Last Epoch - time travel action-RPG

[Grunker]

other people are saying it's super RNG-heavy and the only way to get good items because all looted ones are essentially useless.

You fundamentally don't understand the core concept of the itemization. The whole reason Epoch's system is so good is that you can't just craft items. Crafting enhances items - crafting doesn't compete with loot drops, it works in tandem with them. So you need the drops AND the crafting. So saying "looted ones are essentially useless" makes no sense whatsoever - you literally can't craft items. Items have stats that determine how much can be crafted on it, so good items are complex. On the one hand, you want a good item to drop, on the other hand, you want its crafting potential to be great, then you want to plan out the craft and then finally there's some RNG in how it turns out (though you can manage the RNG somewhat with the right crafting items).

What you're referring to is that the unique and set design can be hit or miss. There are several great uniques (and some uniques drop with crafting potential, so you can craft on top of those too), but as of now, most green items are, by and large, useless. This feels less like a specific design issue with the items themselves and more like set items have no place in the system.

 

[Lacrymas]

What I mean by the dropped items being useless is that they are useless if not improved upon with crafting, so you aren't looking for specific items per se but a base with enough "crafting potential", so any ol' item with a generic model will do as long as it has CP (lol). I don't understand what this system is trying to fix or address. It still has the RNG of actually getting an item with enough CP to drop, but then you also have the added RNG of the crafting destroying the item or whatever. How is this better than just having cool items drop? If this is trying to comment on Grim Dawn's system where the character building is so extensive that the loot pool is humongous and getting something for your build is extremely hard, then why have crafting potential at all? Just allow us to change 1 stat or however much is deemed necessary. Even then, it's misunderstanding hack and slashers. You don't play just one character forever, you play multiple and tailor your choice based on what items have dropped for you. Who has the patience or desire to run random maps thousands of times with a single character, hoping to get a specific item to drop? Or maybe it's trying to address Grim Dawn's tiered items where 1 blue item has multiple copies of itself for different level ranges, which is indeed sus when they can just allow us to upgrade/downgrade an item through the crafting. LE's crafting seems unnecessarily complicated and philosophically wrong, where the outcome is either literally item editing if the RNG goes your way or extremely pointless when it doesn't. On top of that, the game only has 5 classes with no class mixing, so the item pool is limited by design already.

 

[Grunker]

What I mean by the dropped items being useless is that they are useless if not improved upon with crafting

This makes no sense. It's like saying leveling up is useless without spending skill points. You're trying hard to explain a system you clearly haven't understood.

 

[abija]

I don't understand what this system is trying to fix or address. It still has the RNG of actually getting an item with enough CP to drop, but then you also have the added RNG of the crafting destroying the item or whatever.

It lets you customize gear without making drops useless. The rng is just a higher cost for heavy customization (replacing multiple affixes or going for highest values). The better the base the less rng you need, keeping the drops still valuable.

 

[Lacrymas]

You're trying hard to explain a system you clearly haven't understood.

I haven't and that's why I'm asking, lol.

 

[Grunker]

You're trying hard to explain a system you clearly haven't understood.

I haven't and that's why I'm asking, lol.

You're not asking. You're making statements like "loot drops are useless" and "you aren't looking for specific items" and "any ol' item with a generic model will do as long as it has CP". You're whining about something meanwhile making it completely clear to everyone who has played 10 hours of the game that you have drawn farreaching conclusions from watching a YouTube video or two. Which begs the question of why exactly you *are* whining instead of asking.

You aren't looking for "a base with an amount of CP." You're trying to apply PoE-logic instead of just asking or reading about how the system works.

When you say "any ol' item with a generic model will do as long as it has CP" it's clear you're thinking about this in terms of "finding a white item then crafting on it" to use PoE-terminology. You have to realize it makes you look incredibly stupid that you make such confident statements about the system's problems when that statement itself shows you haven't even grasped its most easily-understood basics that reading any guide would tell you.

You don't find bases. The closest thing in PoE-terminology would be to say you craft on top of yellows/rares. There is not competition or overlap between item drops and crafting because any item you ever wear will be crafted on top on, but despite what you seem to think this doesn't make loot useless at all - quite the reverse. Whereas in PoE most great rares will be scoured and then crafted, you can't do that in Epoch. You *need* the great drop, you need that fantastic item. *Then* you craft on it. Loot and crafting are completely separate systems. There's no overlap.

One loot drop might be fantastic in itself but have limited crafting potential. Another loot drop the reverse. And everything in between. Some might have amazing potential for one important affix, but secondary aspects might be hard to craft while realizing that potential. While another item might be great all around but you'll have difficulty pumping its most important affix. And so on and so forth.

 

[Lacrymas]

Sooooo, exactly what I said? You find "bases", i.e. an item with CP on it (or does every item have CP? It hardly matters in this case), then add shit on top or upgrade already-present stats with crafting. Which means the best items come from crafting with heavy RNG. Which is what I said. What exactly do I not understand here?

 

[Grunker]

What exactly do I not understand here?

