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[King of Dragon Pass] This game actively punishes you for being successful.

Silva

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What Norfleet says.

I dont remember my clan splitting in my last couple games, but then I played the short game where you just form a tribe and stays 10 years as its king (I find this mode more fun than the Long game with it's long central quest).

Try to keep you population from crowding /less than 1000, so the event never comes up. But if it DOES come up, simply split it and give some gifts to the splitters so you'll have a potential ally clan as neighbor.

If you're finding this event a game-breaker, you need to gitgud.

Edit: what version are you playing? I've finished both the PC and IOS versions a handful times each, and the later is much easier. I prefer the PC version. Sure, you can enter an inescapable spiral of shit if you manage the clan bad, but it's more gratifying when you gitgud.
 
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If you're finding this event a game-breaker, you need to gitgud.

Edit: what version are you playing? I've finished both the PC and IOS versions a handful times each, and the later is much easier. I prefer the PC version. Sure, you can enter an inescapable spiral of shit if you manage the clan bad, but it's more gratifying when you gitgud.

A lot of big talk for someone who has so little knowledge on how the game actually works and has already been proven wrong twice. This is why I like coming on here. Codexers can be so entertaining at times.
 
Joined
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Troll OP is a bad troll. Refusing to split the clan is notoriously the easiest way to break the game. It marginally increases difficulty in the short-term, but ultimately turns you into an unstoppable juggernaut. I don’t know how you could avoid knowing that by doing even a cursory survey of the community; it’s one of the most frequently articulated criticisms of the game.

Edit: In fact, the game straight up “lies” to you about possible win conditions a number of times. You can win the game with Kallyr becoming queen, despite the game telling you that you’re making a huge mistake every step of the way, you can repeatedly antagonize every faction except dragons, and you can brute force your way through hero quests picking the “wrong” answers with a little luck, stats, and prep.
 
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Peacefriend

Novice
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you can brute force your way through hero quests picking the “wrong” answers with a little luck, stats, and prep.
In fact some “wrong” answers (answers different from what you knew from the myth) were more likely to give a good outcome, that was nifty.
 

Silva

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This talk reminds me I should go back to Six Ages. Finished it once and found it okay but not on KODP level and so never returned. The game is probably better than I gave it credit for.
 
Joined
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Refusing to split the clan is notoriously the easiest way to break the game.

I bet you haven't even beaten the game by refusing to split the clan all the way. If you can somehow avoid the options being greyed out, show me some screenshots and how it's done. Put your money where your mouth is.
 
Joined
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Clan split is not mandatory.
You can play pacifist.
You can slave ducks.
It's not quite "mandatory", but you will eventually run out of options if you don't address the core underlying issue, that of having too many people for a primitive tribal government to manage.

The solution is, of course, constant bloodthirsty warfare. Having a bunch of people die ought to kick this can down the road for a bit, while having the benefit of smiting your enemies.

Alternatively, just let it happen. If you invested most of your wealth into infrastructure, they can't take it with them when they leave, and you can probably afford to give them a warm send-off and gain a friendly ally out of the deal. It really isn't that bad. Or even bad at all, really.

I would not say you can play "pacifist", but you can certainly play peaceful. You will, however, have to defend yourself, the world isn't a peaceful place. Even Gandhi knows that words must be backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!

I'm a little dubious about that. What's the point of having an ally in this game other than the necessity of forming a tribe? You normally just call them in for a raid or whatever, and they are actually not a big help. On top of that, you gotta split the spoils with them lol...
 

Silva

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I'm a little dubious about that. What's the point of having an ally in this game other than the necessity of forming a tribe? You normally just call them in for a raid or whatever, and they are actually not a big help. On top of that, you gotta split the spoils with them lol...
- The certainty that a neighbor won't raid you.
- Increased chances of asking for help on a raid/ giving food/cattle/horses/treasure/myths/heroquest.
- Increased chance to form a tribe.

I mean, it's all situational, but the first point alone makes it worth it IMO.
 
Joined
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Refusing to split the clan is notoriously the easiest way to break the game.

I bet you haven't even beaten the game by refusing to split the clan all the way. If you can somehow avoid the options being greyed out, show me some screenshots and how it's done. Put your money where your mouth is.


