KOTOR2's ending was fine... (some spoilers, be wary)

[Higher Game]

I don't understand why people bash the ending. It's not what it should have been, but it was a huge step up from the original, and very mature for a Star Wars game. In fact, it's probably one of the best endings a Star Wars game has ever gotten.

The first KOTOR's ending just involved the light or dark side winning and celebrating. In other words, it had a typical Star Wars ending, or to an even further extent, a typical RPG ending. In other words, it was unoriginal. I enjoyed the game a lot, so I didn't mind the cheesy ending too much, but it still left a slightly bad taste in my mouth, so to speak.

Now, KOTOR2's story was far more advanced than the first one's. Kreia explains more of the true nature of the Sith, the true evil. The whole Koribban cave scene was one of the best parts of the game, it was simply chilling. "Apathy is death". And giving 5 credits to the beggar results in his mugging. Even if he wasn't mugged, it would have "weakened" him by making him dependent. As someone with the force who can manipulate people, even your friends, this revelation really hits home with your character.

To summarize this, KOTOR2's story was much greater, so we expected the ending to be much greater. However, the game could have EASILY ended with the death of Darth Nihilus. There could have been a big celebration and the credits roll, like in every other Star Wars game ever. However, the last stage, which many condemned as a last minute add on, was more of a bonus stage, an addition to the "normal" ending where the star destroyer is destroyed and everyone gets home in time for tea.

After defeating Sion, one of the creepiest villians in recent memory, Kreia explains what happens to your characters and some about the origin of true Sith. No flashy video scenes here, just great storytelling. The ending video is just to let you know it's "game over", not to awe you with "t3h graph1x!!!" Hence, it got a lot of flak from the fanboiz who expected some eye candy and an easily digestible ending. KOTOR2's ending, overall, was more like The Empire Strikes Back's. It left more questions than answers, but it was still great, and it leaves room open for another game.

KOTOR2 had the perfect subtitle: the Sith Lords. To those who haven't played it, expect a darker, more mature Star Wars game, much like Episode 3 is (hopefully) going to be. It's not Nethack, but it isn't Diablo either. It's a fun game from beginning to end, and a gem of an RPG in today's world of mediocre games. The game gets 8/10 for me, the ending gets 9/10 (only loses 1 point for leaving out some stuff), and it gets 10/10 by Star Wars standards.

I hope everyone here enjoyed it as much as I did!

 

[Claw]

CONTROVERSY!!!


No.

 

[Spazmo]

Are you purposely trolling? Is your next topic going to be "Hey, guys, NWN was actually really good!"? KOTOR2's ending was crap, and that really can't be argued.

 

[Higher Game]

I'm not trolling. Trolling involves Goatse trick links or stupid, worthless posts. I'm giving you my real opinion here, and I'm sorry that you don't like that. If you disagree with it, then explain why. Why is KOTOR1's cut and paste, typical ending better than KOTOR2's more philosophical approach?

We're just lucky we got the ending at all. Nihilus could have simply been replaced with Sion, and that would be it. No dark Jedi academy, no Kreia revelations, no Sith history and background information, nothing. Just everyone has a party and goes home, yawn, same thing we're used to that we don't have to think about too hard. The whole last stage was icing on the cake that we're lucky to have gotten. The other stuff that was left out could be considered the cherry, I guess.

NWN was crap, and that can't be argued, but KOTOR2 gets a bad rap for not having the typical Star Wars ending. You know, many people think The Empire Strikes Back was the best Star Wars movie, myself included. It's simply deeper and more psychological than the first, and the third wasn't that good at all.

There's a difference between liking something and appreciating it. You might like KOTOR1 more, but you should at least appreciate KOTOR2. I like Rambo more than Citizen Kane, but I understand that Kane is clearly the superior movie. I try to be as objective as possible when looking at games, much like movies.

 

[Spazmo]

I'm not trolling. Trolling involves Goatse trick links or stupid, worthless posts.