This:

You find "bases", i.e. an item with CP on it

Which means the best items come from crafting

1. You don't find "good bases" (i.e. white items or items to scour).

2. They don't come "from crafting" (i.e. you don't create the item, rather, you have limited control over modifying it).

But I mean, explaining further is kind of useless. I may as well write a detailed guide at this point, and you could just look one up at google to dispel your misconceptions. Or hell, try out the damn game.

 

[Lacrymas]

You are splitting hairs at this point. Don't you have to find a good item on top of which to craft? And don't you have to craft in order to get the best items? It hardly matters whether the base is white or not.

 

[Grunker]

Don't you have to find a good item

Wait, I thought

dropped items being useless

you aren't looking for specific items

any ol' item with a generic model will do as long as it has CP

How can items be "good" if they are "useless", "unspecific" and "any ol' item with a generic model will do"?

Do you even understand your point yourself, if you even have one?

 

[Lacrymas]

Soooo, dropped items *are* useless unless you upgrade them with CP that involves heavy RNG ??

 

[Grunker]

Soooo, dropped items *are* useless

Are they useless, or do they have to be good? They can't be both.

But yes, the crafting system is complementary to the drops. I have said so repeatedly.

 

[Lacrymas]

Useless = you don't have a reason to use them unless upgraded with CP (that involves heavy RNG in this supposedly deterministic and best crafting system). I still don't know what this system is trying to fix or address.

 

[Tacgnol]

Useless = you don't have a reason to use them unless upgraded with CP (that involves heavy RNG in this supposedly deterministic and best crafting system). I still don't know what this system is trying to fix or address.

The game still has chase legendaries/uniques.

Past that, you hunt for good bases and craft them to your desire. You use the crafting runes/items to significantly reduce the RNG/risk.

It works really well.

 

[Grunker]

Lol, your goalposts aren't even on the field anymore. Items aren't useless - they need to drop with good affixes and rolls. That's why item drops which would be "solved" in most other aRPGs once you get the one you need are never that in Last Epoch. You'll always be excited for a good drop (even a unique you already have). That's what the system accomplishes - keeping item drops relevant long into the endgame. I love PoE, but once I reach endgame, dropping an item I'll actually equip is close to a 0% chance unless it's an ultrarare unique. In Last Epoch I pick up every single relevant drop because it might just have the potential to be a replacement.

 

[Lacrymas]

I was never under the impression that getting a best in slot item for your build was a problem.

 

[Grunker]

I was never under the impression that getting a best in slot item for your build was a problem.

I ended my single playthrough of the game (80 hours) without the specific affix roll I needed on my staff.

The reason I don’t like Last Epoch is that it is essentially a ton of great systems without really any content to play them in. Unless you think PoE’s maps only without a single mechanic is enough. It wasn’t for me

 

[Grunker]

As an aside, like Tacgnol says, the "heavy RNG" thing is a misnomer, at least relatively. I struggle to think of a non-deterministic crafting system that gives you as much control as Last Epoch does. It's also very strategic, and while PoE has attempted to implement strategic crafting with stuff like fossils, you don't need a ph.d. in autism to understand Epoch's strategic crafting. It's much more elegant IMO. Your control over the system is easy to understand while it's still unclear what the best option would be.

 

[Lacrymas]

It just seems to me like a ridiculous solution to an imaginary problem. Is it really much of an issue to get a best in slot item for the vast majority of people? This seems to cater only to streamers who play the game 8 hours a day and will actually find their best items very quickly.

 

[abija]

Problem: crafting decoupled from drops makes either of those required or mostly useless, depending on implementation.
Solution: what they implemented

Random imaginary issue: whatever is in your head

 

[ADL]

Keep in mind RNG will be cut down considerably once we get bazaar/targeted loot from prophecies. Personally I refuse to trade so I'm very excited for circle of fortune (you can still trade among party members if you find an item while they're grouped with you).

https://forum.lastepoch.com/t/trade...ts-guild-and-circle-of-fortune-factions/51994

 

[Lacrymas]

Problem: crafting decoupled from drops makes either of those required or mostly useless, depending on implementation.
Solution: what they implemented

Random imaginary issue: whatever is in your head

No. The actual problem is that crafting exists.

 

[abija]

How exactly is the posibility to alleviate loot rng a problem?

 

[Lacrymas]

There are a lot of other ways to mitigate loot rng that doesn't involve crafting being mandatory. LE already does some of them, like the ability to choose echoes with specific rewards like swords or whatever. Others is to have specific boss loot tables like in an MMO. Crafting could also be used to replace affixes/bonuses as opposed to improving them. Grim Dawn has a crafter that can change set items to either another set or a piece within the same set. On top of that, you could also limit the amount of items in the game to a more manageable amount. It only has 5 classes, not 81 class combinations like in GD, so there shouldn't be a need for a large item pool at endgame.

 

[Grunker]

This is you Lacrymas:

Vendor: "COME HERE, DELICIOUS APPLES WITH CINNAMON!"

Lacrymas: "That does look like a perfect combination of apples and cinnamon. Unfortunately, I absolutely hate cinnamon, so your apples are utter dogshit."

Vendor: "Su... surely they are still good quality apples with luxurious cinnamon combined with great care by a passioned cook to ensure the perfect balance of sweetness and spicyness?"

Lacrymas: "Didn't you hear what I said? I don't like cinnamon so how can your apples not be objectively dogshit?"