Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Let's learn about fighting games and get murdered together.

  • Thread starter Generic-Giant-Spider
  • Start date
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
Thread is back, nice. I bought DNF duel because I wanted to try it out. It's not the worst thing in recent memory, but it has problems that plague a lot of modern fighters. A lot of characters have moves that move them half a screen forward and are really fast. Or are even fullscreen projectiles in some cases. Said moves have zero risk and can lead to 40% off of your hp easily. Neutral thus becomes a frantic mess where you are spamming the same moves over and over and if you stop holding block for a second you might just get hit instantly. Reminds me of DBFZ in a way. Inputs are VERY simplified. Special moves are just special button + direction. Each character can do a shoryuken by just pressing down+special. Jumping is really bad in this game. Not sure if I am right on this, but the unique roll mechanic felt bad and way too risky. Characters also didn't feel all that different gameplay wise.

The game has actual combos though, and some grimy stuff, which I can respect. But the core is just too simplified. I think a lot of modern FGs put way too much effort into creating a game that can play itself. Everything needs to be undersandable upfront and a below average player should be able to flowchart his character in a week of playing. And single buttons do way too much. Devs should focus more into creating a game with solid mechanics first.

I didn't like it very much at all. I'll never understand why they didn't even put air dashing in that game when it would have made a huge difference in enjoyment considering how shit mobility is. Also thought it simply stopped becoming fun to play once you begin to hit Diamond/Terranite and you're seeing the same few characters being played the exact same way and these are some obnoxious playstyles too. Striker putting you in forever blockstrings, Crusader able to get the easiest infinite I've ever seen, Hitman having X-Factor, Swift Master playing a different game entirely, etc. Having to work my balls off with Inquisitor only to get two touched by a Grappler was fun too.

The simplified specials making your character operate off some goofy cooldown/magic bar system felt awkward as well. Flashy game but little substance.

They fixed the Crusader infinite and a few other stuff in a patch earlier this month, but yea, forever blockstrings is about right. Striker has a true blockstring that does 100% guard crush and leads to a 70% combo, if you don't have 100 mana to guard cancel (AND a cancel that doesn't suck ass, which is true for half the cast) you're basically dead. It's just an incredibly dumb game.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
Anyway, not to derail the thread too much - fighting games are one of the last bastions of skill in games, and it's always been a hard road. It's not a popular opinion, but actually think it's much harder for beginners now than back during the arcade days (despite the contrary often being thrown out as fact by people who weren't even alive back then), because there's no cost associated with rematching and information is just everywhere. This means that newcomers will frequently face optimal combos and setups the first day they play a new game, and get obliterated. This was never the case in arcades, because everyone was subjected to more or less the same learning curve (of course there's always been individual talent and other factors, but still). You couldn't just grind out hundreds of online ranked matches or spend 20 hours in training mode doing setups in a new fighting game, you just had to put up your token, do your best, and there was a real cost to losing - both in monetary terms and timewise. If the game was popular, you had to go back to the end of a huge line. These incentives cannot be replicated in modern games, and I think they were a crucial part of the experience. Part of what made me stop playing FGs entirely for many years.

Don't forget back then arcades were hardware wise far ahead of consoles up until the Dreamcast released (or Neo-Geo if you were rich, possibly Saturn for 2D fighters but that was a dead system in NA) so even home ports were inferior and only good for practice to a certain point. Playing Marvel Super Heroes on PS1 with slowdown and missing animations was drastically different from playing it in arcades which suffered none of those pitfalls.