You can’t increase the clan indefinitely (I never said you could), but you can easily maintain a population larger than 2000, which is more than enough to steamroll the game, even on hard.
 
Joined
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Refusing to split the clan is notoriously the easiest way to break the game.

I bet you haven't even beaten the game by refusing to split the clan all the way. If you can somehow avoid the options being greyed out, show me some screenshots and how it's done. Put your money where your mouth is.

You can’t increase the clan indefinitely (I never said you could), but you can easily maintain a population larger than 2000, which is more than enough to steamroll the game, even on hard.

Okay, that I can get behind. I also just realized that maybe they changed some things around between the IOS and Steam versions?
 

Silva

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It didn't seem that artificial to me: There are only so many people that can be adequately controlled under a primitive tribal government.

I'm sure Genghis Khan's tribe is at least a little bigger than 1000 people...
You're approaching the game with a warlike mentality. Remember, the point is just rising in reputation by emulating your ancestors and myths. Feeded people, happy neighbors, a fair reign, and heroquests are better than wars. (well, except if you're a devout of Humakt :obviously:)
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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I do share the misgiving that there is a disconnect between the player's reasonable goals, the player's reasonable choices, and the resulting outcomes. It is true that some of the game's genius resides in the fact that you cannot just powergame your way through it. But I've still found aspects somewhat frustrating every time I've played.
The thing to understand is that reality is counterintuitive, often like this game. If reasonable people doing reasonable things always obtained reasonable outcomes, the world wouldn't be the way it is. Rather, the world is a system in which the reasonable action towards a reasonable goal tends to create a pushback that thwarts progress to the point where it is often counterproductive. Often, achieving a goal involves doing exactly the opposite, causing this backlash to work in the direction you want.
I get it. As I said, this is a real part of the game's genius: that it presents as a kind of simplified turn-based strategy game (akin to a BBS door game like Barren Realms Elite or something) in which your goal is to manage a settlement to create maximal military power to expand your land and subjugate your neighbors, but then plays as a somewhat idealized account of Celtic tribal morality or whatever, in which the goal is not to maximize scale and military power, but to manage a tribe that is in accord within itself as well as with its neighbors, nature/spirits/gods, and its cultural principles (embodied by its ancestors).

This is super clever. And it's coupled with a visual aesthetic and written style (subject to things that I find aggressively stupid and almost designed to ruin the player experience, such as the ducks) that are as mature and sophisticated as this gameplay trick. For all this, I think that KODP is a beautiful game and an important one.

But I guess that still doesn't change my underlying issue, which is simply that when a game presents a simplified turn-based strategy game in which you expand your territory, develop your HQ, and conquer your enemies, and then doesn't really let you play that way, it inevitably will lead to player frustration. The designers made a deliberate bait-and-switch, and they get the credit and the blame for the consequences. Likewise, the hero quests present as CYOAs in which if you select the right character and properly reenact the story, you should prevail. And those quests are amazingly well done -- I love the way in which the quest approximates the story but isn't identical, so you don't have a script to follow. But there's then this random layer where, as noted, you might fail (in a significant way!) despite doing everything right, or might succeed despite doing many things wrong.

You don't need to persuade me that the real world works like this. You don't need to persuade me that myth itself often works this way. I get it. But a central aspect of what makes a game a game is the orderliness of its rules. Referees making bad calls isn't a feature; it's a glitch. But KODP is full of refs making bad calls. And it is full of that childhood experience where you're playing a game for the first time, make what seems like a winning move, and then your friend says, "ACTUALLY there's another rule I didn't mention before, and that means I win." Does all of this mimic real life? Sure. But, again, with the credit comes the blame. No one has fun in real life when stuff happens for no good reason. You might stoically bear it or greet it with gallows humor. But no one thinks, "Awesome, love that the NBA finals were decided by the ref improperly calling a foul." Or "Fantastic, my best efforts to reconcile with a friend were completely misunderstood." Mimicking these frustrations in a game may be clever, but it's not necessarily fun.
 

Silva

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I get it.. [the game] presents as a kind of simplified turn-based strategy game... in which your goal is to manage a settlement to create maximal military power to expand your land and subjugate your neighbors
Where did you get that impression? I'm not saying it isn't there, it's just that I've always perceived this game, since first contact, as a clan survival simulation where warfare was just another aspect, not more or less important than feeding your people or being a fair ruler.

The intro makes it clear, IMO, that your goal is to settle this new land besides other clans that are trying to survive just like you.
 
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mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,716
Location
Ingrija
Where did you get that impression? I'm not saying it isn't there, it's just that I've always perceived this game, since first contact, as a clan survival simulation where warfare was just another aspect, not more or less important than feeding your people or being a fair ruler.

The intro makes it clear, IMO, that your goal is to settle this new land besides other clans that are trying to survive just like you.

But killing or subjugating everyone who has valuable stuff or may present a threat IS the most efficient and reliable way to "ensure clan survival".
 

Norfleet

Moderator
Joined
Jun 3, 2005
Messages
12,250
I get it. As I said, this is a real part of the game's genius: that it presents as a kind of simplified turn-based strategy game (akin to a BBS door game like Barren Realms Elite or something) in which your goal is to manage a settlement to create maximal military power to expand your land and subjugate your neighbors, but then plays as a somewhat idealized account of Celtic tribal morality or whatever, in which the goal is not to maximize scale and military power, but to manage a tribe that is in accord within itself as well as with its neighbors, nature/spirits/gods, and its cultural principles (embodied by its ancestors).
It does sort of feel like that (props for remembering BRE) at first, but you quickly realize this is not how the game works and that this is something else. My first impression was that it was less like BRE and more like Hammurabi.

Incidentally, Hammurabi has a pretty counter-intuitive win process, too. To get elite score in Hammurabi, hoard food and wealth until it causes a plague and half your population dies. Everyone is now rich, as you've gotten the benefits earned by having a large pop for much of the game, but at score-time, the loot is now being split amongst far fewer people. Counter-intuitive and weird? Well, it worked for Europe in the 1300s.

I'm a little dubious about that. What's the point of having an ally in this game other than the necessity of forming a tribe? You normally just call them in for a raid or whatever, and they are actually not a big help. On top of that, you gotta split the spoils with them lol...
Given that the primary purpose of raiding an enemy tends not to be about the loot, which is just gravy, but about beating up a hated foe, and also, pruning down surplus pops, this is fine, since the goal is almost always KILL AS MANY AS POSSIBLE.

I'm sure Genghis Khan's tribe is at least a little bigger than 1000 people...
It actually wasn't. The entire point is that becoming Genghis Khan meant he had to upgrade his primitive tribal government and become king, which is sort of what you're trying to do in the game...
 

Silva

Arcane
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Given that the primary purpose of raiding an enemy tends not to be about the loot, which is just gravy, but about beating up a hated foe,
I admit I only raid because tradition asks for it, otherwise my magic suffers. So I did it every couple years or so.

I like playing the wise pacifist and mediator. You know, like a proper Lhankor-Mhy devout. :obviously:
 

Norfleet

Moderator
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Jun 3, 2005
Messages
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I raid constantly, as often as possible, anytime I have an enemy. Because the button is there and the opportunity is simply wasted if you don't use it. Also, because, as mentioned, the clan will overgrow even faster if you don't have some kind of attrition rate.
 

Nutria

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한양
Strap Yourselves In
When I raid it's usually because there's some other clan that has committed atrocities against my people that need to be avenged. I'm enraged and also I know that if we don't retaliate, they're just going to keep coming back and hitting us again.

This is one of the things I love about KoDP. It really forces you into the mindset of people who are living at that level of social organization. That's what puts the "role playing" into RPG for me.
 

Norfleet

Moderator
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I generally retaliate until they finally flee the area, they'll just be getting raided 4+ times a year until they go away. Fire season starts and it's like "Oh boy, here I go killin' again!".
 

mondblut

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It actually wasn't. The entire point is that becoming Genghis Khan meant he had to upgrade his primitive tribal government and become king, which is sort of what you're trying to do in the game...

In another timeline, the mongol conquests have never happened, because Genghis' subjects kept objecting that he's got more warriors than the ancestral other honor prescribes, being stronger than other tribes is against the mongolian ways, and he must split half of his lands and people into an independent rival gang at once because reasons.
 

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