I still win.

They're both bittersweet victory conditions.

Deadfire will be a huge success and Feargus will convince Josh to finish "the trilogy"...it's a lose-lose for you :D

 

[Roguey]

Deadfire will be a huge success and Feargus will convince Josh to finish "the trilogy"...it's a lose-lose for you :D

There were only two Baldur's Gate games, with the conflict set-up in the first game (that Highlander-esque "there can be only one" [p.s. here's one of BG's original artists outright acknowledging that Sarevok was a rip-off of The Kurgan) resolved in the second game's expansion.

Pillars of Eternity didn't set up any conflicts that the player character would have to resolve. I just can't see Sawyer doing a "The Watcher finishes the fight with Woedica" plot.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Would you REALLY be happy if Deadfire flopped? Think of the implications of what you're saying. I see you're supposedly a fan of Josh Sawyer, but do you understand his reputation would be destroyed if this game bombs? Not only would there probably not be a POE3, there's a good chance his historical RPG would get canned too... people could even lose their jobs because of it. It's happened before.

I mean, Deadfire isn't particularly the game I want Obsidian to be working on it, but regardless of what you or I want this IS the game they're making at the moment. Anything they might do further down the road is going to be impacted by how well this game does. So by all means, be as disinterested in it as you like, but you should still hope it becomes a smash hit if only for the sake of the future games to come. More money in Obsidian's coffers means more risky experimental niche projects like Sawyer's historical RPG, and satisfied crowdfunders are more likely to be repeat crowdfunders. That's why we need Deadfire to succeed. If it doesn't, then the historical RPG will likely be the first thing on the chopping block. Feargus seems to have been very reluctant to approve of it in the first place, so let's be hoping for the best instead of hoping for failure. Seriously, what kind of Sawyer/Obsidian fan are you? It would not be "win-win" for you, or for anyone; it would be lose-lose.

By win-win I meant

If Deadfire is a success and the historical game gets the go-ahead, I win.

If Deadfire is a failure then I get the pleasure of seeing a game I don't like bombing, so I still win.

They're both bittersweet victory conditions.

what do you have against Deadfire? It's PoE1 gameplay + an actually cool setting.

 

[Quillon]

Prolly he's afraid of open seas/dormant volcanoes.

Less likely: the party size change, level draining & loss of vancian was too much for him to handle.

 

[AN4RCHID]

I'm still hoping the fans will bitch loudly enough to force Sawyer to reverse the Vancian thing.

 

[Somberlain]

what do you have against Deadfire?

Roguey is Guido Henkel.

 

[Roguey]

I'm still hoping the fans will bitch loudly enough to force Sawyer to reverse the Vancian thing.

The best case scenario is that after many months and patches, he significantly lowers how many per-encounter spells you can cast in combat.

That doesn't solve the removal of health though, which is an unwinnable fight he set up for himself because some dummies can't comprehend two bars.

 

[Delterius]

Pillars of Eternity didn't set up any conflicts that the player character would have to resolve. I just can't see Sawyer doing a "The Watcher finishes the fight with Woedica" plot.

It could have though, if it focused on the Watcher's reincarnations and their relationship with Thaos. Kinda like Mask of the Betrayal, but whereas the latter was about the eternal reocurrence of a role -- that of the curse -- Pillars could have been about the individual characters over centuries of reincarnations. Instead it spends way too much time and effort just estabilishing random political facts about the world.

 

[Sizzle]

Pillars of Eternity didn't set up any conflicts that the player character would have to resolve. I just can't see Sawyer doing a "The Watcher finishes the fight with Woedica" plot.

It could have though, if it focused on the Watcher's reincarnations and their relationship with Thaos. Kinda like Mask of the Betrayal, but whereas the latter was about the eternal reocurrence of a role -- that of the curse -- Pillars could have been about the individual characters over centuries of reincarnations. Instead it spends way too much time and effort just estabilishing random political facts about the world.

That possibility (that the PC's reincarnations and Thaos crossed paths many times before) was offhandedly referenced in one conversation near the end of the game (don't know if it's one of those things they forgot to edit out, or what), but I completely agree that doing it like that would have resulted in a much stronger game, both narratively, and from a role-playing perspective.

As it stands now, Thaos is just one guy who screwed you over in one lifetime (and since then you've probably had dozens) several thousand years ago. It's unlikely that's the worst thing that ever happened to you in all those lives.