And yes, in the heyday of arcades it was a real shark tank. People wouldn't even tell you how to do fatalities in an MK or intentionally feed you bad information, most times you had to hope you made friends with someone that was really good or rely on game magazines for even the most basic shit. This even helped influence what sort of characters I'd tend to gravitate to which were usually ones that had really strong neutral/good normal buttons to press so at least I could try and bully back. My philosophy as a kid was if the character was tall or had long limbs they were probably "beginner friendly" since their basic attacks will cover more of the screen, lolz.
Yeah exactly, this is what I meant when I said you couldn't just spend 20 hours in the lab, etc. It just wasn't possible. Even the quickest arcade ports (like Alpha 3) still took a minimum of 6 months to get home. Plus, consoles were expensive as fuck in my country, very few people had current consoles at the time. The Dreamcast changed all that, as you said, but by then arcades were already halfway dead.

I was able to cheat a little because I owned an MVS cabinet and back then cartridges didn't cost a fortune, so I played every SNK FG that interested me from SamSho 2 onwards at home in arcade perfect form. But that's an extreme exception.

The point is, there was a real cost to losing. This cost will never be replicated, and I think it was an essential part of what makes FGs cool. If you won, you were taking other people's lunch money, sometimes in a very real, literal sense (this is more true if you lived in a poor country), and making them take the walk of shame back to the end of the line. Nothing else can ever replicate that feeling.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
There was also RULES that if broken would see physical confrontation become a reality.

If you throw in SF2 more than two times you might be going to the emergency room.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
Yeah, that was more true for an earlier time (vanilla SF2/CE/MK1) though, every arcade had their own local rules.

People were legit shot in the face in my city for pulling off a fatality in MK1 in the wrong neighbourhood hahaha

By the mid-late 90s, people (at least here) had already resigned to the fact that if you complain you're a little bitch. People got actively made fun of by pretty much all other players if they complained after losing, it was glorious. It was a sort of self-correcting environment, which was much healthier than today's bitchmade atmosphere where everyone complains about everything all the time. I mean, you had to contend with people picking ST Akuma, KoF 97 Orochi Iori, Garou bosses, etc. There were no fucking patches every other week. You'd be lucky to ever see a revision of a popular fighting game. So people just dealt with it.
 

DJOGamer PT

Arcane
Joined
Apr 8, 2015
Messages
8,108
Location
Lusitânia
Yes, it's also the same reason why competitive FPS shifted from stuff like Quake 3 Arena, which was focused on individual skill, powerup and time management, and intimate spacial awareness across multiple, sprawling levels, to team-based pap like CS and more modern crap like Valorant, where the burden for winning/losing is diluted across the entire team and losers will always find ways to deflect blame onto other people, and it's actually possible to win by being a bad player in a better team.
CS and it's imitators actually have fairly high skill ceilling
The only times an individual player can coast along due to his teammates, are in casual matches or the low ends of ranked matches
On the upper echelons of ranked and competitions not only no one tolerates weak links, it's also quite impossible to reach them whithout being fairly competent - teams are super selective and higher rankings have tight requeriments
In fact, competitive teams place huge pressure and demands on individual players and those enviroments are far more cutthroat than any competions of non-team based games - understanble when you consider the size and prizes of those tournaments
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,635
The player retention problem is not exactly something that you can just easily fix and I have high doubts going F2P will solve anything and instead only make companies become shameless in their monetization. They did try F2P years ago with Tekken Revolution and KI, both of which didn't catch on with TR being shutdown completely and KI being dead. All F2P is going to do is give a company like Capcom that has had a history of shitty business practices to continue exploring those shitty business practices under a new guise.

As for player retention, the truth is this: the modern day gamer is a bitch. That's all there is to it. You can make one button specials, one button supers, F2P, tutorials that go into every painstaking detail, rollback netcode, rank based matchmaking, etc. and it won't matter because the modern day gamer fears failure and in a one-on-one fighting game which requires you to be the one to solve the problem your opponent presents it just doesn't work out for most out there these days. There's no team to fall back on or get carried by, there's only you. And when you are new to a fighting game and you're facing veterans, you're not only going to know it but you're going to feel it's insurmountable to ever get to that level.

