Company News Ken Levine shuts down Irrational Games

[sea]

Any chance that the Irrational staff are being kept on and that 2K will keep making BioShock under a different dev studio?

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey, can you PM me? I can't find the posts you're referring to.

 

[Metro]

Any chance that the Irrational staff are being kept on and that 2K will keep making BioShock under a different dev studio?

It does surprise me they'd abandon the franchise entirely even if Infinite lost money. It's still a recognizable brand and idiots will flock to buy an inferior product (see, e.g. Arkham Origins) made by cut rate employees with lower salary demands.

 

[tuluse]

Non-compete clauses are tricky as hell, if you want to actually enforce them (because they brush up against the edge of anti-competition laws, for obvious reasons). They work, sure, but they get very readily struck down unless you can show that you've paid market value for that non-competition clause. ESPECIALLY when there's no geographical limit - it's hard as hell to make a non-compete clause stand up post-sale if it covers an entire nation, let alone having it work internationally.

It's why it's standard to bring the previous owner onto the payroll of the company that's buying it. That's the only 'easy' way of making it work - because you can say that you're actively, currently, paying the guy (in part) not to compete with you. Folding it into the sale contract is theoretically possible (and doable enough if you're just saying the guy can't open a shop with 5km of you), but it's generally deemed a bad risk. Much safer to just hire the damn guy for a couple of years - the clause won't be enforceable beyond than anyway, unless you're paying him way above market value.

The biodocs would have certainly signed non-competes has part of the sale to EA, but they're likely limited to the period in which they on EA's payroll - maybe a couple of years beyond at most (assuming EA likes its contracts to do what they say on the box - which is a pretty dubious assumption, admittedly).

What anti-competition laws are you talking about? In US there are pretty much only anti-trust laws, which only apply to monopolies.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Anyway, this can only be a good thing. For the last few years the market has been glutted with AAA budget games with DEEP STORYLINES and VISCERAL COMBAT and REACTIVE ENVIRONMENTS! What the industry has failed to understand is that the average age of a gamer (at least in the US) is lower-to-mid 30s, which dictates a different taste in games. As someone who falls in that age range, I can say wholeheartedly that I am tired of all this same old shit.

the only thing that will change is that the next bioshock milking will be made by rockstar, 2k marin or 2k australia.

 

[Infinitron]

2k marin

It's dead, Jim: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-10-18-2k-marin-shut-down-entirely-reports

 

[SuicideBunny]

2k marin

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-10-18-2k-marin-shut-down-entirely-reports

so make that the sanfran bay area studio where some of the marin peeps went.

 

[Decado]

Anyway, this can only be a good thing. For the last few years the market has been glutted with AAA budget games with DEEP STORYLINES and VISCERAL COMBAT and REACTIVE ENVIRONMENTS! What the industry has failed to understand is that the average age of a gamer (at least in the US) is lower-to-mid 30s, which dictates a different taste in games. As someone who falls in that age range, I can say wholeheartedly that I am tired of all this same old shit.

the only thing that will change is that the next bioshock milking will be made by rockstar, 2k marin or 2k australia.

I'm resigned to the fact that there will always be AAA studios. It doesn't even necessarily disappoint me -- I like the occasional blockbuster game, if for no other reason than I enjoy the spectacle. And games like Skyrim are fun enough in their own right.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

...the fuck?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-compete_clause

Biodocs probably have it too.

Non-compete clauses are tricky as hell, if you want to actually enforce them (because they brush up against the edge of anti-competition laws, for obvious reasons). They work, sure, but they get very readily struck down unless you can show that you've paid market value for that non-competition clause. ESPECIALLY when there's no geographical limit - it's hard as hell to make a non-compete clause stand up post-sale if it covers an entire nation, let alone having it work internationally.

Good point. Although I think courts tend to look more favorably on non-competes signed in the sale of a business (such as selling Irrational) than on non-competes signed as a condition of employment. Plus for the AAA game industry, a reasonable territory would be fairly large even if worldwide is going too far. However, IIRC in California non-competes are prohibited as a matter of public policy - the prohibition is strong enough that some courts in other states won't enforce non-competes with governing law jurisdictions outside of California. But that may be limited only to employment non-competes, leaving sale of business non-competes valid.

Also, as a general point the article mentioned that the employees were getting financial support as well. Which is better than many other people laid off get. Is that standard in the games industry?

 

[Azrael the cat]

Non-compete clauses are tricky as hell, if you want to actually enforce them (because they brush up against the edge of anti-competition laws, for obvious reasons). They work, sure, but they get very readily struck down unless you can show that you've paid market value for that non-competition clause. ESPECIALLY when there's no geographical limit - it's hard as hell to make a non-compete clause stand up post-sale if it covers an entire nation, let alone having it work internationally.