Check. And I'd thank you to explain to me how saying KOTOR2's ending sucked is in any way a statement of praise for KOTOR1's ending. You don't seem to have considered the possibility that both endings actually sucked, but in different ways.

 

[Higher Game]

Fine, I'll admit that, while 95% of people wanted a cut and paste ending for KOTOR2, some people simply didn't like it at all. This minority has just come to expect too much from a mainstream, Star Wars game. By Star Wars standards, and even overall RPG standards, the ending was more than adequate.

I don't see what was left out of KOTOR2's ending. The fates of the characters are explained, the good guys "won", and the loops left are not serious enough as to hurt the enjoyment of the game, but they're big enough to leave room open for a third game, which would be great.

Leaving out some parts and keeping the ending so simple left me with a nihilistic, empty feeling about the story and everything, which was intentional. It was a truly dark ending, no matter if you're "light" or "dark", you know you are a destroyer and your fate is to remain so. Very few games have endings like this.

Come on, read a Star Wars book, watch the latest movies, play some recent RPGs , and then tell me KOTOR2 had a bad ending. It's not perfect, but it's definitely in the 90th percentile of quality. It's better than most.

 

[Volourn]

KOTOR1's ending was blaisse. KOTOR2's ending was awful. There was nothing creative about it. Nothing.

 

[Thydron]

I found the ending utterly confusing.
When i played lightside, i ended up flying away from malachor, leaving it intact,
When i played as darkside it seemed to explode with me on it. I'm pretty sure the difference wasn't because of the light/dark but i'll be damned if i know what did it.
Are there any endings i missed? i couldn't bring myself to play it again.
And did anything happen with the remote / G0T0 that i mised or does it just end abrubtly when G0T0 sneaks up on the remote?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

KotOR2's ending was just too unpolished. Like others have pointed out elsewhere, there's a lot of things left unresolved that definitely SHOULD have been resolved - like GOTO vs. REMOTE, the wreck of the Ebon Hawk, and so forth.

It was also a bit.. Hasty.. in terms of feel. Fight a bunch of Sith. Fight broken dude repeatedly until he finally shuts up and dies. Then you fight Darth Traya twice. She then tells you some stuff and roll the credits. Now, I really liked being told the neat stuff, but having a huge area with nothing but fighting and more fighting to end the game just plain sucked considering how decent the rest of the game was.

The whole fighting the main bad guys not once, but either twice or five or six times was pretty lame as well. It was like a huge cop out. All it boils down to is WHACKWHACKWHACKWHACK with little to no substance there. It felt cheap.

 

[Volourn]

Hell, like Jed mention in another thread, the most fititng 'end battle' was the one with the stupid wookieee and that silly girl. It was actually challenging. Of cours,e it made absolutely 0 sense - like the rest of the ending.

R00fles!

 

[Higher Game]

Ok, then let's hear what could have been done to improve it, then. I happened to like the absence of flashy videos and overly dramatic acting. I liked the dark, mature feeling it had. The lack of sharp details in the fate is appropriate because future reading isn't precise (remember Yoda telling Luke not to save his friends in TESB? Yeah, real helpful...).

The struggle in the end was not between people, but rather ideologies. Kreia's true Sith, nihilistic approach, and your abolutist (good or evil, it doesn't matter) approach are incompatible. I was impressed that KOTOR2 had some a sliver of real philosophy in it!

Of course, it is sort of justification for the ridiculously hackneyed good/evil options, but that's another story. You see the force as good or evil, while Kreia sees it as a tool that is neutral that can accomplish either, but good/evil means nothing to her, just what the user intends. A truly neutral approach (even if it could be considered "true Sith") to the force was long lacking in a Star Wars game, and Kreia fit the role perfectly to the end.

 

[PennyAnte]

The ending leaves so many threads unwoven. Malachor was, as has been said many times over, a set of skull-drillingly boring combat mazes.

Many things you noted that are philosophically rich are, in fact, quite good for a Star Wars game, but they are not part of the ending. The beggar and the five credits is one example.