Fighting games and RTS' in particular are brutal when it comes to the new player experience. It's why the best time to learn any fighting game is always going to be in the first two weeks of a fresh launch since you will at least have people either on a much more level playing field or have other new players to bounce off of.

But it's not something you can just enforce or make people do, they have to want to do it themselves and come to terms they're likely going to get fucked hard on the way to becoming proficient or decent enough to eventually present a realistic challenge to better players. Single player doesn't funnel them to online, F2P will at best result in a curiosity trip for an evening and then an uninstall the next day, making the inputs braindead easy just makes a good player no longer have to worry about execution and blow these new players up even quicker.

Reason why a game like Smash or this Multiversus thing are thriving is because of the huge brand recognition and that those party-brawler or whatever you want to call them games in particular are so easy to pick up and play it's feasible that a novice could steal rounds or entire sets off a more experienced player. Now imagine a novice in KOF XV or Tekken 7 trying to get victories over a veteran of the series, it's like they're playing two completely different games and crossed over into one another's world by accident.

It's even why battle royale games are so popular. The idea that "anyone can win, they just need to be at the right place at the right time" makes people feel they have a chance to win regardless. Fighting games don't have that because to win in them you need to actually learn and practice and most players out there don't find the idea of studying frame data and standing in training mode practicing counters or combos or set ups for hours to be worth the time investment for a rush they could easily get elsewhere with far less hassle.

If you really want player retention, make crossplay the standard going forward.

Killer Instinct didn't really try free-to-play. It was more like some pseudo free-to-play. More like a one character demo. It was also locked on a system for basically it's whole lifespan that Don Mattrick killed before it even launched; not only did he kill the system, but he killed the fighting game genre having a place on that system when he (or someone at Microsoft) basically told Capcom to fuck off with Street Fighter 5. When they lost Street Fighter, they lost that fighting game audience that would've probably nought other fighting games too. And when they lost their top spot from the 360 era they lost any reason for smaller Japanese fighting games to even think about the Xbox One as a platform.

Tekken Revolution isn't really the best example either because it was just a F2P variant of Tekken Tag Tournament 2 from the year before, and it was locked to the PS3. Being locked to the PS3 ain't exactly as bad as being locked to the Xbox One, but if you're an online game during that time the 360 is probably where you wanted to be. It was however downloaded 2 million times within its first two months.

Brand recognition doesn't matter half as much as people think. It helps. Sure, it helps, it's going to get more eyes on some thing than nothing at all. But it doesn't really fucking matter. The biggest, most profitable fighting game of all time is still Street Fighter 2 because of all the money it was racking in during the arcade days. Street Fighter as a franchise is still one of the most profitable video game series of all time because of those first three (I think it's the first three) versions of Street Fighter 2. Now did Street Fighter 2 have brand recognition when it came out? Fuck no. I know it's call Street Fighter 2, but nobody knew what the fuck Street Fighter was when Street Fighter 2 came out...which was probably for the best. Many of the most profitable games had no brand recognition before they got big. Fortnite didn't get big off the back of some brand people knew, it got big because it was free. Dungeon Fighter Online didn't didn't the most profitable game because of a known brand, it did so by being free. Even some known brand like Call of Duty didn't become the juggernaut it did until it revamped its whole brand with Modern Warfare four years and main games into the series.

The bit about KOF XV also being too hard in comparison to Smash is fucking stupid too, and here's why: Street Fighter 2. Like I said, the Street Fighter 2 series is the most profitable fighting game franchise. It's the most profitable by a wide margin. It became the most profitable by having such a low buy in cost, and by just being really fucking cool at the time. People might not exactly be jumping to spend fifty or sixty bucks on whatever new fighting game, but they sure as shit were willing to throw a quarter away to fuck around on an arcade machine for a bit. The free-to-play mode means your buy in is nothing. You just need to get people to want to download it to try the thing out. Now, would simple move executions like Smash, Buriki One, DNF Duel, and the upcoming Street Fighter 6 keep (or get) more players in? Sure. But if it's free you're going to get people regardless. And if your matchmaking isnt throwing people that are shit into fights with players that are just raping them all the time you're probably going to keeping them; although that could happen in the arcade days too, and it didn't stop enough people from playing to hurt anything.

