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Interview Ken Rolston (Oblivion's lead designer) retirement interview

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Sorry, didn't have time to continue this discussion yesterday.

Keldryn said:
Different approaches to design.
Is different a new slang for idiotic? Ken is a poor, hardly competent designer. Take MW's broken trade system. Instead of designing it properly, he comes up with an idiotic system that doesn't really work. Instead of fixing it properly, he comes up with that crab trader loaded with money. Yep, that was Ken's idea, and it's a fine illustration of his design skills. Btw, do you know that he was the lead designer of Battlespire?

And wasn't Rolston being slammed elsewhere in this thread for not using his role as Lead Designer to use his authority to make design decisions when they need to be made?
My point exactly. I blamed him for accepting that "what kids want" crap. Some people argued that he didn't have any powers and that lead designers are only one step higher than janitors. This quote proves them wrong.

I think it is dramatically over-generalizing to equate his "dull mechanics and rules" for whether NPCs are telling the truth and whether or not they can betray the player to his opinion that modern games have become dull and formulaic.
Let's go over it again. On one hand, Ken is known for having very specific and, well, dull rules that result in dull gameplay. What Douglas listed are only few examples. Ken also believes that rogues should be more of a combat (vs stealth) oriented class, etc. Anyway, on the other hand, Ken complains about dull and formulaic games. Does anyone else see a hypocrisy there?

Or maybe he's just behaving like a professional and not bad-mouthing the company and people that he worked with for years. I could be wrong, of course.
You don't need to bad-mouth a company to show (betray) some emotions if the subject brings up some memories.

I'm well aware of this. That doesn't mean that the people who hired Ken and who picked up the bill don't have their own ideas of what a game needs to compete in today's marketplace.
Let's not forget MW's commercial success here.

And I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting the game to have full voiceovers.
Even Ken disagrees with you.

When you have a game world represented in meticulous graphical detail, with a fairly interactive environment, it is somewhat jarring to have text bubbles floating around above characters' heads.
What are you talking about? Have you run out of arguments and started making shit up? Do I need to remind you what TES dialogue system looks like?

That's entirely different than making personal attacks on the character of one of those people because you happen to disagree with his perspectives on design. That's neither mature or professional.
I think that many of his design ideas and quests, as shown in MW/OB are beyond stupid. Apparently, expressing an honest (but blunt) opinion is neither mature nor professional in your book of fucked up concepts, but that doesn't come as a surprise.

He comes across as quite professional and polite in his interviews, and he came across much the same way the one time that I met him (I had a press pass at E3 2001 and got in on a private demo of Morrowind).
Most people come across as quite professional and polite in interviews, which is why we prefer to judge people by what they do vs what they say.

Btw:

Oblivion is still very much aimed at the "hardcore" gamer, regardless of what a vocal minority of RPG traditionalists have to say about the game. It has a massive world with a lot of information to keep track of, and can literally take hundreds of hours to complete. That isn't "casual" and it isn't "mainstream." It's not "dumbed down for ADD kiddies." It certainly is polished and shiny to make it compete in the marketplace with other modern games with high production values, but that is an entirely different issue altogether. It's still squarely aimed at the 18-34 year-old male (with a lot fo disposable income) demographic, just like the vast majority of computer and console games released today are.
What a load of crap. If you want me to pick it apart, line by line, I gladly will.
 

Old Scratch

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Messages
190
ad hominem said:
Okay, I agree with the first part, sometimes it's nice when the medium is capable of delivering; but in your second paragraph it sounds like you assume that it's not possible to write varied and realistic personalities. Morrowind's problem wasn't that the dialogue was written, it was that it was written poorly. It can be much cheaper to write good dialogue than it is to write reasonably sufficient dialogue and pay (hopefully) talented voice actors to give it personality in a recording studio. Regardless of how good your VA's talent is, if they're reading shitty scripts it will still sound stupid. Patrick Stewart is one of the better Shakespearean actors of our time, but he still sounds stupid in that game because he has nothing to work with.

Usually the fundamental basis for any interesting character is writing and on it's own that can usually shine through. Hell, it's what I read books for. Voice over and other features that enhance the personality of a character are good additions from my experience though - especially given the medium we're discussing. Maybe I should have been clearer, but I'm not claiming just text by itself for dialogue is bad or anything, but it can be even better with the things I mentioned.

As for Morrowind and Oblivion:

Weak writing = boring dialogue(Morrowind)
Weak writing + mediocre voice acting = boring dialogue with a hint of personality from the actor(Oblivion)

I'd take the second option over the first.

Hiring fairly high-profile film and television actors like Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean(Boromir) to do VO in a game was stupid and probably was a big waste of resources, considering there's a large pool of talented actors who specialize in voice acting. Stephen Russell from the Thief series is a good example. He not only provided Garretts voice, but many of the other characters too and it would be hard to even distinguish that it was the same guy. For one Patrick Stewart reading a few lines, they probably could have had five Stephen Russell's reading most of the lines in the game.

Some of you folks seem too quick to make voice over a scapegoat for all kinds of shoddy elements of a CRPG. Knowing it was going to be voice-acted doesn't magically make the writing in Oblivion leave something to be desired. It's not as if the budget was robbed by VO and they suddenly had to abandon trying to write interesting characters as if creating them costs a fortune. Not having voice over in Oblivion would most likely have had very little impact on improving the writing or any of the other CRPG elements the average poster at this forum would give a shit about. Don't let features like that serve as an excuse for weak game design.
 

Drakron

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You missing the point.

Because of costs and space voice acting means LESS dialogue and as full voice acting can work in linear games that have few main NPCs and there is little dialogue options (such as FF X) its impossible for a "sandbox" game since getting 100+ diferent people to record something as 100 hours of dialogue costs too much and takes too much space.
 

Old Scratch

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Messages
190
Drakron said:
You missing the point.

Because of costs and space voice acting means LESS dialogue and as full voice acting can work in linear games that have few main NPCs and there is little dialogue options (such as FF X) its impossible for a "sandbox" game since getting 100+ diferent people to record something as 100 hours of dialogue costs too much and takes too much space.

No it doesn't. It only means less dialogue if they didn't want to have that much dialogue to begin with. Bloodlines, KOTOR, and the Gothics had plenty of dialogue - more than most games which get labeled as RPGs.

What you're arguing has more to do with choosing quanity over quality, not voice acting. Maybe Morrowind and Oblivion just had too many NPCs and not enough focus on making each one have enough personality to stand out. It has nothing to do with VO - stop making excuses for them.
 

ad hominem

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Old Scratch said:
No it doesn't. It only means less dialogue if they didn't want to have that much dialogue to begin with.
So are you assuming that every game has an unlimited budget, unlimited time to be made, and has no other basic economic constraints? Hiring people like Stewart and (post-LotR) Bean is really, really expensive...I agree with you that they could use actual "voice actors" but spending any amount of money/time on hiring talent and recording voices is in fact taking away resources that could be used to better gameplay in some other way, either through better/more dialogue options, fixing the broken battle system, etc. That Bethesda would have most likely used those resources to add even more shitty bloom effects is beside the point.
 

suibhne

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Old Scratch said:
No it doesn't. It only means less dialogue if they didn't want to have that much dialogue to begin with.

It's possible to argue that full VO didn't reduce the amount/quality of dialogue in Oblivion (or any other particular case), if the amount/quality of dialogue was an independent design decision. And yes, in Oblivion, the chances of any specific element sucking by design are actually quite high. But you can't reasonably argue that full VO presents no constraint on the amount or quality (type, nature, w/e) of dialogue possible in a game.
 

obediah

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Messages
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Old Scratch said:
No it doesn't.

Yes it does. Well it doesn't mean that every game with full voice acting has less dialogue than it would otherwise. But it does significantly increase the cost of dialogue and the storage space required for it. Good voice acting is even more expensive, as it involves more than the actor just reading lines off a page one morning. Voiced dialogue is also many orders of magnitude more difficult to edit after it's recorded.

When you put all of this together, full voice acting is a strong err uhm force (in the pattern language sense) pushing for reduced and simplified dialogue.

It only means less dialogue if they didn't want to have that much dialogue to begin with.

I hope most designers don't write a bunch of dialogue they don't want, just so they can later cut it out because of cost/space overruns associated with voicing it.

Bloodlines, KOTOR, and the Gothics had plenty of dialogue - more than most games which get labeled as RPGs.

Dialogue isn't money or white blood cells. You don't just scribble to 1000 words and call it a day. Are all of these games fully voiced or something?

What you're arguing has more to do with choosing quanity over quality, not voice acting. Maybe Morrowind and Oblivion just had too many NPCs and not enough focus on making each one have enough personality to stand out.

The voice overs in oblivion negated any chance at giving minor characters a personality. When 300 people have the same voice it makes it hard to differentiate them. When they say the same things, it get's even harder. When what they say is all crappily chopped together, it gets even worse. Speaking of which , why have the crappy edits? To save money and space of course, our two old friends.

It has nothing to do with VO - stop making excuses for them.

Why are the most baseless assertions always the strongest? Also the accusation that Drakon is making excuses for Bethesda is a real riot.
 

Hazelnut

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Old Scratch said:
Some of you folks seem too quick to make voice over a scapegoat for all kinds of shoddy elements of a CRPG. Knowing it was going to be voice-acted doesn't magically make the writing in Oblivion leave something to be desired. It's not as if the budget was robbed by VO and they suddenly had to abandon trying to write interesting characters as if creating them costs a fortune. Not having voice over in Oblivion would most likely have had very little impact on improving the writing or any of the other CRPG elements the average poster at this forum would give a shit about. Don't let features like that serve as an excuse for weak game design.

I'm not sure if you're referring to me or not with this comment, but i certainly do hold the opinion that doing full voice for Oblivion was a disaster for the complexity of the game and have said so a couple of times in this thread. I have no proof, as I didn't work on the game, so it's all conjecture obviously. It's the only way I can tie up what MSFD said without deciding he was a liar rather than reporting some of their good intentions within the team that met with some immovable constraint. I think the constraint was the full VO personally, but it's only a theory.

The reason that the full VO was such a constraint is simply the size and scope of the game. If you took all the quests and put in more success paths and consequences and NPC reactions, what would have happened to the VO required - it would have doubled and more probably. There the time and cost implications, then the disk space required - 2 DVD's anyone? Now, factor in the management and scheduling complexities and you really start to see that the only rational way of managing to get the game done without doing a Duke Nukem Forever is to limit the dialogue to just what is necessary for the largest number of players. Hence you get the - single path, jump though hoops, holding your hand so that you know what the correct thing to do next is - type of gameplay. I liked MW, and can live with a lot of the things that are deal breakers to others here, but this type of gameplay is what ruined it for me, which is why I feel so strongly about the full VO decision.

I'm not planning to go step by step though all of the thoughts that led me to this opinion - I have neither the time or inclination. (I want to get an hour or so in on Lazarus tonight) I also don't think that Oblivion should have had no voice either, or that the poor quality of the shipped full VO has anything to do with this argument, although it's really flippin' awful. What I think they should have done is used a pragmatic approach and done partial VO. Anyway, I really don't think I'm scapegoating the VO and I hope you can agree with me on that at least, regardless of whether you disagree with my conjectures.

Cheers,

H.
 

Old Scratch

Liturgist
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Well damn, triple teamed. Okay, I'll fall in line with popular opinion: Full voice over is totally a pointless waste of resources! Motherfuck Patrick Stewart!
 

sheek

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TES demographics

TES games are mainly designed for wealthy, older, slightly retarded, LARPer-type RPG fans. That's the core support, there are lots of ADD-kiddies as well attracted by shiny graphics but they're not the fan-base. Contrary to what some Codexers say these guys are 'hardcore', just hardcore about stupid things.
 

LlamaGod

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Yes
Re: TES demographics

sheek said:
TES games are mainly designed for wealthy, older, slightly retarded, LARPer-type RPG fans. That's the core support, there are lots of ADD-kiddies as well attracted by shiny graphics but they're not the fan-base. Contrary to what some Codexers say these guys are 'hardcore', just hardcore about stupid things.

they are hardcore about a game

we are hardcore about game design
 

Xi

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I'm just pissed that they spent so much time on the bling. Had they just capitalized on the gameplay of Daggerfall and used simpler graphics/technology, the game would have been far superior. Games like WoW proove that a game doesn't need photorealistic graphics to be a huge success. The WoW Vs EQ2 battles are hillarious. Those EQ2 graphic whores were sorely disapointed by the lack of game they got. Fucking tards. People play video games for the gameplay, not for the graphics. Graphics only promote impulse buying but they don't stop people from tearing your worthless product a new asshole when it sucks.

Ken Rolsten was a great guy. Maybe not the best designer for this series but ultimately a worthy game developer who devoted his entire life to the cause(most of it). He's done more then just develop vidoe games too. In fact, his portfolio is loaded with lots of Roleplaying development.

My hats off to a person like this. These people are a rare find. It's amazing that his love lasted so long. Pretty spectacular really.

Also, how can you people base judgement off of simple one liners. Maybe the writer didn't agree, but maybe none of us would have agreed with the writer. He didn't cite many examples and obviously was left clueless(Over his head).
 

DarkUnderlord

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Re: Ken Rolston (Oblivion's lead designer) retirement interv

Prime Junta said:
Vault Dweller said:
Besides, what does "I'm told" mean? Told by fucking whom? Is it a fucking fact? As you stated, that was one of the worst decisions, yet he made it, because someone told him something. Cute.

That depends on your definition of "worst." The game is a roaring success commercially. If the design goal was to create a bestseller, the project was incredibly successful. Did it occur to you that perhaps Bethsoft was in it for the money, not the art? And that, just perhaps, the lead designer had a family to support, and could not just walk off the job because his precious creative vision got compromised?
Good thing Hitler didn't have a family then, huh?

SUCK THAT. I JUST INVOKED GODWIN'S LAW.

Seriously, why is it okay for Ken to fuck over his values just because he may and or may not have a family / children / dog to support? Normally the "I'm leaving" interviews are the perfect opportunity to bring out that sort of crap and blame someone else for the flaws. In actual fact, if you read between the lines, it's partly what Ken does. His answer to that question is not "I enjoyed making Oblivion" but much more "meh" to the big team he's just been working with. What's interesting is that he doesn't take it any further than that.

Then again, Ken does seem quite proud of every decision he's made regarding Oblivion, going so far as to heap praise on the conversations system because it contributes to the charm of the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is the conversation system with the same 6 voices which have the same conversations over and over again until you die from the pain of it all.

Ken Rolston said:
I think the narrative urgency of Oblivion's main quest is more dramatic for users new to the Elder Scrolls, and, at the same time, that narrative urgency in no way prevents the user from indulging the signature Elder Scrolls freeform style of gameplay. I only wish we'd presented Morrowind's main narrative with the same obtrusive urgency.
Huh? Morrowind has the EXACT same "obtrusive urgency" as Oblivion. That is, it's in your face but there's no real urgency what-so-ever. As far as I recall, there were quite a few people worried about The Bad Guyâ„¢ (whatever his name was) building his God in his underground bunker when in the end, it didn't matter how long you took to get to it. For starters though, that's not so much "obtrusive" as it is "lame". Everyone being afraid of The Bad Guyâ„¢ when he doesn't actually need to be dealt with is just dumb. It takes more away from the game than it adds when you start to see through the "urgency" of it all. Fallout suffers from this too with the original idea of every town being invaded by Mutants being shelved. The invasion of Necropolis is all that remains of that though the water chip quest by comparison does have a specific time limit.

Ken Rolston said:
The overwhelming number of quest choices and the lack of narrative focus was justly identified by many as a serious weakness in Morrowind.
Yes, I can definitely recall the "overwhelming" number of quest "choices" being so problematic in Morrowind.

NOT.

No really, what choice was there?

Ken Rolston said:
Morrowind stops being much of a gameplay challenge long before you've exhausted the narrative and setting content. Encounters indexed to the user level addresses that problem directly. I think leveling was, at first, perceived as a cure for the obvious balance flaws of Morrowind. But as we refined leveling gameplay during development, we appreciated how it made the game more fun in every way. It does feel a little artificial, and, to some extent, it robs the player of the joy of getting the crap kicked out him. But I think minor refinements in leveling practice for the next Elder Scrolls projects can reduce those blemishes to a large extent.
The problem here is that they fucked it up so badly in Morrowind, they had no choice but to fuck it up the exact opposite way in Oblivion. Morrowind didn't have any tough monsters in it at all. So bad was it in fact that once you hit level 13, you could just about 1-hit-kill every damn monster in the game. There were no "Big Dragons" or other super tough enemies to challenge you once you could take on those stupid Gold People that liked hanging about empty ruins.

Drakron said:
Bethsoft is the developer and publisher, I hate when people go around excusing Bethsoft with it "being a small developer" when they are both a developer and publisher.

Bethsoft would not cut its own funding, Ken Rolston was lead developer and ultimate responsible for several aspects of the game.
Actually, while Bethesda developed and published Morrowind, Oblivion was published by Take Two. I don't know what finance was involved in that deal, if any.

Keldryn said:
I highly doubt that the target audience of Oblivion is the 14-18 year-old demographic. Especially when you consider that you either need a $400 game console or a high-end PC with a $400+ video card to really be able to play it.
Yeah, it's not like 14 year olds have $400 consoles. Oh wait! Parents, grand-parents and birthday presents.

Keldryn said:
Oblivion is still very much aimed at the "hardcore" gamer, regardless of what a vocal minority of RPG traditionalists have to say about the game. It has a massive world with a lot of information to keep track of, and can literally take hundreds of hours to complete. That isn't "casual" and it isn't "mainstream." It's not "dumbed down for ADD kiddies." It certainly is polished and shiny to make it compete in the marketplace with other modern games with high production values, but that is an entirely different issue altogether.
You've been drinking and posting again haven't you?

Remember Kids: Don't drink and post.

Keldryn said:
It's still squarely aimed at the 18-34 year-old male (with a lot fo disposable income) demographic, just like the vast majority of computer and console games released today are.
Which is why Oblivion was first released with a TEEN rating and why companies deliberately aim for a teen rating I suppose (I cite Atari's insistence that ToEE be re-jiggied for a teen rating)?

AMIRITE?
 

Section8

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Section8 said:
Ken also helped with the Bethesda titles Sea Dogs and Pirates of the Caribbean.
<coughs>

You feeling unwell S8, or is there something I missed...

Akella Website said:
This year is marked with the release of Sea Dogs, a pirate sim that quickly gains a world reknown. Sea Dogs is a meta-game combining sails simulation with role-playing and action elements. The game is built on a genuine sea engine "Storm" developed by Akella, and possesses stunning graphics and realistic physics. Sea Dogs is published by 1C company in Russia and by Bethesda Softworks abroad.

Fuck that. I can't stand it when developer credit gets passed on to publishers, and this is a particularly nasty case. Actually, Bethesda in particular are a nasty case. From limited reference, they like to plaster their own logo and complete omit the original developer's logo from games they publish.

Now, I'm sure Kenneth did help them out in some way, but crediting Sea Dogs and POTC as "Bethesda titles" is horseshit. I wonder if Akella tried to claim Morrowind as their own when they did the Russian localisation?

Oh and I'm fully aware that it may be a journalistic error, which just shows up the gaming media as the silly cunts they are.

On the topic of full VO, etc:

Completely disregarding budgetary constraints, and the limitations of fully recorded dialogue, I think full voiceover in Oblivion was seriously detrimental to the game. There's no more blatant way to illustrate the sheer fucking idiocy of NPCs being nothing more than metagame hint dispensers, than by having them speak it aloud.

"What's the news from the other provinces?"
"I hear <player opportunity> <can be triggered> <by player action>."
"What?"
"Farewell."
 

Saint_Proverbius

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Yeah, man! Paranoia kicks heaps of ass. I don't think any of you people can judge Ken completely until you've played or at least read the rulebook for Paranoia. Sure, Morrowind sucked balls.. But Paranoia is probably one of the most interesting and humorous P&P RPGs ever written.

Any P&P RPG that has items like the nuclear grenade, which has a blast radius of 100m and a throwing radius of 50m rules.
 

Hazelnut

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Old Scratch said:
Well damn, triple teamed. Okay, I'll fall in line with popular opinion: Full voice over is totally a pointless waste of resources! Motherfuck Patrick Stewart!

Oh, come on, you didn't even address the question I had in the first sentance of my reply. I really wanted to know if you were referring to me when you said "Some of you folks seem too quick to make voice over a scapegoat for all kinds of shoddy elements of a CRPG" and I spent some time posting my position to see what you thought about it. Not so I could get some cop out single liner like the one above. :roll: Very disapointed!

1) I am not trying to beat you into changing your opinion, so am not part of teamin you in any way.

2) My opinion is NOT "Full voice over is totally a pointless waste of resources!" which is why I wrote my post.

3) I am genuinely interested in your opinion and thoughts, and was trying to draw you out to state in more depth. That's why I spent 20 odd minutes writing rather than playing Lazarus.

4) Ignore the other, more hyperbolic, fuckwits! :wink:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
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Saint_Proverbius said:
Yeah, man! Paranoia kicks heaps of ass. I don't think any of you people can judge Ken completely until you've played or at least read the rulebook for Paranoia. Sure, Morrowind sucked balls..
Well, nobody is saying that he has never done anything good in his life. We are talking about what he's done lately. Spector, Romero, Bradley, etc did some great things in the past, and then did some god-fucking-awful things later. Go figure.

Xi said:
...< ode to Ken Rolston >...

Also, how can you people base judgement off of simple one liners. Maybe the writer didn't agree, but maybe none of us would have agreed with the writer.
Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion.
 

Keldryn

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Vault Dweller said:
Sorry, didn't have time to continue this discussion yesterday.

Me neither. It was my birthday, and I was determined to stay off the dammned computer.

Is different a new slang for idiotic? Ken is a poor, hardly competent designer. Take MW's broken trade system. Instead of designing it properly, he comes up with an idiotic system that doesn't really work. Instead of fixing it properly, he comes up with that crab trader loaded with money. Yep, that was Ken's idea, and it's a fine illustration of his design skills.

It's easy to pick apart anyone's design skills by giving a handful of examples of poor design, but ignoring things that were done right. Which are usually attributed to someone else when there is an axe to grind withone of the designers.

Btw, do you know that he was the lead designer of Battlespire?

Nope, and I haven't played Battlespire either. It didn't look like a game that would appeal to me.

My point exactly. I blamed him for accepting that "what kids want" crap. Some people argued that he didn't have any powers and that lead designers are only one step higher than janitors. This quote proves them wrong.

Eh, I think you're reading far too much into the statements that he makes in the interview. The "what kids want" statement struck me as being kind of tongue-in-cheek. I don't think that anyone argued that he didn't have any powers -- only that lead designers still have to answer to executive producers and project directors.

Let's go over it again. On one hand, Ken is known for having very specific and, well, dull rules that result in dull gameplay. What Douglas listed are only few examples. Ken also believes that rogues should be more of a combat (vs stealth) oriented class, etc. Anyway, on the other hand, Ken complains about dull and formulaic games. Does anyone else see a hypocrisy there?[/quiote]

I still think it's over-generalizing. His belief that rogues should be more of a combat-oriented class vs a stealth oriented class is neither null nor formulaic. It is perhaps not really appropriate for the commonly accepted archetype of a rogue, but that is a different issue. But I can see how the image of a rogue as more of a swashbuckling character could be more appealing. I think it's a difference between a nimble, lightly-armed and armoured, swashbuckling Rogue vs a more cautious and careful "Cat Burglar" type. The term "Rogue" doesn't really conjure images of a more traditional thief, breaking into houses, picking pockets, and avoiding physical conflicts altogether, in my mind. I see them as two distinct character concepts.

You don't need to bad-mouth a company to show (betray) some emotions if the subject brings up some memories.

True. But I still contend there simply wasn't enough in this interview to make a judgement one way or the other on how "bitter" Ken was about decisions that didn't go his way.


Even Ken disagrees with you.

Yeah, I read that part too. Like I said, I don't agree with everything he says, nor is there any reason I should. I don't have a problem with full voiceovers, and what Ken thinks about that doesn't mean squat to me.

When you have a game world represented in meticulous graphical detail, with a fairly interactive environment, it is somewhat jarring to have text bubbles floating around above characters' heads.
What are you talking about? Have you run out of arguments and started making shit up? Do I need to remind you what TES dialogue system looks like?

Is it possible for you to disagree with someone without referring to the other's arguements as "you're making shit up because you ran out of arguments" and "what a load of crap?" It really does nothing to strengthen your credibility when you start doing that. I certainly hope you're much less rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate in real-life social interactions.

Anyway, what you've quoted me saying there was not specifically about The Elder Scrolls dialogue system, but about voice-overs in general. I know what the TES dialogue system looks like -- and I can't stand it. If you don't at least have voiceovers for the "incidental" bits of dialogue that occur outside of the actual dialogue system, you would end up with little "text bubbles" floating around the screen. Ultima IX is a good example of that. I was immensely disappointed with the story of that game, but I don't like using the dialogue patch because when you turn off the voice-overs, you get lines of text floating around all over the screen anytime a character talks. It's really distracting, and really breaks the immersiveness of the world. In an RPG with highly-detailed 3D graphics in a detailed environment, like Gothic, Ultima IX, Morrowind, Oblivion, etc, floating lines of text are really jarring. And even transitioning from the real-time movement through the world into a text-based dialogue system based on the fantasy literature paradigm, feels unnatural. It's not about Oblivion specifically, but about the way in which modern RPGs are being presented in such a visually realistic and detailed fashion, usually unfolding in real-time, and how the more traditional text-based dialogue systems feel like an unnatural break in the style and flow of the rest of the game.


I think that many of his design ideas and quests, as shown in MW/OB are beyond stupid. Apparently, expressing an honest (but blunt) opinion is neither mature nor professional in your book of fucked up concepts, but that doesn't come as a surprise.

Again with the personal insults. Are you compensating for some deep-seated insecurities such that insulting me instead of just disagreeing with my opinions makes you feel like a real man?

There is a world of difference between expressing an honest and blunt opinion, and calling people stupid, idiotic, or retarded or accusing peole of having a book of fucked up concepts, of making shit up, and of being full of crap. The first can still be polite, considerate, and respectful. The second is just being rude and immature, and really makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.

People come across as quite professional and polite in interviews, which is why we prefer to judge people by what they do vs what they say.

Well, of course. I still haven't seen him do anything that deserves the level of spite that a number of people here seems to have. But I'm not going to keep harping on this point, as it isn't going anywhere.


Oblivion is still very much aimed at the "hardcore" gamer, regardless of what a vocal minority of RPG traditionalists have to say about the game. It has a massive world with a lot of information to keep track of, and can literally take hundreds of hours to complete. That isn't "casual" and it isn't "mainstream." It's not "dumbed down for ADD kiddies." It certainly is polished and shiny to make it compete in the marketplace with other modern games with high production values, but that is an entirely different issue altogether. It's still squarely aimed at the 18-34 year-old male (with a lot fo disposable income) demographic, just like the vast majority of computer and console games released today are.
What a load of crap. If you want me to pick it apart, line by line, I gladly will.

Bring it on.
 

Old Scratch

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 19, 2004
Messages
190
Hazelnut said:
Oh, come on, you didn't even address the question I had in the first sentance of my reply. I really wanted to know if you were referring to me when you said "Some of you folks seem too quick to make voice over a scapegoat for all kinds of shoddy elements of a CRPG" and I spent some time posting my position to see what you thought about it. Not so I could get some cop out single liner like the one above. :roll: Very disapointed!

1) I am not trying to beat you into changing your opinion, so am not part of teamin you in any way.

2) My opinion is NOT "Full voice over is totally a pointless waste of resources!" which is why I wrote my post.

3) I am genuinely interested in your opinion and thoughts, and was trying to draw you out to state in more depth. That's why I spent 20 odd minutes writing rather than playing Lazarus.

4) Ignore the other, more hyperbolic, fuckwits! :wink:

Sorry chief, ordinarily I try to respond to every post directed at me, but three essay size ones would've taken too long to tackle - longer than I think my opinon warranted at least.

In what you quoted, I was making more of a sweeping generalization to all people who think voice over and other similar, character presentation elements magically keep RPGs from being unusually complex, role-playing games. There's a shitload of assuming going on with that kind of assertion, especially in the case of Oblivion.

I'm of the belief that if developers and publishers really wanted to make a deep computer role-playing game, they could do it even with some of the bells and whistles typically found in modern games - provided they got the funding of course. But it's not as if someone approaches a game intending to provide a complex RP experience and unparalleled character development in their RPG, but decides they oughtta scrap all those things so they can have voice over, face gen, and decent graphics. Come on now. The main problem is most of them just weren't interested in doing that in the first place. They either want:

a) A mindless hack & slash
b) An exploration fest
c) To just use RPG stats in an action game and call it an RPG
d) A linear dungeon crawl
e) Some combination of the above

The evidence is against those kinds of assumptions too. Take your average computer hack & slash for example. Very rarely do they feature top-notch graphics like Oblivion or Bloodlines when they were released. Yet they're still far more simpler in terms of design and production. Why? Because the developers/publisher wanted the game to be simple, they don't want to mess with all that boring junk like dialogue and anything else that people with ADD might struggle with. Then you have Bloodlines, which is probably my favorite pseudo-RPG since Planescape: Torment, because of the role-playing freedom it allowed you. Yet it had full voice-over. So, just because a developer has more of their budget and man-power freed up from superficial production elements does not mean they give a shit and will do anything to make the RP aspects of their game any deeper. So why bother griping about it? A shitty, simplistic game was most likely going to be a shitty simplistic game - fancy production values or not.

One could also argue that when developers spend a sizeable chunk of money on those superficial elements, that it hurts the games overall profitability, even if it was a great game. But the truth is, people like shit like that. The average PC gamer -- and console gamer for that matter -- likes to buy games with fancy graphics and high production values. So essentially, those elements may increase revenue; there's a distinct possibility they pay for themselves and then some.

I seriously like full voice over in RPGs. It adds significantly to the things I value in the genre. It greatly enhances the personality of characters you encounter in a game and makes them seem more like real beings rather than pieces of code. Obviously if the writing sucks in a game, voice over won't make it that much better, but I don't think it hurts either...provided the voice acting isn't abysmal too.

The further video games get away from making me feel like I'm just reading a book, the better, as trying to resemble what you get from a book does not play to the medium's strengths or capabilities. Like I said, maybe I fall into the "kids these days" camp in that respect but I don't see my opinion changing on the matter which makes it kind of pointless to argue.
 

Keldryn

Arcane
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
1,053
Location
Vancouver, Canada
Re: Ken Rolston (Oblivion's lead designer) retirement interv

DarkUnderlord said:
Ken Rolston said:
The overwhelming number of quest choices and the lack of narrative focus was justly identified by many as a serious weakness in Morrowind.
Yes, I can definitely recall the "overwhelming" number of quest "choices" being so problematic in Morrowind.

NOT.

No really, what choice was there?

I think he was referring to the overwhelming number of quests that you could choose to undertake, not about the choices you had to make in the process of pursuing a single quest. After spending a couple of hours talking to people in one city, you have literally a couple of dozen quests from which to choose what to do next. I can see how that could be considered an overwhelming number of choices. But I don't think that his use of the word "choices" in that quote is intended to be in the context of the choices one has to make in a game like Fallout.

Yeah, it's not like 14 year olds have $400 consoles. Oh wait! Parents, grand-parents and birthday presents.

I didn't say that 14 year-old kids didn't have $400 consoles. I had an NES when I was 14 that I didn't pay for. But I am saying that the majority of game consoles sold are to young adult males for their own use. Of course parents do buy them for their kids, but that isn't the larget section of the game console market, particularly during the first couple of years of a console's lifespan.

Keldryn said:
Oblivion is still very much aimed at the "hardcore" gamer, regardless of what a vocal minority of RPG traditionalists have to say about the game. It has a massive world with a lot of information to keep track of, and can literally take hundreds of hours to complete. That isn't "casual" and it isn't "mainstream." It's not "dumbed down for ADD kiddies." It certainly is polished and shiny to make it compete in the marketplace with other modern games with high production values, but that is an entirely different issue altogether.
You've been drinking and posting again haven't you?

Remember Kids: Don't drink and post.

I have been utterly moved and convinced by the flawless logic of your rebuttal. How can I refute such solid, rational argumetns?

Keldryn said:
Which is why Oblivion was first released with a TEEN rating and why companies deliberately aim for a teen rating I suppose (I cite Atari's insistence that ToEE be re-jiggied for a teen rating)?

ESRB ratings are not indicative of a game's target audience. In most cases (depending on the subject matter), it is to a game's benefit to have as inclusive a rating as possible. Following your logic, the defining features of a game designed for the target audience that this board represents would be realistic or excessive blood and gore, sexually suggestive content, and harsh language. Since those are what generally make the difference between a Teen rating and a Mature rating.
 

Hazelnut

Erudite
Joined
Dec 17, 2002
Messages
1,490
Location
UK
Old Scratch:

Ta for that. I know what your opinion is now, and I largly agree. I think you missed my point though as it was very specific to Oblivion rather than general. Certainly doesn't apply to the non-dialogue speech, or to a game of more conservative and controlled scope as BL.

Cheers,

H.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,044
Keldryn said:
Me neither. It was my birthday, and I was determined to stay off the dammned computer.
Well, happy birthday then.

It's easy to pick apart anyone's design skills by giving a handful of examples of poor design, but ignoring things that were done right. Which are usually attributed to someone else when there is an axe to grind withone of the designers.
There were things that were done right? Examples please. No, I'm not kidding. Anything that was even remotely decent in the ES series was from Arena/Daggerfall. The new team, led by Ken and Barbie (Todd), did a great job fucking things up and dumbing things down.

Nope, and I haven't played Battlespire either. It didn't look like a game that would appeal to me.
Didn't you like Oblivion?

The "what kids want" statement struck me as being kind of tongue-in-cheek.
Sure. Yet that's what influenced design decisions a lot.

I don't think that anyone argued that he didn't have any powers
Reread the first page.

I still think it's over-generalizing. His belief that rogues should be more of a combat-oriented class vs a stealth oriented class is neither null nor formulaic.
I disagree. It's a stereotypical, dull as fuck character in most RPGs featuring fighters/thieves/mages.

Yeah, I read that part too. Like I said, I don't agree with everything he says, nor is there any reason I should. I don't have a problem with full voiceovers, and what Ken thinks about that doesn't mean squat to me.
He made a good, logical point, and dismissing it is kinda silly.

When you have a game world represented in meticulous graphical detail, with a fairly interactive environment, it is somewhat jarring to have text bubbles floating around above characters' heads.
What are you talking about? Have you run out of arguments and started making shit up? Do I need to remind you what TES dialogue system looks like?

Is it possible for you to disagree with someone without referring to the other's arguements as "you're making shit up because you ran out of arguments" and "what a load of crap?" It really does nothing to strengthen your credibility when you start doing that.
Disagreeing implies that there is a position to disagree. You didn't provide one. You came up with a ridiculous concept to support your arguments. You know that the last 3 games didn't have full voiceover, and that when people argue against it, they don't have the text bubbles in mind. So, why bring it up?

I certainly hope you're much less rude, disrespectful, and inconsiderate in real-life social interactions.
Sorry to disappoint you then.

It's not about Oblivion specifically, but about the way in which modern RPGs are being presented in such a visually realistic and detailed fashion, usually unfolding in real-time, and how the more traditional text-based dialogue systems feel like an unnatural break in the style and flow of the rest of the game.
I agree. I also don't understand why people are still printing books. I mean, now that we have visually realistic and detailed movies, reading a book with, like, words and stuff, feels like an unnatural break in the style and flow of information.

I hope you do realize that "text-based dialogues" are the ONLY way to present a meaningful conversation with choices in games.

Again with the personal insults. Are you compensating for some deep-seated insecurities such that insulting me instead of just disagreeing with my opinions makes you feel like a real man?
And I suppose that when you implied that I'm immature and unprofessional, you made me a compliment?

There is a world of difference between expressing an honest and blunt opinion, and calling people stupid, idiotic, or retarded or accusing peole of having a book of fucked up concepts, of making shit up, and of being full of crap. The first can still be polite, considerate, and respectful. The second is just being rude and immature, and really makes it hard to take anything you say seriously.
Then don't. What do I care? Anyway, you describe the "right" way as polite, considerate, and respectful. Why should some moron who couldn't grasp basic concepts of game design, who was dumb enough not to pay attention to what others have done before him, who couldn't respect the work of others, who ignored every bit of criticism, and chose not to listen; why such a person should be treated politely, with consideration and respect? No, I'm not talking about Ken or even TES games here. I'm talking about FOBOS developer Chuck Cuevas and the guy who did MOO3 and killed the series. These are not the only examples, of course.

I still haven't seen him do anything that deserves the level of spite that a number of people here seems to have.
Once again, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion.
vs Daggerfall.
 

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