It's why it's standard to bring the previous owner onto the payroll of the company that's buying it. That's the only 'easy' way of making it work - because you can say that you're actively, currently, paying the guy (in part) not to compete with you. Folding it into the sale contract is theoretically possible (and doable enough if you're just saying the guy can't open a shop with 5km of you), but it's generally deemed a bad risk. Much safer to just hire the damn guy for a couple of years - the clause won't be enforceable beyond than anyway, unless you're paying him way above market value.

The biodocs would have certainly signed non-competes has part of the sale to EA, but they're likely limited to the period in which they on EA's payroll - maybe a couple of years beyond at most (assuming EA likes its contracts to do what they say on the box - which is a pretty dubious assumption, admittedly).

What anti-competition laws are you talking about? In US there are pretty much only anti-trust laws, which only apply to monopolies.

The pre-existing common law (the US has largely the same case law - you guys actively strengthened the pre-existing law in that area compared to UK/Australia, rather than setting it aside). The early cases on striking out non-compete clauses were worried that if taken far enough, they start to become a semi-ownership of another's person's ability to make a living, together with the concern that they're often used as an attempt to gain a temporary monopoly over a certain way of doing business (there's no value in a non-compete clause if there's other parties similarly capable of competing against you in the same manner as the guy signing the clause).

It's why they're treated as matters of degree. If they're territorially restricted (you sell your cafe - the previous owner can't just set up shop round the corner) that's one easy way of solving both problems. Same with restricting by time, and by the scope of the protected activities. But it's a balancing act - the longer you want them to run, the narrower the market you can restrict him from (territorially and product-wise); want him to stay out of that particular product market completely and you've got tighter limits on how long the clause will work for.

But then with a 'sophisticated client', like the Bio-docs, loaded with money and with access to all the legal advice that they could need, courts will give a LOT more scope for enforcing non-competes than if Joe the cafe owner signs one when he sells to Starbucks, so long as you've paid market value for it. Of course, with a sophisticated client, there's a very hefty presumption that market value is going to be whatever the hell they paid, and that's a big barrier to someone like the Biodocs getting it struck out, if EA could argue that there's other competitors with sufficient share of that kind of game.

So in a court case, EA would probably win even if they made a fairly long-term and wide-scope deal. But these contracts (or any good contract, really) isn't about whether you can win in court - you want to close off any situation where there can even BE a legal dispute, because those things cost money. It's not like the Biodocs are completely devoid of legal arguments they could take into court, and there's been strange court decisions in this area before. One well-reported set of cases that scare the hell out of lawyers are when that bunch of long-term recording contracts given to new artists were struck down in the 90s. The main media-reported aspect of that was the unfairness of the contracts (large record company locks in young artist, can't record with someone else without being barred from their old songs, ya de da - nevermind that the companies had paid a very good amount of money to the singers, and that those singers were nobodies and worth virtually nothing to the company when they signed the contracts) but they were, in effect, non-compete clauses - over-turned in an area where there's an absolute surplus of competition, because each contract was unfairly restricting a SINGLE pop singer from competing in that area. Now those are very different cases to the kind of merger/acquisition scenario that we're talking about - but the whole point of the contract process is to ensure that there's zero chance of getting blindsided by that kind of thing.

It's about minimising risk, and with that kind of money on the table, making the contract with even a 5% chance of it exploding in their face is completely and utterly unacceptable. Business execs would initiially go 'we take those risks all the time', but their legal department and the law firm advising them on the acquisition would throw a fit and run through with them what it would end up costing if a fraction of their contracts turned into substantial legal disputes. Especially when they can deal with it by paying a minor fee.

 

[Dexter]

I posted this in the other thread, I still find it the most likely explanation:

It might have failed relatively to what Take Two expected, they've worked on it for like 5 years and the last numbers I've seen was of 3.7 million "shipped": http://www.videogamer.com/xbox360/b..._infinite_has_shipped_3_7_million_copies.html
Compare to latest GTA and what Take Two might have expected: http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/02/03/gta-5-has-shipped-325-million-copies

The press release says:

BioShock has generated retail revenues of over a half billion dollars and secured an iconic place in gaming.

This is across 3 titles, and what, 10 years of development?

Compare again: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2013-09-20-gta-v-exceeds-USD1-billion-in-only-3-days

It's probably just not where Take Two was expecting the franchise to be heading overall, especially since Infinite didn't much improve over the first game: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/118449/TakeTwo_BioShock_Hit_4M_Units_BioShock_2_Drove_Sales.php

There was also all the problems and layoffs/departures during development:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...ck_Infinite_team_members_leave_Irrational.php
http://ugrgaming.com/2012/10/17/layoffs-hit-the-bioshock-infinite-team/

Irrational games, the developer behind Bioshock Infinite have lost some staff members. Combat designer Clint Bundrick and AI lead Don Norbury have both left developer Irrational Games for Microsoft Games. This isn’t the first time this happened at Irrational, as the team undergone a number of key departures over the last few months, including art director Nate Wells.

http://beefjack.com/news/irrational...e-wells-columbian-shantytown-one-such-victim/

One such victim of relentless changing and cutting was Finkton, a shantytown in the skyward city of Columbia that would’ve looked like the slums of Jamaica or Key West. Art director Wells had laboured on its visual design for months and Levine had never thrown up any criticism, but one day he decided it had to go. Its rundown and dilapidated nature didn’t fit the Columbian aesthetic, which put beauty over everything else. The phrasing in the article is ambiguous so it’s unclear whether Finkton in its entirety was cut or whether it merely underwent a drastic redesign.