Cross play is probably on the lower in of the totem pole of what's going to keep people playing. It'll help, because it means you're going to have a larger pool to pull players from, which means matchmaking will go faster. It's also maybe going to mean the player can jump between this or that thing to play the game. But I'd put good net code above cross play. Most people probably aren't saying, "I'm gonna get this for the netcode" it's just not something I think most people think of, but, and especially if your a F2P game, if the game doesn't feel good to play because it's too laggy or something, people are just going to fuck off to something else. Simple controls would probably help more too. I used to play tons of fighting game, and I've got friends who played fighting games, and friends that didn't really play fighting game, and something all the friends that didn't really play fighting games had in common is they had a harder time doing shit. It's probably no surprise that Capcom's flasher Marvel games, which did away with double motions for Hypers, and let you do Hyper moves by just pressing two buttons, were their better selling fighting games post-Street Fighter 2.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
I'd bet that something all your friends that didn't really play fighting games all had in common is that they didn't want to put in enough time to learn the games. Having a "harder time doing shit" isn't a measure of anything, especially in such a competitive type of game. I'd bet that even playing games with one-button moves and specials they'd still bitch out after losing a few rounds. No matter how much you hollow these games and take shit out, bitches will always get filtered because they're exactly that - bitches. Fighting games require a particular mindset and a willingness to take a beating for a long time to get better. It's okay for some people not to have that mindset - but just like game journalists bitching about easymode in From games, they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to be part of the "cool crowd" without putting in the time - i.e. all payoff and no sacrifice. I'd very much doubt that someone like that would keep playing a game like XvSF after getting 100-0'd by Wolverine in one touch or eating a Magneto infinite 5x in a row, regardless of the game not having a double qcf motion for supers.

All this endless rationalization is pointless. The fundamental problems with player mentality will always exist, some players will always be better than others, and some people will never tolerate losing. No amount of change to the games themselves will ever get around these basic facts. In the end, people who advocate for fighting games to become something else never really wanted to play fighting games to begin with.

Why is it that these same people who talk about "accessibility" never talk about more in-depth training modes and better tutorials (which is a very valid point and I think there's great potential for improvements in these areas, with real-world situations being incorporated in training routines, advanced concepts being explained transparently, etc - for a good example see PS2 VF4 Evolution's training mode.)? Because they're bitches who don't want to put in the time. They'll spend pages talking about extraneous shit like story modes, simplified gameplay, etc. because they're just looking for excuses not to put in the time. It's that simple.

This debate will always go back to the simple fact that not every game or type of game should be designed for everyone. Fuck this "everyone should have fun" crap.

Also, you're dead wrong about brand recognition not mattering much. Not only does brand recognition matter, character recognition also matters a lot in FGs. Do you think having no X-men in MVCI was a small factor regarding why it flopped? Why do you think SF3 flopped as hard as it did back in the day? Don't let anyone tell you it didn't, especially not hipster zoomers who first played 3S in 2015. Everyone hated SF3 when it came out. Everyone. There's a reason SF6 will have all 8 classic WWs on release. This shit about "character archetypes" being all that matters is a massive cope by idiots who don't know what they're talking about.

Regarding your analogy between low cost of buy-in to put in a quarter in SF2 and download a F2P game, it's really a stretch, especially if you want to make a point about player retention. People who put in a casual quarter in SF2 and got destroyed wouldn't put in another quarter, regardless of how cheap that sounds, if they didn't have the right mentality. It was a very frequent thing during the arcade era, people who would just watch and not play. People who would wait for the versus action to die out so that they could put in their quarter and play against the computer like a little bitch. People like that were made fun of, relentlessly. A game being free to play doesn't address the fundamental problem of mentality. It's been said many times before, but in a traditional FG, there's no one else to blame if you lose but yourself - and most people can't really handle that. These people would still get destroyed in F2P anything and would not want to play. So what if they didn't spend money to try it? Who really benefits from that? Not the game or the players who want to keep playing it, certainly.