 

[Delterius]

That's the thing though, it would have been one actual focus for the narrative. As things stand, Pillars is a crescendo of people dealing with Waidwen's Legacy. There's the personal drama in Gilded Vale, the political drama in Defiance Bay and the divine contest in Twin Elms. Its a build up where NPCs point you in the direction of a guy who may be able to keep you from going mad.

The plot itself is workable. However, nothing really builds from one another. Each of the above plot lines are whole stories unto themselves. What strings them together is the passage of the antagonist, everything being part of the checklist required to empower Woedica. That is why I think focusing more on Thaos himself and creating a strong relationship with the PC would have been the best course of action.

 

[Sizzle]

That's the thing though, it would have been one actual focus for the narrative. As things stand, Pillars is a crescendo of people dealing with Waidwen's Legacy. There's the personal drama in Gilded Vale, the political drama in Defiance Bay and the divine contest in Twin Elms. Its a build up where NPCs point you in the direction of a guy who may be able to keep you from going mad.

The plot itself is workable. However, nothing really builds from one another. Each of the above plot lines are whole stories unto themselves. What strings them together is the passage of the antagonist, everything being part of the checklist required to empower Woedica. That is why I think focusing more on Thaos himself and creating a strong relationship with the PC would have been the best course of action.

Definitely.

Also, I would have liked if "The Watcher's Madness" had a bigger story/mechanics pay off. All you get out of it is "Dude, you look like shit. Haven't been sleeping so well, huh?", which isn't interesting or threatening.

It would have been fun if some later quests (for example, the ones in Twin Elms, that's in Act III) had you tripping out (and not just flashbacking out) when talking to people, or getting whispers from their previous lives (something like the Malkavian in V:TMB) - that would have reinforced the urgency of finding Thaos.

 

[Delterius]

Also, I would have liked if "The Watcher's Madness" had a bigger story/mechanics pay off. All you get out of it is "Dude, you look like shit. Haven't been sleeping so well, huh?", which isn't interesting or threatening.

Sure, I agree that something like this would make for a better story. But keep in mind that it would require a rewrite. The reason why the Spirit Meter works so well in MotB is because the curse is a constant struggle with the hunger within. Either your character becomes a Jedi master or a Sith. The Watcher's curse is a long term issue, your sense of self being eroded little by little with each vision. Maerwald was still functional for decades.

Now, if we create a stronger story centered around Thaos and your character's past lives, it could be that the plot is driven by harrowing visions instead of detective NPCs. One idea: PoE could have been a non linear narrative where you confront multiple lives at the same time. One and the oldest would be the inquisitor's stooge from Iovara's time. But there would be other incarnations, some which opposed the Leaden Key. Some which supported it even more so than before. Others that became its unwitting victims. Considering the specialty of the circumstances surrounding those lives, your situation deteriorates much more rapidly than Maerwald's.

Each vision of the past gives you clues that closes the gap with Thaos, culminating at an ending where you aren't much better off than the broken old soul of Caed Nua. To survive you must choose which incarnation, which role you intend to play. That you could be caught anywhere between Aeder's eothasian principles of forgiveness (simply killing the guy) or do more, something more akin to Durance's views and punish his soul beyond recovery. You could even usurp his role as Woedica's chosen and so forth.

In the end it would be about how you interprete things. It could be that the Watcher's story was about the long arc of history, where your soul slowly 'learns' to oppose the Leaden Key and mourns their damning of Iovara. It could also be that you agree with the Leaden Key, you just disagree with Thaos personally for all that he put you through. Or, you know, nothing really matters its all about power.

The possibilities are there, we just need to become more focused in create the plot.

 

[Infinitron]

What is your assessment of the prospects of a crowdfunding campaign for a historic RPG (à la Darklands) in direct comparison to a high-fantasy RPG (à la Pillars of Eternity)?

I have no idea. I believe that many players want historical games, but I do not know exactly how many.

I think that there is a difference between "a" high-fantasy role-playing game and a "successor" as Pillars of Eternity. The time now is 2017. How many players remember Darklands? I think not so many.

But it's not so terrible. I am pleased that so many players Battle Brothers like. Battle Brothers is not a "historical" RPG, but it is low-Fantasy / more realistic. I hope that the same people who like the game, also wanted a historic role play.

 

[Jimmious]

OK he's making me more and more interested. If he's really aiming to make a Darklands-y Turn-Based RPG that has similarities to BB... I will start throwing my monies to him