How do you reason past the Ebon Hawk crashing and wedging itself into rock, then flying away fine? They at least needed a scene with T3 repairing it. And I think several characters never had their fate explained.

I liked many KOTOR2 story elements a lot, especially some of the aspects you referenced. But the ending was abominable.

 

[Volourn]

"I liked the dark, mature feeling it had."

FO was dark, and amture. KOTOR2 wasn't.

And, Kreia was evil. She was the the lowest symbol of eveil. Anyone who cna't see that is bullshitting.

"Let's slaughter planets including including innocent children!" was her motto.

 

[PennyAnte]

Agreed. The whole thing was still kind of Fisher Price, even if it was better than average.

 

[Higher Game]

Well, some of you probably thought the combat was "boring" because you had l33t characters. Remember that Star Wars isn't Nethack, and a significant part of the audience is young. The game is not overly challenging. But, for most people, it is challenging enough, not "boring". The last stage was hard for my younger brother, for example. Well, not having the patience to heal after every fight was probably a contributing factor to the difficulty.

If it's really too easy or boring, then limit yourself. The game is not balanced for the hardcore RPG veteran, and it shouldn't have to be. RPG veterans should know how to hold back instead of being ubermench powergamers.

 

[PennyAnte]

The industry needs to stop dumbing down. You can only dumb down so far before you hit infant level. Soon, we'll all be playing with the video game equivalent of squeaky toys.

 

[Volourn]

LOL I should gimp my character to have a challenge. If I ever play again; I'll play naked with he weakest weapon (not unarmed as that's overpwoered) and use 0 force powers, and no npcs.

R00fles! Lame.

The game should be balanced. It wasn't. It failed. Not me.

 

[Higher Game]

Kreia's true position is debatable. Helping others just to make yourself feel better isn't truly benevolent, you're doing it partly for yourself (and to get that bonus when you max out the light side points!) It's almost like the Star Wars guys are making fun of themselves!

And, perhaps stealing a ship isn't wrong if you intend to use it for something worthwhile, instead of spice or luxury trading or whatever capitalist Star Wars aliens do.

The point is, Kreia is not an absolutist. "Good' and "evil" mean nothing to her. She does what benefits herself, which can be either "good" or "evil". She is outside of the good/evil scale. True Sith, therefore, can't really be seen as evil.

Man, I really need to play through it again, I would probably notice more stuff in a second playthrough.

 

[Jed]

My consular had a +41 WIS bonus, which replaced my defense bonus after a talk with the Handmaiden. I just force-waved my way through the last third of the game. I force-waved Darth Sion's ass all over the place. Every time he got up, I knocked his rotting ass back down. A pitiful death for such a creepy villain.

By the way, I chose not to ask, but if you do, what's behind Darth Nihilius' mask?

 

[Jed]

She does what benefits herself, which can be either "good" or "evil". She is outside of the good/evil scale. True Sith, therefore, can't really be seen as evil.

Neutral evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. They have no particular objection to working with others or, for that matter, going it on their own. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the every-man-for-himself attitude of chaotic characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes. An unscrupulous mercenary, a common thief, and a double-crossing informer who betrays people to the authorities to protect and advance himself are typical examples of neutral evil characters.

Sounds like your description of Kreia to a T.

 

[Higher Game]

Volourne, guys have beaten Nethack blind (I think it's called Zen playing, not sure). Some people go through without armor. Some refuse to use spells. Of course, a lot of this is for bragging rights, but sometimes it's really for people who want a challenge.

The game was well balanced for most people. It would be stupid to make the game where only 10% of people can beat it. The "talented tenth" is smart enough to limit themselves anyway, which is a normal practice for mature gamers. Who cares what a few programmers think is "balanced" or not? Make your own rules. And believe me, it's very possible to beat the game without force powers.

Yes, games are getting dumber, but KOTOR2 is a step in the right direction.

 

[PennyAnte]

By the way, I chose not to ask, but if you do, what's behind Darth Nihilius' mask?

TEH VOYYYYD!!

 

[Spazmo]

By the way, I chose not to ask, but if you do, what's behind Darth Nihilius' mask?

IIRC Visas tells you "it was just a man!" or something. I glossed over A LOT of the dialog in KOTOR2 because so much of it is pretentious bullshit.

And there's no excuse for how easy KOTOR2's combat was. I wasn't even paying particularly close attention to what items and stats I was increasing and I was still a destructive powerhouse. That Darth Sion dude--uber badass who killed the entire crew of a Republic battlecruiser just by willing it--was nothing. I tore through him like paper, three times. When the game constantly throws so much phat lewt and unbalanced powers at you, easy, boring combat is what happens. Not to mention the fact that every other dialog seems to have stat bonuses.

PC: "Hey, Handmaiden, tell me about your mom!"

Handmaiden: <blathers for ten minutes about her mom being a Jedi>

PC: "A Jedi, huh? Well maybe that wasn't so bad?"

Handmaiden: [Influence: Success] "Shucks, maybe you're right! I'll become a Jedi now so I can use a lightsaber and actually be useful."

PC HAS GAINED +10 WIS

HANDMAIDEN HAS GAINED +10 STR, DEX, CON

 

[Saran]

Fair enough, it could have been worse i guess, but it wasnt a "good" ending, i liked KOTOR 1, i was shocked at how good it was becuase like many others i had come to expect Star Shit rather than Star Wars, but i loved it despite the fact it wasnt a masterpiece.

But one of the main things i like about it is that it wrapped up, i got to see what happened to everyone, i was able to find out the backstorys of all of my crew, i felt as if i was playing a Star Wars game, rather than a game with bits of Star Wars.

Kotor 2 was clumsy as fuck, the crew were a pack of annoying bastards that required more effort than it was worth to talk too, there were clearly chunks missing from the dialogues when you talked to people(Just look at Visas, one minute shes trying to kill you and the next shes giving your ego a handjob with all of the "I saw you through the force, your powerfull, you have a massive cock, blah blah blah), and then there was the "Deeper" aspects of the game, yeah, nothing like having an annoying bitch yapping on again and again about how doing good is bad and bad is good and monkeys are purple, good for her, but its too simplistic, its like a five year olds attempt at a morality tale, while the first game was pretty straight forward at least it didnt bore you to tears with unnecessary pseudo-intellectual bullshit, the only ones that got anything out of that were those tits that put down Jedi as their religion.

But the biggest crime is that all of the above could have been solved if the game had gotten the time it needed, all of the stuff Kreia was spouting out could have been woven into the main story, all of the fucked up dialogues that you could have with your crew would have been a lot more sensical if they had devoted more time to forming a relationship with your shipmates rather than just getting them to spout off crap whenever you walked onto the ship, and the ending could have been worthy of being compared to SW:TESB, rather than the quickly put toghether piece of shit it is now if they had set a reasonable deadline for the game, so no, KOTOR was better in all aspects storywise, you were able to get all of the backstory from your shipmates, the ending was satisfying and the twist was handled very well. (if a little cliched.)

Ill agree when you say it could have been a lot worse, but christ, it was very fucking dissapointing, and a waste of potential, infact what makes the big fuckup at the end worse is the hints of a more mature and cerebral plot that you get during the game it could have shown KOTOR as the simplistic game it is, but it didnt.

And what the fuck are you on about with the cut and paste ending?

Noone i saw complaining wanted that, what they wanted was an ending that isnt deep in a "What the fuck happened?!?!" kind of way but a mature and well thought out way.

Those Tits that go around calling people that enjoyed the game idiots are out of line, but your not exactly a shining example of maturity when you suggest that those of us that wanted a polished game rather than the rushed half finished thing we have now are simpletons, we didnt want a cut and paste, what we wanted was "Threads tied up and a finished ending".

 

[Higher Game]

I abhor the D&D morality system. Things like that are just hard to put in games. Even if Kreia came off as evil, she was clearly intended to be outside the limits of that useless scale.