Let's learn about fighting games and get murdered together.

[Matador]

Why the fuck are these people still wearing masks?!

Trannies and demon spawns are in control of FGC.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

The point with me bring up Street Fighter 2 was, that of all the games in the series, it's the most simplistic, and it's also by for the most successful.

Okay, you clearly don't understand that if we put ourselves in the timeframe of 1991, SF2 coming out didn't seem so simplistic and for its era wasn't simplistic. Is it simplistic by today's standards? Nobody would dispute that. But back in the early '90s an arcade game of SF2's magnitude was an extreme step-up from any fighting game that came before it. The whole thing became so big it blew up huge and started a whole phenomenon. Going by your ultra retarded belief of, "the simpler it is, the more successful it is" then that means Street Fighter 1 should be the biggest thing out there. It wasn't then, it sure isn't now.

But by today's standards, SFV -is- a simplistic entry into the series and it most definitely doesn't have the same depth that SF4 did (you're making the V System out to be this amazingly complex thing when it isn't anything like that) and that is why it is not seen in a favorable light. It's simplistic due to how linear its design is across the whole game. There's no player expression because you're expected to play every character a certain way or else you're doing it wrong. SF4 by comparison had much more diversity in how you could approach a match and sadly, the less diversity your gameplay has in a fighting game to mix things up to throw your opponent off = your character becomes one track = you begin to feel tier power disparity more than ever. SFV thought by making things easier to grasp it would be pulling in more casual players when all it did was leave an ugly black stain on the mainline series.

Jesus fucking Christ. My point was that the biggest Street Fighter game to date is also the most simple one for anyone to jump into. As the series went on, and got more complex with its systems, the series fell out of favor with the (extremely large) general audience it once had. Now there's other things that could be said to contribute to that decline with audiences, but it'd be stupid to think the growing complexity of the series wasn't a factor at all. So, this idea that audiences will reject something being simple out of hand is a dumb fucking idea. When you're also trying to use MK11 to make that point, which outsold MKX, it becomes an even dumber fucking point.

Lack of depth and being simplistic are not the same thing. Amazingly complex isn't how I'd describe the V System, more like: Needlessly convoluted. Street Fighter 4, which is a deeper game than SF5, is also more simplistic than 5. Street Fighter 4's systems are less convoluted, they're easier for anyone jumping into the game for the first time to pick up than the V System of 5. I'd also say Street Fighter 3 is a more simplistic game than Street Fighter 4, but is also a much deeper game that's harder to master. I mean, pressing forward to parry in SF3 is not hard to do, it's easy to understand, it's a universal system that works the same way across all characters, it's even pretty easy to parry one or two hits; but it is hard to master.

Why would it have to change its combo structure? You could have simple controls in a KoF game and still keep the four attack button layout of a KoF games, it wouldn't have to erase that 28 years of knowledge of King of Fighters that I doubt you have anyways. Controllers have more than four buttons, arcade sticks have more than four buttons, your fucking keyboard definitely has more than four buttons; you could still have the normal traditional four normal attacks of a KoF, and combats that use those four normal attack buttons, and still do some kind of simplified move input system. I found it pretty funny when you were bitching about this in the Street Fighter 6 thread and then brought up KoF; I mean, I love KoF, but it's got two less normals than Street Fighter, which could be said to be part of the kind of simplification you're railing against. You can also have the simple controls and the normal controls at the exact same time.

Can you imagine a guy saying he loves KOF, advocate this hard for simplified controls, and doesn't realize that even if you used all eight buttons on a controller you'd still end up with a layout that realistically only leaves one button free. All the controller face buttons = A, B, C, D. All four shoulder buttons = C + D, A + B, Meter/Max Mode activation mechanic, one possibly free button.

So what is this button going to do, act as a modifier for easy specials? What about SDMs or climaxes? How do you cancel from super to super? What happens to EX moves? What if a character has multiple command grabs, how does it know which one to use? How are you going to even balance 1 frame command grabs being spammable? What about other easily abused moves that will come to light once you see them able to be spammed endlessly? How about charge characters like Heidern or Leona? How do you even simplify a character like Angel?

And then, my favorite part is that while you're likely thinking of all the ways you can address these problems and make it so a lazy new player can have fun too they still won't be able to do something core to the KOF experience like short hops/knowing how to use mobility to their advantage. They'll still get blown up. All while you dumbed the game down for everyone else that is playing this Rainbow Edition fucktarded mess.

EX moves are not a core component of King of Fighting. They were only introduced in KoF13, which doesn't even really feel like a normal King of Fighting game. But, guess what, you can still do EX moves with simple controls, and you can still do Desperation Moves. Imagine being a guy that says he loves KoF, and he thinks Max Mode needs a whole button of its own. Did you ever play KoF in the arcades where you only have the four buttons of an SNK cabinet to do shit?

You are aware Street Fighter 6 is a thing that's being made, right; that it has simple controls, that it has EX moves, that Guile's charge moves still need to charge even in the simple control, and that you can still have normal move execution while also having simple controls? Like Ryu in Smash still has all his normal Street Fighter inputs for moves on top of the normal Smash controls. Hey, did you know SNK did simple controls before Smash?

Who the fuck gives a shit if they still get blown away by people that know what they're doing? Are you so fucking stupid that you think that's a point in your favor? Before your dumb fucking dipshit point was that it'd be unfair to players that put in the time to learn, now you're saying the opposite thing, that it wouldn't even matter because said new players will just get blown out by a group of players they'll probably rarely have matches with if they suck as much as you're saying anyways.

How the fuck does someone bring up command grabs being simplified with regard to KoF as a negative? The series has more simplified command grab motions than Street Fighter; KoF is doing a simplified version of the traditional command grab. There are no 360 or 720 motions in the KoF games. Normally SNK doesn't do the more complex 360 motions for command grabs, and I think like the only characters that have had them in SNK games since the early '90s are characters in crossover games that weren't created by SNK. SNK also has done Big Bear's command grabs as button plus direction before, which is exactly like the kind of simpler controls you're bitching about.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Jesus fucking Christ. My point was that the biggest Street Fighter game to date is also the most simple one for anyone to jump into. As the series went on, and got more complex with its systems, the series fell out of favor with the (extremely large) general audience it once had.

What even is this aggressively dumb take? Third Strike is beloved and SF4 caused a whole 2D fighting game resurgence. SF2 hit it big not because it was simplistic because in 1991 all of the games that came before it were simple as shit. SF2 took it to an entirely new level of what was possible in a fighting game and it captivated people. I don't know if you're aware of this but people that want an easy-to-jump-into fighting game aren't choosing SF2. It sold well because it was a literal trailblazer for the whole genre. Stop being a goof.

When you're also trying to use MK11 to make that point, which outsold MKX, it becomes an even dumber fucking point.

Hey guy I don't know if you're aware of this but you can buy a game and think it sucks. Buying a game doesn't mean you're obligated to think it's the best thing yet. Stop being a goof.

Street Fighter 4, which is a deeper game than SF5, is also more simplistic than 5.

Oh wow, another dumb take.

Execution is easy, enormous buffer windows/less strict timing, sacrificing defense for gorilla offense, the complete elimination of 1 frame links, Ono himself stating he wanted to make SFV a lot more accessible/beginner friendly and in doing so created a very boring and very lame SF game.

Like maybe Menat is the only character where you can point and go, "wow that was cool." Every other character you see them played once and you've seen them played period. Everything in SFV was not only designed to be simplistic but in doing so sacrificed the depth.

Who the fuck gives a shit if they still get blown away by people that know what they're doing? Are you so fucking stupid that you think that's a point in your favor? Before your dumb fucking dipshit point was that it'd be unfair to players that put in the time to learn, now you're saying the opposite thing, that it wouldn't even matter because said new players will just get blown out by a group of players they'll probably rarely have matches with if they suck as much as you're saying anyways.

Because you moron the execution is what helps make things impressive when you see it happen. If somebody lands a hard as balls optimal combo with tight windows it becomes impressive and tells you that guy knows his way around the character in addition to other factors such as match-up knowledge, optimal punishes, spacing, etc.

And I don't even think you understand what your whole point is anymore. Why do you rally so hard for simplified controls? It's because you honestly think your friend, if he had the execution required, could have beaten somebody better than him if that move came out, right? What you don't grasp about fighting games is that the execution is a big part of what separates people. Your friend getting shit on isn't due to an error in game design or archaic mindset, it's because that's how you strive to get better. The hope is that your friend gets crunched so hard he becomes determined to succeed and does that by practicing and playing more until it becomes natural to him.

If by your own admission simplified controls would see him still get annihilated by better players then guess what? Your whole experiment failed miserably but for the people that stick to the game and probably long-time fans of the series in general, they're stuck with this retard abomination you've made.

Assisted Living Godzilla, get this through your misshapen trephinated head: the results of getting better is what makes competitive things fun. For fighting games, mastering your execution is a big part of this. And I'm not even saying this as someone with the cleanest execution out there because I drop and fuck up tons of stuff, but landing it and causing a huge comeback or making a big read that pays off is why playing fighting games is inherently exciting to me. Your eventual future of everybody using macro scripts strips that fun away.

If people were doing these motions and mastering these timings in some random convenience store with a worn out stick and mushy buttons in the '90s there is no excuse why you or your friend can't do the same in 2022 when every game has eased up tremendously on the windows.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Jesus fucking Christ. My point was that the biggest Street Fighter game to date is also the most simple one for anyone to jump into. As the series went on, and got more complex with its systems, the series fell out of favor with the (extremely large) general audience it once had.

What even is this aggressively dumb take? Third Strike is beloved and SF4 caused a whole 2D fighting game resurgence. SF2 hit it big not because it was simplistic because in 1991 all of the games that came before it were simple as shit. SF2 took it to an entirely new level of what was possible in a fighting game and it captivated people. I don't know if you're aware of this but people that want an easy-to-jump-into fighting game aren't choosing SF2. It sold well because it was a literal trailblazer for the whole genre. Stop being a goof.

Let me put this simply. Street Fighter 2 was big. Street Fighter 2 was also a pretty simple game to just pick up and play. After Street Fighter 2 Capcom made more Street Fighter games that couldn't hold on to that audience Street Fighter 2 had. These later Street Fighter games grew more and more complex, and had more and more systems on top of what Street Fighter 2 had done and they ended up losing the massive audience they once had. Capcom's Marvel related games, which in contrast had simpler move inputs and were much flashier, ended up outperforming their later Street Fighter games in the arcades.

Third Strike is beloved...by a tiny group of people. The Street Fighter 3 games, as beloved as Third Strike is, also sold for fucking shit. Third Strike is a video game masterpiece, but almost nobody played the fucking thing either. It was a huge flop for them. Street Fighter 2 was one of the most profitable bunch of video games of all time. The Street Fighter 3 games however barely broke even.

Street Fighter 4 didn't cause a 2D fighting game resurgence. It was just Capcom's return to 2D fighting games after kind of fucking off five years. At most it was maybe the reason Mortal Kombat went back to 2D after Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe. It's not like the 2D fighting game that came out around the same time as SF4 were some kind of response to SF4. KoF12 was already in the works, and Arc System Works was chugging along throughout the 2000s during Capcom's absence. Apart from Street Fighter 4 Capcom's return would've happened anyways, as they'd already made a deal with Marvel for MvC3 before SF4 even came out, Tatsunoko vs Capcom (which came out later that same year as SF4) was a test for MvC3 stuff.

When you're also trying to use MK11 to make that point, which outsold MKX, it becomes an even dumber fucking point.

Hey guy I don't know if you're aware of this but you can buy a game and think it sucks. Buying a game doesn't mean you're obligated to think it's the best thing yet. Stop being a goof.

And? What's your point? Some people complained. So fucking what. People complained but it didn't fucking matter because MK11 outsold MKX. Your point, if you've forgotten, is that going simpler is always bad because of the reception it receives...this was in regard to me saying it'd bring more people in. Well, guess what, more people actually bought MK11 than MKX.

Street Fighter 4, which is a deeper game than SF5, is also more simplistic than 5.

Oh wow, another dumb take.

Execution is easy, enormous buffer windows/less strict timing, sacrificing defense for gorilla offense, the complete elimination of 1 frame links, Ono himself stating he wanted to make SFV a lot more accessible/beginner friendly and in doing so created a very boring and very lame SF game.

Like maybe Menat is the only character where you can point and go, "wow that was cool." Every other character you see them played once and you've seen them played period. Everything in SFV was not only designed to be simplistic but in doing so sacrificed the depth.

Street Fighter 4 has shortcuts for executions too. That wasn't some new thing SF5 added.

Street Fighter 4 is a simpler game than Steet Fighter 5 to understand at a glance. One frame links don't change that. The Focus system is far more first time player friendly than the V system stuff despite the intention behind it. In SF4 it's a universal system that does the same thing across every character, you know what it does for one character you know what it does for everyone. That's not how the V stuff in SF5 works, despite the idea behind it, everyone does different things with it, so you're going to have to fuck around with the game to find out what it does with everyone.

Who the fuck gives a shit if they still get blown away by people that know what they're doing? Are you so fucking stupid that you think that's a point in your favor? Before your dumb fucking dipshit point was that it'd be unfair to players that put in the time to learn, now you're saying the opposite thing, that it wouldn't even matter because said new players will just get blown out by a group of players they'll probably rarely have matches with if they suck as much as you're saying anyways.

Because you moron the execution is what helps make things impressive when you see it happen. If somebody lands a hard as balls optimal combo with tight windows it becomes impressive and tells you that guy knows his way around the character in addition to other factors such as match-up knowledge, optimal punishes, spacing, etc.

And I don't even think you understand what your whole point is anymore. Why do you rally so hard for simplified controls? It's because you honestly think your friend, if he had the execution required, could have beaten somebody better than him if that move came out, right? What you don't grasp about fighting games is that the execution is a big part of what separates people. Your friend getting shit on isn't due to an error in game design or archaic mindset, it's because that's how you strive to get better. The hope is that your friend gets crunched so hard he becomes determined to succeed and does that by practicing and playing more until it becomes natural to him.

If by your own admission simplified controls would see him still get annihilated by better players then guess what? Your whole experiment failed miserably but for the people that stick to the game and probably long-time fans of the series in general, they're stuck with this retard abomination you've made.

Assisted Living Godzilla, get this through your misshapen trephinated head: the results of getting better is what makes competitive things fun. For fighting games, mastering your execution is a big part of this. And I'm not even saying this as someone with the cleanest execution out there because I drop and fuck up tons of stuff, but landing it and causing a huge comeback or making a big read that pays off is why playing fighting games is inherently exciting to me. Your eventual future of everybody using macro scripts strips that fun away.

If people were doing these motions and mastering these timings in some random convenience store with a worn out stick and mushy buttons in the '90s there is no excuse why you or your friend can't do the same in 2022 when every game has eased up tremendously on the windows.

Everything you've said here is fucking stupid, and your first point doesn't even have jack shit to do with what was being talking about. Simple move inputs don't have anything to do with combo timing. They aren't the same fucking thing. Maybe if I was also talking about combo timing that tangent would have some relevance instead of being apropos of nothing.

Do you ever interact with other people in the real world and actually talk to them? People like fucking around on fighting games. Not many people are all that good at it. And lots of people couldn't give a shit about putting in the time like its some fucking job. Simple controls will get more people into fighting game, because it'll let more people actually do things, and do that shit consistently. Do you want to play a fighting game where you can easily find matches online? Do you want to play a fighting games that's successful enough to get support and have future fighting games be made? Well, simple move inputs will probably help that. When you look at Smash Bros sales in comparison to all other fighting games I think this pretty clearly bears out. It's probably not some fluke that Smash Bros Ultimate sold more than double the second biggest retail fighting game, Mortal Kombat 11, which itself has sold almost double Street Fighter 5. You could say it's because of the characters, but it ain't like Smash Bros. is the only fighting game with huge popular characters in it. Capcom's Marvel games, NRS's DC games, that Dragon Ball FighterZ game, none of them are even hitting MK11 numbers despite having enormous franchises attached to them.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Street Fighter 2 was also a pretty simple game to just pick up and play.

Maybe somebody else can explain to this dipshit why SF2 in the year of our Lord 1991 wasn't treated as a simplistic game when every game before it was stuff like Karate Champ or Urban Champion. It didn't become successful because it was simplistic, it was successful because of the factors of graphical quality, sound, unique characters and playstyles, and the general sentiment that it took fighters to a never before seen level and became a blueprint for many to follow in its wake. It's like you know you're wrong but you're trying desperately to find a way to look right which in turn only makes you look really dumb.

Capcom's Marvel related games, which in contrast had simpler move inputs and were much flashier, ended up outperforming their later Street Fighter games in the arcades.

God, the retardation continues and mutates. Idiot, Capcom's Marvel games were popular because get this: you're a kid or teenager in the '90s. You like video games, you like comic books, every day you'll play Street Fighter II: Special Champion Edition with your friends after school then watch X-Men the cartoon when they leave. You go into an arcade, you see this game called "X-Men vs. Street Fighter", you see Cyclops and Ryu shaking hands, you feel an erection of excitement come over you. It was a cross-over that while seemingly completely random, was amazing as it took two extremely well known IPs and smashed them together. This is why brand recognition is important. Not one single fucker that dropped coins in that machine did so because "wow I don't need to worry about inputs too much." They did it because they wanted to see Wolverine beat the shit out of M. Bison in an extremely over the top fashion.

And I don't even know why you keep retreating to these Capcom Vs. games when they had their very own skill ceiling to separate the good from the bad and in some cases were even more difficult to play depending on characters you selected. Have you ever actually touched these games or do you just look up a command list and think because supers require one less motion on occasion it must mean it's super easy to pick up and play? Because I can tell you through personal experience you won't be picking up Ws over people that know their shit in those games.

People complained but it didn't fucking matter because MK11 outsold MKX.

Newsflash retard: this topic isn't about being some bizarre voyeur that jerks off over how much money a certain fighting game made over the other. This topic is about the discussion of fighting games and what is enjoyed about certain titles as well as what is despised about others. There were a lot of people like me that bought MK11, played it for a few weeks or even a few months and declared it to be rancid and a major step back from its predecessors. Ignoring every single criticism made towards MK11 and how it competitively failed only because, "well it made more money than every fighting game so who cares" tells me you are stunningly dumb. Going by this logic I guess a game like Diablo 3 stomps on Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 combined because it sold way more, was made to appeal to more casual gamers through its simplicity, and all those people for the last decade saying it is one of the worst ARPGs ever made and a true turning point for Blizzard going to shit? Who cares lol it made bank, right?

People like fucking around on fighting games.

Then you and your friends should fuck around on fighting games. You being a clear skill level above them should take it as a chance to try and bring them to your level instead of trying to bring everyone else down to theirs. But realistically, I am willing to bet you care more about your friends getting into a fighting game more than they actually care. For them it is precisely that: some goofy ass game to button mash around in and randomly pick up wins against someone else that is also clueless. If they have an actual interest in getting better and learning more, they'd simply do it like every single other person has through the history of time when something compelled them.

 

[Matador]

Daigo and Tokido top 8 through winners. Evil defeated.

 

[Shadowfang]

Sometimes a game flaws won't affect much it's number of sales but will affect the sales if their next game.

I was cautiously excited about SF6 until i played SFV, that i got for € 1.10.
If only based on my short (170h) experience with USF4, i would definitely get SF6, since i want to experience an FG when its most fresh and filled with players so i can learn in a more friendlier pace.
So, right now the decisions made on SFV are preventing me getting SF6 on release. Sure, SF6 has been announcing some features that i'm a little worried about but so far nothing to keep me completely off it.

I prefer getting my ass trashed on USF4 against players that have been honing their skills for 8 years than to trash the floor against a spammy Cammy or against a Ryu with perfect execution of hard combos, but with zero knowledge of neutral and footsies, being punished hard for each stupid random blocked/whiffed shoryuken. And i am afraid that SF6 will keep this formula going.

 

[GhostCow]

I saw a rumor on zzzchan a while back that SF6 was originally going to be some kind of tag team game and that it was so bad they changed leads and started over. I don't expect it to be good between that and how disappointing SFV was. I hope I'm wrong because SFIV was the last fighting game I really got into. I'm actually far more of a SNK guy, but the lack of crossplay in the new KOF made me decide against buying it.

 

[Matador]

Great Deceiver Assisted Living Godzilla Generic-Giant-Spider

Finally decided to dive into KOF 98. Will play in fightcade. I have the UMFE version but I don't know why I can´t remap the keyboard keys, some weird bug, a shame because I like the extra characters.
For KOF and GG I'm a Keyboard player because the movement is much easier than controller, specially in KOF where I can´t make consistent hoping in gamepad to save my life. I think it´s the best control device for 2D fighters if you don´t have a hitbox by far.

My key setup is (I use a similar setup in GG+R):
AltGr: jump
I: leftt
O: crouch
P: right
Numpad4: A
Numpad0: B
Numpad5: C
Numpad6: D
Numpad+: CD

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I'm actually far more of a SNK guy, but the lack of crossplay in the new KOF made me decide against buying it.

Good news actually, was revealed a couple days ago that KOF XV is getting crossplay. Hopefully this will come with some fix to their matchmaking and why they've delayed it for so long.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Street Fighter 4 didn't cause a 2D fighting game resurgence.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

AAAAAAAAH GAROU 2 CONFIRMED

 

[Matador]

AAAAAAAAH GAROU 2 CONFIRMED

Great news. I hope they improve the graphics and art direction from KOF XV.

 

[Great Deceiver]

AAAAAAAAH GAROU 2 CONFIRMED

I'm more hyped about rollback on Samsho tbh

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

I have to say SNK made a really dumb mistake in not making Geese top tier in KOF XV at least for Evo season here. Imagine how based it'd be to see KOF XV Top 8 dominated by Geese and then watch Tekken 7 right after and see him in Top 8 again.

 

[Matador]

Tekken would be better to watch without so much cheesy backdash, looks ridiculous.

 

[Shadowfang]

Tekken would be better to watch without so much cheesy backdash, looks ridiculous.

Since its already part of the franchise, they should animate it in a way that actually looks good.
Either embrace it all the way or do not and remove it.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Street Fighter 2 was also a pretty simple game to just pick up and play.

Maybe somebody else can explain to this dipshit why SF2 in the year of our Lord 1991 wasn't treated as a simplistic game when every game before it was stuff like Karate Champ or Urban Champion. It didn't become successful because it was simplistic, it was successful because of the factors of graphical quality, sound, unique characters and playstyles, and the general sentiment that it took fighters to a never before seen level and became a blueprint for many to follow in its wake. It's like you know you're wrong but you're trying desperately to find a way to look right which in turn only makes you look really dumb.

God you are like the dumbest fucker around. It doesn't matter that Street Fighter 2 had more going on than Karate Champ. That doesn't change the point. Street Fighter 2 was a relatively simple game; you didn't even have Super Combos with double motion inputs until the final version of SF2, it doesn't even have dashing. It's a game of normal attacks, high damage throws, small combos, and the most difficult move you'll do in the majority of them is your regular Super attack. That was the most popular Street Fighter game. As the series went on, and it became more complex, it also became less popular. Now, do you think it's a coincidence that Street Fighter became less popular as it add more complex systems and harder moves for players to learn? I know your stance is that the audience will reject simplistically, and some will, but Street Fighter lost its audience as it grew more complicated.

Capcom's Marvel related games, which in contrast had simpler move inputs and were much flashier, ended up outperforming their later Street Fighter games in the arcades.

God, the retardation continues and mutates. Idiot, Capcom's Marvel games were popular because get this: you're a kid or teenager in the '90s. You like video games, you like comic books, every day you'll play Street Fighter II: Special Champion Edition with your friends after school then watch X-Men the cartoon when they leave. You go into an arcade, you see this game called "X-Men vs. Street Fighter", you see Cyclops and Ryu shaking hands, you feel an erection of excitement come over you. It was a cross-over that while seemingly completely random, was amazing as it took two extremely well known IPs and smashed them together. This is why brand recognition is important. Not one single fucker that dropped coins in that machine did so because "wow I don't need to worry about inputs too much." They did it because they wanted to see Wolverine beat the shit out of M. Bison in an extremely over the top fashion.

And I don't even know why you keep retreating to these Capcom Vs. games when they had their very own skill ceiling to separate the good from the bad and in some cases were even more difficult to play depending on characters you selected. Have you ever actually touched these games or do you just look up a command list and think because supers require one less motion on occasion it must mean it's super easy to pick up and play? Because I can tell you through personal experience you won't be picking up Ws over people that know their shit in those games.

What the fuck are you talking about? Retreating to the VS games? We aren't talking about one specific game here. It's a general discussion about fighting games overall. The reason I brought it up is because it's pertinent to the topic at hand. The simpler, flasher Marvel related games Capcom was making did better than their Alpha games, and far better than their Street Fighter 3 games which completely bombed. Now you could say it's because Marvel was bigger, but Marvel wasn't bigger than Street Fighter 2 back when Capcom started making their Marvel games. Capcom's Marvel game were definitely helped by their simple controls. They were big flashy fighting games build on spectacle, and you could do those big flashy moves with those nice big bright colors sprites fairly easily. Being

You are aware Capcom made an X-Men fighting game, and a Marvel game before the crossover games? Nobody thought the crossover was some seemingly random thing back when it came out, because Capcom had already made two fighting games with Marvel characters before the crossovers...and those games were bigger than the new, harder Street Fighter games too.

People complained but it didn't fucking matter because MK11 outsold MKX.

Newsflash retard: this topic isn't about being some bizarre voyeur that jerks off over how much money a certain fighting game made over the other. This topic is about the discussion of fighting games and what is enjoyed about certain titles as well as what is despised about others. There were a lot of people like me that bought MK11, played it for a few weeks or even a few months and declared it to be rancid and a major step back from its predecessors. Ignoring every single criticism made towards MK11 and how it competitively failed only because, "well it made more money than every fighting game so who cares" tells me you are stunningly dumb. Going by this logic I guess a game like Diablo 3 stomps on Diablo 1 and Diablo 2 combined because it sold way more, was made to appeal to more casual gamers through its simplicity, and all those people for the last decade saying it is one of the worst ARPGs ever made and a true turning point for Blizzard going to shit? Who cares lol it made bank, right?

Fuck you are a stupid cunt. We were talking about how something being simpler could bring more people in. You said it was bad because SOME people didn't like it. But so fucking what if some didn't like it. The point was that it would do better...which it did do. Also, the Mortal Kombat series is itself a simple fighting game series so who the fuck cares? The idea that you'd bring up Mortal Kombat to make your point that doing something simpler is bad is fucking hilarious. It's also somewhat similarly funny that King of Fighters is your favorite fighting game when you were bitching about those modern controls in SF6 having only three normal attack buttons when your favorite fighting game series only has four as opposed to six.

It's unrelated to fighting games, but Blizzard has always been about the casual mass audience. If someone thinks Diablo 3 was some turning point for Blizzard they're as dumb as you are.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Street Fighter 4 didn't cause a 2D fighting game resurgence.

It didn't. Everything someone might think followed Street Fighter 4 would've happened without Street Fighter 4. SNK was already working on their last spirit based KoF games, work which started after KoF11 in 2005. Arc System Work was already working on BlazBlus, (which came out the same year as SF4) and had been releasing a number of 2D fighting games right before Street Fighter 4 came out; their Battle Fantasia game (while it was in location tests) was even a inspiration on them using 3D graphics for SF4. The deal Capcom made with Marvel for Marvel vs Capcom 3 was before Street Figntsr 4, and sounds like it happened because the newly appointed head of Marvel's videos games at the time was a fan of the Marvel vs Capcom games; he even leaked the existence of the game during a Comic-Con showing of the still in development SF4. It was a return for Street Fighter, and it was Capcom's biggest fighting game home release since Street Fighter 2, but it's not like you wouldn't have gotten the other 2D fighting games from around that time if Street Fighter 4 hadn't happened. You could call it a Street Fighter resurgence, since it and SF5 after it both did well.

Maybe the hype around SF4 was why Mortal Kombat '11 went to being 2D, but that could've also just be the poor reception the sidestep got in MKvDCU. The MK8 reboot game that got canned for MKvDCU sounded like it was going to be a return to 2D; some art for that leaked for the 2011 Mortal Kombat that gets called MK9 despite being 8.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

That doesn't change the point.

It does because what was considered simple in 1991 is different from what we consider it to be in 2022. Nobody in 1991 was considering SF2 a simple game because it didn't have any other game out there to directly compare it with. If I have to reiterate this one more time I'm going to assume you're incurably dumb.

Street Fighter lost its audience as it grew more complicated.

Oh gee, I'm sure it had nothing to do with the avalanche of other fighting games that emerged since then or the steady decline of arcades.

Now you could say it's because Marvel was bigger, but Marvel wasn't bigger than Street Fighter 2 back when Capcom started making their Marvel games.

Can you quickly run down everything you've done in life to get to this level of stupidity so a younger generation knows what steps to avoid? I get this sneaking suspicion a lot of people had an idea who Spider-Man and X-Men were and that applies to every demographic considering Marvel had been around for decades before that.

Capcom's Marvel game were definitely helped by their simple controls. They were big flashy fighting games build on spectacle

The simple controls was never the main draw and even in that bubble you're still avoiding the cold truth that there was actual execution and all that stuff you feel is a massive barrier to entry present. No one is picking up MvC2 and just belting out all the advanced combos on their first try. It could even be argued due to the tag mechanic in those games they were possibly as difficult or harder to learn because of naturally needing more character knowledge. And no, please God no, I don't want to argue it with you unless you promise to find a portal to Oz and ask for a brain.

The point was that it would do better...which it did do.

Doing good because you're coming hot off the heels of two games that were received well commercially, casually and competitively and would obviously sell a ton does not magically make the game itself great. MK11 was not a good game and a lot of why it was not good was precisely due to its much more simple and baffling design decisions that made it not only poor from a competitive standpoint, but from a spectator standpoint and even from an MK game as a whole.

Also, the Mortal Kombat series is itself a simple fighting game series so who the fuck cares?

The people that play those games competitively you dingbat. There was still depth in MK games and freedom to the gameplay, especially MK9, which MK11 intentionally sought to get rid of and result in a much more linear, boring and dumbed down game. This wasn't received well and the people that help keep these games in the conversation started abandoning ship and rightfully so.

It's also somewhat similarly funny that King of Fighters is your favorite fighting game when you were bitching about those modern controls in SF6 having only three normal attack buttons when your favorite fighting game series only has four as opposed to six.

Do you think KOF is easier to learn than SF?

 

[Shadowfang]

Assisted Living Godzilla, many devs have tried the route you are proposing without the effects you wish to achieve.
Those fighting games still loose player retention, casual and new players will still be trashed by more dedicated players and, in the saddest scenarios, these dumbed down games die quickly for not appealing to anyone.
This is a well documented subject with plenty of devs and players giving a lot of feedback on this. I could excuse you if this was never tried before, but in this day and age you have to be ignoring a lot to still think the way you do.

SFV, despite all its dumbing down, didn't had a better player retention than SFIV.
Dragon Ball Fighter Z, despite its auto-combos and simple playstyle, still lost 65% of its initial player base in its first month, and 95,45% in the first 4 months. It has now less players than Tekken 7, the least dumbed down FG, even though it still is.

So you can simplify any game all you want it still won't amount to nothing. Past the input barrier they will find a new barrier to complain about and leave. It will be either lack of framedata knowledge, that some moves are too fast to counter just by reaction, etc.

About the claim that SF4 did revive the FG genre i can't really tell because i don't have the numbers right now. But in the arcade stick market, it is clear the influence of SF4.
Not only on how many of them had sf4 art but also on the sudden offer of arcade sticks from many brands.
If you search for arcade sticks on google trends you will find out that there was a huge spike on 2009. What happened in 2009 you ask? SF4 was released in both consoles and pc.

 

[Assisted Living Godzilla]

Tekken 7 better have more players than Dragon Ball FighterZ, it outsold it.

The two biggest retail fighting games on the market are also the most simple. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate has sold over 27 million copies, MK11 has over 12 million, Tekken 7 was over 9 million, DBFZ hit 8 million last year...it could be possible DBFZ has more sales then Tekken 7, since it did have more last year, and last year seems to be the last time they release numbers on it. Unless there's official information on player retention from the companies themselves you're never going to know what it is; you can look at Steam stats to get a picture of what it might be, but the main platform for fighting games historical is not the PC.

Street Fighter 4 only revived Street Fighter. Yes, there were other 2D fighting games that came out around the same time SF4 did. It was a good year for 2D fighting games. And Street Fighter 4 was the best selling home release for a Street Fighter since the PSX release of Alpha 3 ten years earlier. But those games coming out around SF4 had nothing to do with Street Fighter 4, and SNK basically dies again a couple years later and doesn't come back until they're brought up by some Hong Kong company. If you're talking fighting games overall Tekken 6 outsold SF4 the same year, and Tekken 5 outsold Tekken 6 a few years before that; Tekken 5 is overall still their best selling Tekken game, even with the shorter time between games. Tekken 7 has also only sold as much as Tekken 3, despite Tekken 3 having two years before the next Tekken came out.

 

[Shadowfang]

Tekken 7 better have more players than Dragon Ball FighterZ, it outsold it.

It did not. How could it have? A Dragon Ball game will always sell a lot regardless of its genre. No way a regular fighting franchise could compete.

you can look at Steam stats to get a picture of what it might be, but the main platform for fighting games historical is not the PC.

Right now PC has 3 times the player base of consoles regarding GG Strive. But its meaningless. Player retention will probably won't change much from platform.

Street Fighter 4 only revived Street Fighter.

No. It boosted the interest on Fighting Games in general, regardless if they were already in the making or not.
It even boosted the sales of arcade sticks that we benefit until this day, even though i might be coming to an end.

The sales of the old SF and of Tekkens are irrelevant today because the player base is not the same.
Many genres were more popular back then than what they are now. But even if it weren't case that would mean that the less dumbed down Tekken 5 sold more than Tekken 7 with its rage drives and easy dumb characters like Claudio, Catarina and the likes, that would lead us to conclude that simplifying games injure sales.

Regarding Smash and Smash likes, they could be a completely be considered a completely different seeing how little overlap there is with both communities.

 

[KVVRR]

DBFZ getting rollback will probably give it a boost. Unsure as to how much that boost will last, though

 

[Great Deceiver]

DBFZ exemplifies everything that Godzilla doesn't understand. It's a game with massive popular appeal beacuse of the brand and characters, not because it's easy to play - experienced players wipe the floor with novices and there's zero chance for them unless they're really willing to commit to put in the time and learn the system, regardless of the existence of auto-combos or whatever. One-touch death combos are pretty common with lots of flashy shit on the screen. Plus the pace of the game is very fast.

So playercounts don't really tell the whole story. I'd wager that most people that bought the game did so because they thought it looked cool and they like the franchise (and it does look very cool). They'll never put in the time to git gud, so they just play the story mode and put the game away. It's alright. There are also competitive players who feel rewarded for their constant efforts because the game is well-made from a systems standpoint. You can't expect to please everyone with the same product, especially in a niche genre like FGs. If you try to be everything to everyone, you end up with a shit game or one that isn't really a FG. As I said before, the ones screeching the loudest about the need for simplified inputs etc. are the ones who don't play and who don't want to play FGs, regardless of any changes that are made. They just resent other people having fun where they can't.