Interview Ken Rolston (Oblivion's lead designer) retirement interview

[Saint_Proverbius]

Well, nobody is saying that he has never done anything good in his life. We are talking about what he's done lately. Spector, Romero, Bradley, etc did some great things in the past, and then did some god-fucking-awful things later. Go figure.

I'm not sure what Spector and Bradley did in the past that was so great. Romero worked on Doom, and Doom was creamy, sweet goodness though. Paranoia was brilliant, especially given that it just turns every P&P convention on it's ear and makes a fantastic, down right hilarious table top gaming experience.

Shame Ken didn't get Bethesda to get the rights to ParanoiaXP and made a sandbox, rogue-like-ish CRPG out of it.

 

[7th Circle]

Just out of curiousity, has anyone actually compared the number of words in DF, MW and OB?

In the case of OB, since there are subtitles, there should be a file(s) containing the "dialogue" somewhere (so this still should be doable despite the full use of VO).

I'm just thinking that this could provide some hard numbers as to the effect of VO.

 

[Dogar]

Then don't. What do I care? Anyway, you describe the "right" way as polite, considerate, and respectful. Why should some moron who couldn't grasp basic concepts of game design, who was dumb enough not to pay attention to what others have done before him, who couldn't respect the work of others, who ignored every bit of criticism, and chose not to listen; why such a person should be treated politely, with consideration and respect?

There's no reason to be polite if you don't want to, but you're only doing yourself a favor by toning it down. There's a reasonable degree to which you can criticize something before you become a petulant, whining, overly bitter and obsessive vitriolic gasbag. Jesus H. Christ, the way you constantly rail over and over and over about the unredeemable sins of these devs makes me think that you'd drag them to the Hague to stand trial for crimes against humanity if you had the chance.

 

[Human Shield]

There's no reason to be polite if you don't want to, but you're only doing yourself a favor by toning it down. There's a reasonable degree to which you can criticize something before you become a petulant, whining, overly bitter and obsessive vitriolic gasbag. Jesus H. Christ, the way you constantly rail over and over and over about the unredeemable sins of these devs makes me think that you'd drag them to the Hague to stand trial for crimes against humanity if you had the chance.

If You're Guilty (of bad RPG design), You're Dead.

 

[Lumpy]

Just out of curiousity, has anyone actually compared the number of words in DF, MW and OB?

In the case of OB, since there are subtitles, there should be a file(s) containing the "dialogue" somewhere (so this still should be doable despite the full use of VO).

I'm just thinking that this could provide some hard numbers as to the effect of VO.

No, everything besides the sound, the images and the models are in the .esp files.

 

[doctor_kaz]

Re: level scaling. The guy claims that it deprives you of the pleasure of "getting the crap kicked out of you", but in reality, it did no such thing. Instead, it made it so that what should have been low level, inconsequential creatures like fish could still kick the crap out of you, even if you were powerful enough to kill the game's main villain in a single hit (which is what happened to me). So not only does this not make the game easier, it adds a ridiculous element of discontinuity to the game. Getting killed by a stupid goblin when you're level 35 does more to damage the experience than getting killed by an org in Gothic when you're low level. At least in Gothic, you know that the orcs are strong creatures and you'll be able to beat them down someday.

 

[Keldryn]

Well, happy birthday then.

Thanks. Funny, after you hit 30, you stop looking forward to birthdays...

There were things that were done right? Examples please. No, I'm not kidding. Anything that was even remotely decent in the ES series was from Arena/Daggerfall. The new team, led by Ken and Barbie (Todd), did a great job fucking things up and dumbing things down.

Well, the main thing about Morrowind that I thought was better than Arena/Daggerfall was the reduced scope of the world. I prefer the hand-crafted world of Morrowind to the mostly-generated world in Arena/Daggerfall. Despite that, I still find it somewhat lacking in personality, but less so than the previous titles. But it does feel a bit less empty and soulless.

I like the addition of a 3rd person mode, because I do prefer to see my character on-screen, particularly for melee combat and for climbing/jumping. Unfortunately, it was poorly done, as it's useless for melee combat, and the animation looks absolutely terrible. But it is better than being locked into 1st-person mode all of the time.

Didn't you like Oblivion?

I haven't played it yet. I'll wait until I get an Xbox 360, as my PC won't be able to run it at a decent speed (and I need to limit my mouse-and-keyboard use outside of work anyway).

Sure. Yet that's what influenced design decisions a lot.

I still don't think that the scope and scale of the game is something that is really geared towards "the kids" but I'm going to have to play the game before I can pass judgement on any individual design features.

I disagree. It's a stereotypical, dull as fuck character in most RPGs featuring fighters/thieves/mages.

Is it anymore dull and stereotypical than the fighter or the mage?

He made a good, logical point, and dismissing it is kinda silly.

I'm not dismissing it. I just don't agree with everything that he has to say.

Disagreeing implies that there is a position to disagree. You didn't provide one. You came up with a ridiculous concept to support your arguments. You know that the last 3 games didn't have full voiceover, and that when people argue against it, they don't have the text bubbles in mind. So, why bring it up?

I said that I was referring to voice-overs vs all-text dialogue in general, and I said that I wasn't specifically just referring to the Elder Scrolls games. The discussion on full voice-overs had already expanded to include non-Elder Scrolls games, and I was just building on that.

Sorry to disappoint you then.

And here I thought we were just getting special treatment here. Must be a bit hit with the ladies.

I agree. I also don't understand why people are still printing books. I mean, now that we have visually realistic and detailed movies, reading a book with, like, words and stuff, feels like an unnatural break in the style and flow of information.

That isn't what I was saying, and you know it. Film and literature are two entirely different mediums, and each has their own strengths and weaknesses. I didn't say that electronic games can't reflect the literary side of things. What I said was that as the presentation style continues to evoke that of film, full voice-overs fit that style better than do text dialogues.

On the flip side, games with simpler and more abstract presentations don't lend themselves to voice-overs as readily, and I think that text-based dialogues suit that presentation style. When I'm viewing the world from a 3/4 top-down isometric point of view such that characters are an inch or two high on the screen, it kind of pulls me out of the experience to listen to several paragraphs of spoken dialogue while the character sprite stands motionless on the screen, or while I'm looking at a static portrait of the character. I wouldn't want to play Ultima VII or PS: Torment with full voice-overs; it just wouldn't fit the flow of the game. But when the game world is represented with very detailed, realistic-looking graphics, when all of the action unfolds in real-time, when I control but a single character in the game world, and when my point of view is right up close to the action, I think that fully-animated characters with full voice-overs feel more natural. I'm not saying that full voice-overs are better in every situation.

I hope you do realize that "text-based dialogues" are the ONLY way to present a meaningful conversation with choices in games.

Nope.

And I suppose that when you implied that I'm immature and unprofessional, you made me a compliment?

No, I didn't, and I apologize for that. I shouldn't respond to personal insults with insults of my own. I guess I was just trying to fit in here. :shock:

Once again, Battlespire, Morrowind, Oblivion.
vs Daggerfall.

Well, to each his own. After wasting a good 20-30 hours of my life playing Daggerfall, I may have a little spite reserved for the game designers.

 

[Keldryn]

I'm not sure what Spector and Bradley did in the past that was so great.

Spector did a lot of work with Steve Jackson games and TSR in the 80s. I believe he joined Origin in time to contribute to the design of Ultima VI, and then he went on to lead the development of Worlds of Ultima: The Savage Empire and Martian Dreams, and Ultima VII Part 2. I think he may have been a producer on Ultima Underworld and System Shock, but I'm not certain of that. After he joined Ion Storm, he was the project director of Deus Ex, and then he stepped back and acted as the Studio Director during the production of Invisible War and Thief 3.

D.W. Bradley was the driving force behind Wizardy V, Bane of the Cosmic Forge, and Crusaders of the Dark Savant. I always thought that these games were highly overrated, but they do have a very strong fanbase. Pretty much everything he did afterwards was universally panned though.

Romero worked on Doom, and Doom was creamy, sweet goodness though. Paranoia was brilliant, especially given that it just turns every P&P convention on it's ear and makes a fantastic, down right hilarious table top gaming experience.

Yeah, Paranoia was fun. At least in small doses. I can't imagine actually playing a long-term game though.

I never really "got" Doom. It held my interest long enough to appreciate the technology (as in, oh they finally made it look more like a real 3D game such as Ultima Underworld), and that was it. Shooters have never been able to hold my interest, whether they were the old 2D scrolling shoot 'em ups in the arcade, or modern FPSes.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There's a reasonable degree to which you can criticize something before you become a petulant, whining, overly bitter and obsessive vitriolic gasbag.

Jesus H. Christ, the way you constantly rail over and over and over about the unredeemable sins of these devs makes me think that you'd drag them to the Hague to stand trial for crimes against humanity if you had the chance.

Well, I've seen too many games and series ruined for no good reason, simply because someone was stupid / incompetent / egomaniac / did it for the kids / whatever. XCOM, MOO, M&M, Fallout, Ultima, even Baldur's Gate. I liked those games. It's a shame that something great had to die, because of someone's stupidity and greed. It's a shame that great studios like Origin, Looking Glass, MicroProse, Sirtech, even Troika had to die, because there was no money for their games, but there are plenty of money for some dumb clueless shit and another "epic" game, rated R for retarded.

Maybe you don't care, maybe you enjoy the new games, and prefer "immersion" over gameplay. Good for you. Not every feels that way.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Thanks. Funny, after you hit 30, you stop looking forward to birthdays...

Finally we agree on something.

Well, the main thing about Morrowind that I thought was better than Arena/Daggerfall was the reduced scope of the world. I prefer the hand-crafted world of Morrowind to the mostly-generated world in Arena/Daggerfall. Despite that, I still find it somewhat lacking in personality, but less so than the previous titles. But it does feel a bit less empty and soulless.

I like the addition of a 3rd person mode, because I do prefer to see my character on-screen, particularly for melee combat and for climbing/jumping. Unfortunately, it was poorly done, as it's useless for melee combat, and the animation looks absolutely terrible. But it is better than being locked into 1st-person mode all of the time.

That's all? After "it's easy to pick apart anyone's design skills by giving a handful of examples of poor design, but ignoring things that were done right.", all I get is "well, there was a poorly done smaller world, and then there was a poorly done 3rd person mode"?

Is it anymore dull and stereotypical than the fighter or the mage?

Fighter? Yes. Fighter's job is to, well, fight & kill. But thieves and mages could be done very differently than "fighter who kills differently".

I'm not dismissing it. I just don't agree with everything that he has to say.

Fair enough, but it would be appropriate to address his arguments, instead of dismissing them with "I don't agree"

I said that I was referring to voice-overs vs all-text dialogue in general, and I said that I wasn't specifically just referring to the Elder Scrolls games. The discussion on full voice-overs had already expanded to include non-Elder Scrolls games, and I was just building on that.

There is no reason, even in general, why a game with a dialogue system should do the bubble thing, other than to support your argument, of course.

And here I thought we were just getting special treatment here. Must be a bit hit with the ladies.

No complaints.

I hope you do realize that "text-based dialogues" are the ONLY way to present a meaningful conversation with choices in games.

Nope.

Does your position come with arguments and points?

No, I didn't, and I apologize for that. I shouldn't respond to personal insults with insults of my own. I guess I was just trying to fit in here. :shock:

The thing is, you insulted me because I insulted someone else. I have no problem with that, of course, but that usually sets up the tone of a conversation.

 

[Lumpy]

If Bethesda really wanted to put more dialogue in but were restricted by the voice overs, they wouldn't have recorded every single fucking line of non-quest dialogue 20 times - 10 races * 2 genders. They all have the same lines, spoken in different voices.

 

[Hazelnut]

WTF - have you actually played the game? I have no clue what dialogue you're referring, but sure as hell don't remember any quest dialogue that needed 20 recordings for each race/gender combo. It's almost like you think that the PC is voiced... even if it was, it wouldn't be much effort since most responses are a couple of words max.

Maybe I can't even remember the game clearly now it's been over a month since my test drive... that's a pretty scary thought. :shock: (but not too unwelcome in this particular games case)

 

[aries202]

HI

I would just like to add that although Ken Rolston was lead designer for Oblivion - he also has bosses (pete and todd) that tells him what to make/put in the game designer wise.

And then it is either their way of the high way...

bye

 

[Lumpy]

WTF - have you actually played the game? I have no clue what dialogue you're referring, but sure as hell don't remember any quest dialogue that needed 20 recordings for each race/gender combo. It's almost like you think that the PC is voiced... even if it was, it wouldn't be much effort since most responses are a couple of words max.

Maybe I can't even remember the game clearly now it's been over a month since my test drive... that's a pretty scary thought. :shock: (but not too unwelcome in this particular games case)

Uhh... sorry, I meant non-quest dialogue. "I've heard the Fighters Guild is recruiting again." has probably been recorded 20 times.

 

[Micmu]

Uhh... sorry, I meant non-quest dialogue. "I've heard the Fighters Guild is recruiting again." has probably been recorded 20 times.

There are 4 generic male and 4 generic female voices, not 2x10.

 

[Lumpy]

Uhh... sorry, I meant non-quest dialogue. "I've heard the Fighters Guild is recruiting again." has probably been recorded 20 times.

There are 4 generic male and 4 generic female voices, not 2x10.

Ah, hell, whatever. It's still idiotic.

 

[Data4]

HI

I would just like to add that although Ken Rolston was lead designer for Oblivion - he also has bosses (pete and todd) that tells him what to make/put in the game designer wise.

And then it is either their way of the high way...

bye

Well, shit, guys. Looks like everyone got taken to school, here. Might as well close the thread.

-D4

 

[Rat Keeng]

Yeah, everyone knows lead designers have no say in things, and any developer would do anything, to head up the wonderful revolutionbreaking genredestroying next-next-generation godly piece of software that is Obleeviyan.