My point is that there's always going to be something else to complain about. As long as they're not winning, bitches will complain if they have to learn motions to pull off moves. If they are given one button specials, they'll complain about throws. If you take out throws, they'll complain about jumping. If you take out jumping, they'll complain about normals having different properties. So on, and so forth.
 
Last edited:

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Cross play is probably on the lower in of the totem pole of what's going to keep people playing. It'll help, because it means you're going to have a larger pool to pull players from, which means matchmaking will go faster.

And this is all I care about when playing any competitive game as does just about anybody else. The worry about player retention begins to disappear when you are pulling from an ocean rather than a pond.

God fuck no to more of a focus on simplified controls. Get that shit out of here.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest


This is a pretty good video that tackles a lot of why I also didn't like MK11 and why MK9 is the last great MK title.
 

Max Damage

Savant
Joined
Mar 1, 2017
Messages
748
Depends on what's old for you. Skullgirls is easy to start with if you focus on playing solo or duo, the combos are fairly intuitive, and there's lots of creative stuff to discover when learning resets and burst baits. I've been playing it since 2014, if you hop in during a sale, there's good chance you'll meet new players, there're also beginner tournaments hosted fairly often if you stick around.
 

Matador

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
1,692
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Depends on what's old for you. Skullgirls is easy to start with if you focus on playing solo or duo, the combos are fairly intuitive, and there's lots of creative stuff to discover when learning resets and burst baits. I've been playing it since 2014, if you hop in during a sale, there's good chance you'll meet new players, there're also beginner tournaments hosted fairly often if you stick around.
The only problem I have with skullgirls is the fact that it has a female roster. I usually like to play male characters and have more men in the roster than women.
 
Last edited:

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
Patron
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
29,878
Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Depends on what's old for you. Skullgirls is easy to start with if you focus on playing solo or duo, the combos are fairly intuitive, and there's lots of creative stuff to discover when learning resets and burst baits. I've been playing it since 2014, if you hop in during a sale, there's good chance you'll meet new players, there're also beginner tournaments hosted fairly often if you stick around.
The only problem I have with skullgirls is the fact that it has a female roster. I usually like to play male characters and have more men in the roster than women.
Think there are some dudes in dlc?
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
If you throw in SF2 more than two times you might be going to the emergency room.
Ah yes, the ultimate proof of skill. "Don't beat me or I'll attack you in real life".

Sounds like you played with a bunch of serious bitches.
Although I'm sure that was a little tongue-in-cheek, that's really how things were in real life back during the arcade era, depending on your location. The story I shared about someone getting shot because of a MK1 fatality near where I lived is true.

Back in the very early days when people didn't really know how to deal with things and everything was super new, a lot of arcades had custom rules. Throws were (very) frowned upon in SF2 WW/CE depending on your location.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
If your opponent played Guile in WW and used the handcuff/invisible throw glitch you had a God given right to headbutt them as hard as you could.
 
Joined
Aug 10, 2012
Messages
5,904
Great Deceiver Assisted Living Godzilla Generic-Giant-Spider and the other experts in this thread. What would be your top 5 old or not so old prestigious games worth labbing and trying to have some casual fun? (don´t include GGXXACPR, I dedicated a lot of time in the pandemic and want new things)
Alpha 3 for sure. It's a very fun game with a diverse cast of characters, especially if you're not a super sperg and can move past V-ism.

CvS2 is also fun, even with gamebreaking shit like roll cancel.

Third Strike is an easy option, it's popular and there's always hundreds of people playing. However, it's a very tier-oriented game and tought to break into now.