 

[The Bishop]

I got to admit, that statement from Levine produced more entertainment for me than the entirety of Bioshock series.

 

[Irenaeus]

I actually liked the first three stages of Bioshock.

 

[Siel]

I actually liked the first three stages of Bioshock.

I liked the first stage because you don't have any gun and don't know yet how shit the is gunplay.

 

[evdk]

Any chance that the Irrational staff are being kept on and that 2K will keep making BioShock under a different dev studio?

It does surprise me they'd abandon the franchise entirely even if Infinite lost money. It's still a recognizable brand and idiots will flock to buy an inferior product (see, e.g. Arkham Origins) made by cut rate employees with lower salary demands.

They are going to make a Gone Home in the BS:I world, only with race mixing. Instant GOTY all years.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

I actually liked the first three stages of Bioshock.

Yes, a very good game for the first 20 minutes, it's just a bit of a shame about the remaining 20 hours.

 

[DeepOcean]

I really felt sad when Herve raped Interplay, when Looking Glass ended, when Troika closed doors, their games had problems and not everyone loved each one of them but it was obvious that they wanted to live through gamming as everybody else but they had passion. I respected those companies and they deserved my respect. They deserve a tomb on the Hall of the good companies butchered by finance/marketing people with too much money and not enough brains.

Irrational became a faceless shlock factory for 2K where keeping a cushy job became top priority, they were more than okay to make shlock for 2k. 2K called the shoots but they were more than confortable to be mercenaries for them, that is okay but don't win my admiration or sympathy for them. Honestly, I don't feel pity for them as I really don't feel pity if that happened to any other schlock factory like Blizzard, Infinity ward and etc.

 

[DemonKing]

Can't say I'll miss them - BS:I was essentially a reskinned BS so there wasn't much evidence that they were capable of evolving much or producing innovation. Also I'll be quite happy to never play another game where the story is told by tape recorders left lying around - apparently in BS games it is your patriotic duty to keep an audio-diary at all times.

Farewell Ken, the man who managed to create an entire game set in a leaking, underwater city where you were never once in danger of drowning let alone having to swim.

 

[Mastermind]

I enjoyed both Bioshock 1 and 2. Finished 2 twice, and am in the middle of a second bioshock 1 playthrough. Will also finish 2's dlc after that. I dunno if I wanna touch Infinite. The political themes in 1 were decent. It got pretty retarded in 2 and it looks like Infinite is the dumbest one yet. It's like Levine can empathize with cold blooded libertarians enough to make a credible one in the first game but when it comes to collectivists, conservatives and butthurt proles his reptilian brain is too alien to actually comprehend them.

 

[DeepOcean]

It's like Levine can empathize with cold blooded libertarians enough to make a credible one in the first game but when it comes to collectivists, conservatives and butthurt proles his reptilian brain is too alien to actually comprehend them.

Nah, his portray of objectivism was as shallow and retarded as his portray of religion and racism in Bio Infinite. He is just a hipster, man. Lavine uses wikipedia as the inspiration for his stories. What are you thinking? A game developer studying something? That is preposterous.

 

[Mastermind]

It's like Levine can empathize with cold blooded libertarians enough to make a credible one in the first game but when it comes to collectivists, conservatives and butthurt proles his reptilian brain is too alien to actually comprehend them.

Nah, his portray of objectivism was as shallow and retarded as his portray of religion and racism in Bio Infinite. He is just a hipster, man. Lavine uses wikipedia as the inspiration for his stories. What are you thinking? A game developer studying something? That is preposterous.

I don't remember objectivism beint portrayed so much as a quasi-objectivist being portrayed. Andrew Ryan actually comes off as a real person with understandable human motivations. Lamb OTOH is a contrived nutjob and judging by the bsi trailers the villains might as well twirl their mustaches.

 

[Jaesun]

If only Looking Glass could reunite and make great games again......

 

[RK47]

pigs fly too. if u throw it hard enough

 

[Dokkalfar]

Why would they? Games like Skyrim and Bioshock Infinite are the logical end conclusion for LGS style games. Once you cut the party out of the RPG, Once you reduce combat to boring real-time clicking at enemies until they die, once you focus on first-person 'immersion', what else is left? Arena, Ultima Underworld, System Shock were the true beginning of the decline.

 

[DeepOcean]

If only Looking Glass could reunite and make great games again......

I would dream but, at this point, after having a few brain cells burned by the gaming industry they could end like those 80s bands reunions. I would be happier with a new Looking Glass. I'm really worried, if you look to the average age of codex loved designers, most of them are middle age men by now. Where is the new talent?