Another classic line is that "I've heard the dark brotherhood cums in your sleep" one, but really, as far as I remember there are tons of identical lines with different voices. There was this one shrine with five people, and they all said the exact same thing, in five different voices. Mighty pathetic, and not something you can just fix with mods, at least not for the "voiced dialogue is supreme immersion" crowd. But then again, who the hell wants to bother with those fucktards anyway.

And even if someone's willing to fix it, writing decent dialogue for Oblivion is a big fucking waste. Not to mention it'd feel completely out of place with Bethesda's shitbird writing, so no point in thinking that'll get made.

 

[Keldryn]

That's all? After "it's easy to pick apart anyone's design skills by giving a handful of examples of poor design, but ignoring things that were done right.", all I get is "well, there was a poorly done smaller world, and then there was a poorly done 3rd person mode"?

Actually, I meant to go back and finish that section of my reply once I'd written the rest of it (even my writing is non-linear!), but I forgot to. :D I could do it now, but I think we're both getting bored with this discussion, so we'll just have to agree to disagree for now. (The scale of the world in Daggerfall and how it is implemented is one of my biggest complaints about the game though.)

Fighter? Yes. Fighter's job is to, well, fight & kill. But thieves and mages could be done very differently than "fighter who kills differently".

You can do more with a Fighter than just give him different ways to kill things. The skill system in the Elder Scrolls games is robust enough to cover a near-endless variety of character concepts, but forcing those skills into Combat, Magic, and Stealth categories -- and using that as the basis for character advancement -- kind of artifically reinforces the Fighter/Mage/Thief stereotypes. Did the pre-Morrowind games do it the same way? I can't remember anymore; it's been a good 8 or 9 years since I played Daggerfall.

Fair enough, but it would be appropriate to address his arguments, instead of dismissing them with "I don't agree"

I thought I did write quite a bit about why I feel that voice-overs aren't always inferior to text-only dialogues.

There is no reason, even in general, why a game with a dialogue system should do the bubble thing, other than to support your argument, of course.

I never said that a game should do that; I was simply using it as an example of a case where it breaks my immersion in a game to suddenly see text dialogue floating above characters' heads. Ultima IX comes to mind as the most visible example. Deus Ex also does it, if you have the sound turned off or "subtitles" turned on. The interactive dialogue still takes place in the usual interface for it, but the non-interactive bits float above or beside the character... I think. Or maybe it's just at the bottom of the screen. In either case, it breaks the immersion to not hear a guard's comment as you walk past him in first-person view.

Does your position come with arguments and points?

Does yours?

The thing is, you insulted me because I insulted someone else. I have no problem with that, of course, but that usually sets up the tone of a conversation.

I did apologize for that. However, your tone tends to be just as insulting and rude in pretty much every post I've read of yours where you disagree with someone else.

 

[Vault Dweller]

... we'll just have to agree to disagree for now.

Not a problem.

Did the pre-Morrowind games do it the same way? I can't remember anymore; it's been a good 8 or 9 years since I played Daggerfall.

No, you could make any character with 36 skills, advantages & disadvantages. DF featured probably one of the best character system ever designed.

Does your position come with arguments and points?

Does yours?

That was in response to a brief "Nope" where a more detailed reply was expected.

I hope you do realize that "text-based dialogues" are the ONLY way to present a meaningful conversation with choices in games.

Nope.

I did apologize for that. However, your tone tends to be just as insulting and rude in pretty much every post I've read of yours where you disagree with someone else.

Any links, so I can improve myself and become a better human being?

 

[Jasede]

http://www.scientology.com/

 

[denizsi]

About Ken's part in Beth adopting VO: Patrick Stewart (as well as the other 2). I think that tells a lot.

It's apparent that they wanted to further hype the game with big names, and the rest of VO is just a gimmicky way of getting rid of writing larger chunks of text and better quest design.

Additionally, you just don't waste your financial resources into big names without a marketing plot anyway. So, I believe that at the point Ken was faced with the VO decisions, it must have already been settled that big names would be hired, and such an intention to pay that much money (how much ever that is) to big names can only mean that it doesn't matter how much you tell others to fuck off: it's already in, and totally out of your hands.

I'm not an apologist for Ken, and I certainly acknowledge all the fuck ups he has personally made; but I simply don't believe that VO in OB had anything to do with him.

As for the debate over target audiances; I think, Patrick Stewart and Sean Bean are pretty good ways of catering to both age demographics suggested earlier in this thread, without making the fact that they are just sold out fucks all too apparent so even morons (of both audiances) may notice it.

edit: Just noticed this is a week old, but does it matter?