My personal favourite fighting game of all time is VF4: Final Tuned. It was an arcade-only release and it's on fightcade now (rollback). However, it probably won't be easy finding someone to play against as VF is cursed.
 

Generic-Giant-Spider

Guest
Matador I honestly always found it fun to hit buttons in Soul Calibur games, pretty much any of them. SC2/SC3 in particular have really fun offline modes as well.

CvS2 is always a good choice if you're a systems/mechanics geek since all the grooves have a bunch of stuff to mess with. I always liked using K-Groove because of the massive damage boost and Just Defend which if you became good at doing could put you into the rage mode almost constantly. Plus the roster is massive.

Real Bout Fatal Fury 2 is imo severely underrated. Beautiful animations and spritework, fun and weighty gameplay, there are still lanes on some stages but they're mostly gone if you disliked that aspect in previous FF games and no ring-outs either (personally I enjoyed the ring-outs). Also has nearly every FF character so that means Chadgang Krauser.

I'll always say KOF 98 or 2002 if you've never played, probably 98 more-so but I'm biased as it's the one I played the most as a yung thug.

I actually really like MKX as well when it comes to fucking around and seeing what you can do. The three variations are done much better in this game than in MK11 and they give some interesting options to characters they may not have had otherwise. Unsure of the playerbase activity but I do remember a brief resurgence in it when MK11 disappointed a lot of people.

Also as Max Damage said, Skullgirls is actually a surprisingly fun game with crazy combo potential if you like that sort of thing. I also wasn't too big into the really small roster but there's some cool designs like the ninja nurse and nun that turns into Lovecraft's rape fantasy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Nathir

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 3, 2017
Messages
1,203
Joined
Nov 23, 2017
Messages
4,635
Cross play is probably on the lower in of the totem pole of what's going to keep people playing. It'll help, because it means you're going to have a larger pool to pull players from, which means matchmaking will go faster.

And this is all I care about when playing any competitive game as does just about anybody else. The worry about player retention begins to disappear when you are pulling from an ocean rather than a pond.

God fuck no to more of a focus on simplified controls. Get that shit out of here.

It'll help, but the other things will all help more. Just being F2P would draw more player, and if you're sufficiently big you're not going to have any problem finding matches even without cross play. I mean it's not like you needed cross play to find matches in a second in Halo 3 or whatever non-cross play CoD game. If you're playing on something where at basically any point in time there's a triple digit amount of players playing you're going to be ok without cross play. On consoles F2P also opens up online to more people. If a game isn't F2P on a console that means whoever buys said game has to have Xbox Live or whatever the PlayStation one is called, so even if said game sold alright there's always going to be a certain percentage of that user base that just won't be playing it online. If it is F2P however, everyone that has it can play online.

As an example of how much more F2P would help. I'm looking at MultiVersus player count right now, and even at this time, it's at 54,147 players on Steam. Street Fighter 5's all time peak on Steam was 13,807, Tekken 7's was 18,766, MK11's was 27,301. Now I wouldn't actually be too surprised if just on Steam alone the F2P MultiVersus has a bigger player pool than at least SF5 and Tekken 7 across everything at the moment.

Simplified controls are the future. They'll bring more people in and there's not really a downside to them. It's almost surprising they're just now kind of coming into play in 2D fighting game, and it took until SF6 for Capcom to really try their hand at them, since Capcom did toy with the idea in a very half-assed shitty way with Capcom vs SNK 2 Easy Operation...which was 20 years ago now. I'm almost surprised Marvel vs Capcom 3 didn't have it back in 2011, (especially on the heels of BlazBlue in 2008) would've been a better way to go than having that Air Combo Button for launching off the ground and air tags. I'm especially surprised Mortal Kombat hasn't done it given they've always been about keeping things simple; although I'm kind of expecting them in whatever NetherRealm has coming next.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom