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Hellraiser

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Actually this would also be a good show of force, it should make our rivals tremble or at least acknowledge that Anthony is a threat.They don't need to know it was a one time deal even if it was one. It can work both ways but it might work and it would definitely change the political landscape. Although I think that we can't ignore what is inside of the mansion. It could be a red herring and a waste of time.

I'm flip-floping my vote to C if possible then.
 

Kz3r0

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Great, so all the barons will know that we have a personal hit squad to use, this surely will change the political landscape, against us.
Do you guys really think that the other barons don't have something similar?
 

laclongquan

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Our goals are to open up new relations so we can manipulate politic and find more resources. At this stage, the South offers more opportunities than anywhere, given that we spent out credibility in the central area (Erika and Samantha). And we dont want Anthony go visiting those other candicates since that show his weakened position.

Our threat is from all sides. We are a new baron holding the central position (Kine politicians in Whitehall) so a lot would want to take us down a notch or two. maybe even topple us to gain control Whitehall. We literally can not afford to appear weak, or timid.

Our asset that we can use reliably, is only Edgar and his group. Well, there's also our link with Whitehall politicians but it's a nontangible asset that we can not and should not trade away.

CCCCCCCCCCCC doesnt mean we spent Edgar and his group. NO, we use that resource in a strike to demonstrate our strength for all to see. We are not upsurping any authority here since there's no Prince and we are a baron, theoretically equal to others. And the South need helps. And this move prove that we have weapons and are not hesitant in using them. With luck, nobody on Cami and Anarch side will realize that they are our only, and so will be reluctant to attack us.

EDIT: and as I said before, the value of the Kine hit squad is its secretcy in our possession. They do not compare to a few Kindred, and they can be buried under a wave of ghouls, the which any reasonably strong baron can do. In secret, they are Anthony's hidden oneshot weapon. Exposed, they are just a group of great ghouls, but nothing to get excited about. The barons will only strike at them in punishment if Anthony use them for political assassination.
 

Hellraiser

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Exactly we need the southern barons to be brought into the picture. Yes it can potentially doom Anthony, but he may as well already be doomed. The Mandrake thing could be a sign of such a plot against him. There is no prince and something is definitely up, politics and vampire politics in particular do not like power vacuums. The raid on the Sabbat and the southern barons are variables that may mess up whatever plans our rivals had. We should use that while we have the chance.
 

Kz3r0

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Oh joy, someone is already trying to topple us through the press, probably hunters judging by the prologue, the other barons probably will gladly put a stake through our heart if they could and now we are going to piss off the Sabbath even more, I am surprised that the Anarchs haven't joined the club yet.
 

Esquilax

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After reading through the background info, it seems our position isn't very secure. Here are the issues that we face:
  • Our position as Baron of Whitehall is only temporary for now
  • Edgar Fellowes, our most loyal and most effective asset, might become enticed away from our service by a more powerful employer in the future.
  • Somebody from Venice (i.e. someone important within the Camarilla) will be coming by, and they are not pleased with the state of affairs in London. According to Costello, " the local Camarilla’s under probation, essentially. The Inner Circle want to be certain that every baron is loyal, and they want an trustworthy leader to come in and root out any more, ahm, rogue elements." Considering our involvement and early support of Samantha Eames, this is a cause for some serious concern.
  • A kine, possibly connected to the Hunters in the first part of the update, has been monitoring us. A loose end like this could end up seriously fucking us over.
Actually this would also be a good show of force, it should make our rivals tremble or at least acknowledge that Anthony is a threat.They don't need to know it was a one time deal even if it was one. It can work both ways but it might work and it would definitely change the political landscape. Although I think that we can't ignore what is inside of the mansion. It could be a red herring and a waste of time.

Why the hell would we want this? Inciting the jealousy of the other Barons and getting in their crosshairs is just about the worst way to go about things. I understand the appeal in flexing our muscles, but Camarilla politics just doesn't work that way.

The problem is that the Barons in the south are content to avoid the Sabbat because they have the luxury of being able to do so at the moment. Their positions and their unlives are not at risk right now, so they can afford to turn a blind eye. I mentioned this in the old thread - the main reason to take out the Sabbat right now would be so that the Barons of South London would support a Prince of our choosing (i.e. the Gangrel fellow who seems to be interested in speaking with us). However, raiding a few Sabbat dens filled with pissant shovelheads is hardly the sort of thing that will make them indebted to us.

I say we remain patient here. In fact, it might even help if the Sabbat start to cause serious problems in the south for the Camarilla. When things start becoming much more desperate there and we get a better idea of who the important players within the Sabbat are, then we come in and show what we're capable of - let's not reveal our assets so frivolously. Just like Bob Page said, "Why contain it? Let it spill over to the schools and churches, let the bodies pile up in the streets. In the end they'll beg us to save them."

With this in mind, I will flop to A) Explore Witanhurst. I'm thinking we could find something that might put us in good standing with the Camarilla bigwig that will inevitably be coming to London shortly. C is a good idea, but I think it's too early to start attacking the Sabbat at this point. That being said, I still think we should start doing our homework; we need to find out who the major players in the Sabbat are, where their people are located, etc. and for that, I propose we (P) Costello for details on the Sabbat and their leadership. She's a harpy, so she should have some general knowledge here at least.
 

ironyuri

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First of all, I'd like to thank grotsnik for being a bro and making a new thread as well as writing that abridgement for intervening events, not only is it a joy to read, as always, but starting a new LP thread with Sommers gives me a reason to login to the Codex again, which I haven't been doing regularly for months now- thanks bro.

Alright, in the old thread I had stated I was vacillating between A and C- not much has changed. To speak to a few points, as Esquilax did, and with some fine additions:

> Edgar Fellowes may be enticed to another, more powerful baron? I highly doubt this possibility. When Fellowes and Sommers were stuck together for days on end during the Angelos plot, they grew close. Fellowes, I'm willing to bet is still loyal to Anthony above anyone else in the London Camarilla, even if he were enticed by another baron, it's entirely possible that would work in Sommers' favour, were Eddie still a die-hard.

> The Camarilla wants an external Prince in London. This is not necessarily the worst possible outcome. Sommers, from day one of this LP, has not been a low enough generation to become Prince, even if that was our ultimate goal. The passage of time from when Sommers first opened the elaborate correspondence from du Marchais way back when, can't be more than 9 months to a year, if not much less, given grotsnik's narrative pacing. Sommers has built up a power base and grown from patrician of Whitehall to a baron earning grudging respect, but this does not make him Prince material. Our immediate/long-term current aim should be to earn the right to the barony of Westminster and to *hold* it permanently. Sommers' strength is in his connection to the kine political structures and his ability to manipulate and exploit them against other kindred, once we secure that barony, we'll truly secure Sommers' long-term future within the London Camarilla. That brings me back to the opening of this point: a foreign Prince is not a terrible outcome. Prince William of Orange, King George I of Hanover are examples of foreign monarchs transplanted into the British state - a foreigner, as an unknown quantity, may bring stability to the Camarilla precisely because the barons won't know the extent of his/her power or their ability to challenge it. Sommers has been seen, since his triumphic entry into a barony following the defeat of Angelos, as a dangerous maverick, so in the short-term he needs must prove his loyalty to the establishment.

> Whereas Turcov once embraced Anthony Sommers, he is now our main rival, our nemesis as it were. London is not big enough for two politick kindred and Turcov as the lower generation will doubtless see Sommers as an upstart who has risen well above his station in too short a time. With Earnes out of the picture, Turcov will be making new allies; we need to circumvent this, however, that won't be achieved by more petty displays of power in essentially folly forays into Sabbat held South London. Sommers needs the barons to come to him -- by going to them, at best he'd be humiliating them in their own territory, and at worst, breeding resentment when they begin to see him as vainglorious. Turcov is not going to spend his power unwisely reclaiming territories none of the central barons care about, and, referring back to my second point, Sommers will set play his trump card to secure the shaky loyalty or the begrudging debt of the southern barons while Turcov secures his position as Camarilla king-maker? I think not. Anthony needs to become the power behind the throne, the local kindred who can act for a foreign Prince, not a possible rebel.

> The Camarilla in Vienna/Venice is concerned about anti-Tremere backlash in London. Rather than wasting Operation Wistman on the Sabbat, perhaps Sommers can prove his worth by preserving the Chantries and moving against any kindred that tries to instigate a witch hunt or pogrom of sorts against the remaining Tremere. That would prove Sommers to be a much more valuable Camarilla asset than showing a few shovelheads what a sunrise is.

With those points made-

I am voting AExplore Witanhurst. The new campaign is only just beginning. There's no rush, but time is short. Let's take a look at Sommers' new home, we might turn up something useful or valuable, and it won't hurt to shore up any holes in SECURITY. Even if we don't find any buried treasure, at the very least we should make certain there are no secret passages through which a rival baron's assassin might gain entry, and more than that, who knows what kind of dusty tomes or bargaining chips we might find?

As to Esquilax second suggestion that we (P)hone Costello and request information- might I suggest a subtle tweak, Esquilax, my good bro-we now have a Nosferatu bodyguard (of sorts), Mr. Cripps. I assume he's more than just a hideous face. He's a Nosferatu, perhaps instead of a phone call, we just just ask him to seek the information on our behalf. grotsnik has not fully fleshed out whether Cripps is a bodyguard (muscle) or, if personal safety means "information gathering" and "surveillance", if it is the latter, then as a sewer rat, I'm sure he'd be a better source on the Sabbat than the Harpies. The second reason I suggest a tweak is that Costello is sometimes "difficult to reach" and as she's just attended Sommers' residence, she may not like receiving a call on the same evening. Cripps, if he's still connected to the Nosferatu as a whole, and if their information gathering networks are recovered from the post-Angelos backlash, may be able to find out much more useful information than anyone else in Sommers' pay. So if we're allowed a "phonecall" action or a "delegation" type action before we undertake a narrative one, then that would be my suggestion.



Post summary (tl;dr):

- Sommers' short term goal: to become London kingmaker; to retain and consolidate himself as Baron of Whitehall.
- Secure his position within the Camarilla without revealing his hand to other barons too early.
- A Explore Witanhurst; (P) (or just ask) Cripps to gather or seek information on the state of the London Sabbat and their leadership.
 

Kz3r0

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Actually defending the Tremere would be a good idea, we will make some powerful ally in that way, and counterbalance any major shift in power.
 

Gondolin

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Interesting. Perhaps we should also find out at some point who the party in Venice is and if they're willing to send a representative for a friendly chat.
 

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Google.
The "party in Venice" is the public Inner Circle. The highest govt instance of the Camarilla. One low gen dude/dudette from each main Clan. Six all in all. Gangrel left in 1998.
So our Gangrel friend from Venice is a racetraitor.

 

Esquilax

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Edgar Fellowes may be enticed to another, more powerful baron? I highly doubt this possibility. When Fellowes and Sommers were stuck together for days on end during the Angelos plot, they grew close. Fellowes, I'm willing to bet is still loyal to Anthony above anyone else in the London Camarilla, even if he were enticed by another baron, it's entirely possible that would work in Sommers' favour, were Eddie still a die-hard.

Eddie is our closest ally and one of the best assets we have, sure. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't take the guy for granted or assume that there might not be a time in the future where we might be enemies. Yeah, we've had some success in becoming Baron of Whitehall for now, but should our star fall, will Eddie still have our back? I don't know.

The Camarilla wants an external Prince in London. This is not necessarily the worst possible outcome. Sommers, from day one of this LP, has not been a low enough generation to become Prince, even if that was our ultimate goal. The passage of time from when Sommers first opened the elaborate correspondence from du Marchais way back when, can't be more than 9 months to a year, if not much less, given grotsnik's narrative pacing. Sommers has built up a power base and grown from patrician of Whitehall to a baron earning grudging respect, but this does not make him Prince material. Our immediate/long-term current aim should be to earn the right to the barony of Westminster and to *hold* it permanently. Sommers' strength is in his connection to the kine political structures and his ability to manipulate and exploit them against other kindred, once we secure that barony, we'll truly secure Sommers' long-term future within the London Camarilla. That brings me back to the opening of this point: a foreign Prince is not a terrible outcome. Prince William of Orange, King George I of Hanover are examples of foreign monarchs transplanted into the British state - a foreigner, as an unknown quantity, may bring stability to the Camarilla precisely because the barons won't know the extent of his/her power or their ability to challenge it. Sommers has been seen, since his triumphic entry into a barony following the defeat of Angelos, as a dangerous maverick, so in the short-term he needs must prove his loyalty to the establishment.

What I'm concerned about with an external Prince is that he might see Anthony's young age and our initial relationship with Samantha Eames as sign we aren't fit to rule Whitehall. I have no doubt that given the opportunity, Turcov will throw us under the bus and try to make us look like an incompetent fool who let Eames run amok. That is the real problem in my eyes. I agree that things will probably start getting more fierce between Sommers and Turcov, particularly if we back a guy like Vogel.

I am with you about fighting for the cause. However, we need to fight for the cause while the Camarilla envoy is there to see it, which is yet another reason to hold off going after the Sabbat. We can make hell of an impression by assassinating a Sabbat leader while he's in town.


As to Esquilax second suggestion that we (P)hone Costello and request information- might I suggest a subtle tweak, Esquilax, my good bro-we now have a Nosferatu bodyguard (of sorts), Mr. Cripps. I assume he's more than just a hideous face. He's a Nosferatu, perhaps instead of a phone call, we just just ask him to seek the information on our behalf. grotsnik has not fully fleshed out whether Cripps is a bodyguard (muscle) or, if personal safety means "information gathering" and "surveillance", if it is the latter, then as a sewer rat, I'm sure he'd be a better source on the Sabbat than the Harpies. The second reason I suggest a tweak is that Costello is sometimes "difficult to reach" and as she's just attended Sommers' residence, she may not like receiving a call on the same evening. Cripps, if he's still connected to the Nosferatu as a whole, and if their information gathering networks are recovered from the post-Angelos backlash, may be able to find out much more useful information than anyone else in Sommers' pay. So if we're allowed a "phonecall" action or a "delegation" type action before we undertake a narrative one, then that would be my suggestion.

Reason I didn't want to ask Mr Cripps is that from the description, he doesn't seem like your typical skulking Nosferatu a la Oscar. He's great at busting heads, but he doesn't seem suited for tasks like recon and surveillance or anything that requires some finesse for that matter. He might know a guy from the Warrens that might be up for the job (particularly if we've fostered a somewhat decent relationship among the Sewer Rats), but I wouldn't ask him to do the job personally. In fact, I think he might take offence to it - he was hired as a bodyguard, not as a spy.

We're putting the cart before the horse at this point. Right now we just need basic details about the Sabbat resurgence in the south, and for that general information, I think Costello is the right person. No big deal to me either way, however, as long as we are doing something to advance our position.
 

laclongquan

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1. On Eddie: C is another chance for Eddie. Since we dont take Edgar for granted, a chance for him and his squad to show off is nice. All other reasons applied, of course. But C has this benefit. Anyway, looking at the visage of Mr Cripps night in night out do tire a fellow's sense of :obviously: We dont want Edgar to think we like Nos better than Tore, right?

2. On Tremere: We dont really need to buy Tremere support. For one thing, they will think that Anthony has something to do with her downfall, considering her first attack is aimed at him. Therefore the rank and file of Tremere will look at him with suspicion. IF there hadnt been such action, I would have agreed that provide support for them is a logical and consistent course. As it is, we will have to wait a chance to make contact and make nice with them. Later chance, I mean. For another, you want to become Tremere puppet again? Do remember the credit of the ambush under the power station fall on Tremere, not us. I have no confidence we can hold upper hand in dealing with them, politically.

3. On intelligence in the south: fortunately we dont really need gossip for that. A single attack from us at Sabbat den there will show that we are wanting to suppress them. Therefore, those weakened and fearful barons of the south will come find us to make deals, we have no need to go looking. Beside the nature of this attack is kinda like a recon in force. We dont really want a pitch battle that cause heavy loss in our squad. get in, jab, get out. Al though the idea of gathering intel on the South by way of Costello is worth considering, I want you to consider its value: when they provide intel on prospective candicates, they say there're 3 while we know for sure 5. It means any intel from that corner is suspect and incomplete.

CCCCCCC, I beg you.

EDIT: anyway, the images of several barons come looking for us while we sit in our fine mansion do tickle my fancy :obviously:
 

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SerratedBiz a
Kz3r0 a
Gondolin a
oscar a
SCO a
Esquilax a
Sergiu64 a
ironyuri a
Smashing Axe a
Lambchop19 a

laclongquan c
Storyfag c
Hellraiser c

CappenVarra d
????? d

Excidium g

I am flipfloping to D!
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

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Well, after reading through all 100 pages of the last thread, let me just say this:

Thank. You. grotsnik.

Excellent read. Lot's of plot twists. You may think you failed with the inclusion of Joan, but it actually spiced up the read - after all, if the protagonist changes that means the former protagonist can die. It sort of helped keep me guessing.

As to the current choices: A. Now I'd rather pick D & blood bond them(?) or F, as we need allies to manipulate more than anything else presently, but I really don't want to risk one or two of you changing your mind and going with C.

Basically, everything ironyuri said - except Mr Cripps. He should come with us while we explore. We're not exactly the vampire Jean Claude van Damme if you recall...

Also, it's true we don't want to take Edgar for granted. Should we could (P) call him? Offer him a our thanks as well as a suitable gift for all his recent service? Hopefully we've already taken steps to be able to bypass him and ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the team directly should he betray us like Oscar.
 
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Now that I am finally registered let me say that I love your LPs. the Call of Cthulhu one was pure awesome and this is just as good.

With that said. Go for A. Using the elite team assembled and trained in secret is like using your queen to mop up pawns. Overkill and dangerous to the queen.

Right now Anthony is exposed in his own home, that is unacceptable.
 

SCO

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Mandrake is probably some wanker from network zero.

Paranoid? Me?
 

grotsnik

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Cheers, newcomers! Right. A has it, obviously. Phone voting's been a bit sporadic this round - I'll put a quick reminder about contacts at the end of this update.
 

Esquilax

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As to the current choices: A. Now I'd rather pick D & blood bond them(?) or F, as we need allies to manipulate more than anything else presently, but I really don't want to risk one or two of you changing your mind and going with C.

This is a great point. Our support base is pretty shit, to be honest. Our influence among the Kine is stronger than ever between William Horn and our ghoul shock troops, but we have virtually no valuable assets among the Kindred. Before we start playing kingmaker, our first order of business should be in cultivating alliances among our fellow vamps.

I think that C would be pretty detrimental from that standpoint - if we went in and raided the Sabbat it would stir up resentment amongst the Southern Barons, who would see as as a glory-seeker coming in to clean up their problems uninvited. Given our reputation as a maverick, our ghoul squad would be seen as as dangerous. We need to make them need our help, and I think the best way to do this is to wait until the Sabbat have them cornered.

In the meantime, I think A will allow us to perhaps find some old trinket that might be related to the Camarilla envoy that will be coming by. Perhaps something to get into their good graces? Either way, knowing our surroundings is a good first move.

Also, it's true we don't want to take Edgar for granted. Should we could (P) call him? Offer him a our thanks as well as a suitable gift for all his recent service? Hopefully we've already taken steps to be able to bypass him and ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the team directly should he betray us like Oscar.

Sommers leading the squad directly should only be a last resort. Tony's combat skills are mediocre at best, and he might crack under pressure during a serious gunfight on account of being a pussy. Is Erika still among her Clan or has she returned to the city? If Eddie betrays us, she could make a fine soldier whom we can somewhat trust.
 

Storyfag

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This is a great point. Our support base is pretty shit, to be honest. Our influence among the Kine is stronger than ever between William Horn and our ghoul shock troops, but we have virtually no valuable assets among the Kindred. Before we start playing kingmaker, our first order of business should be in cultivating alliances among our fellow vamps.

I think that C would be pretty detrimental from that standpoint - if we went in and raided the Sabbat it would stir up resentment amongst the Southern Barons, who would see as as a glory-seeker coming in to clean up their problems uninvited. Given our reputation as a maverick, our ghoul squad would be seen as as dangerous. We need to make them need our help, and I think the best way to do this is to wait until the Sabbat have them cornered.

Totally agreed on the first part, totally disagreed on the latter. The southern Barons have to know they can ask us for help. So they have to know we have the means of killing Sabbat licks at our disposal. For that, some sort of demonstration would be in order...

Guys...

How about we blood bond Eddie?

Uncool man, uncool. As I understand it, the Camarilla frowns upon blatant blood bonding. They have explicitly forbidden the Tremere to blood bond each and every new neonate to their Council of Seven, for example... That, however, might stem from the fact that the Tremere draw power from their unity. Unconditional loyalty of all members of this Clan would certainly make it *too* powerful. Not sure about other laws regulating blood bonds, if there are any.
 

SerratedBiz

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For that, some sort of demonstration would be in order...

Would it, really? We're Ventrue, the icons of diplomacy in this little house of horrors that is London. Why make our secret weapon known to all when the purpose we wish to serve with it can just as easily be fulfilled with some well played word fencing?

We'd be best served by playing to our strengths - the ghoul SWAT not being one of these, but rather a wild card - and using our irresistible charm-presence to contact the southern Barons on behalf of our circle of (Central?) Barons. Arrange the contact, coordinate their efforts in squashing the Sabbat presence between them. Let's play this game with brains instead of brawns, so that when the time comes to elect / for the Prince to choose the new Seneschal there will be a very firm candidate for the job.
 

laclongquan

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Look, precisely because we are Ventrue that a demonstration is in order. If we are, for example, Gangrel, or Brujah, people will know we got fangs to back our words. But we are Ventrue, master of diplomatic crafts, people will rightfully suspect we got more barks than bites, so to speak.

On another note, yo grotsnik~ When is the next update? It's nearly one week already.
 

ironyuri

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For that, some sort of demonstration would be in order...

Would it, really? We're Ventrue, the icons of diplomacy in this little house of horrors that is London. Why make our secret weapon known to all when the purpose we wish to serve with it can just as easily be fulfilled with some well played word fencing?

We'd be best served by playing to our strengths - the ghoul SWAT not being one of these, but rather a wild card - and using our irresistible charm-presence to contact the southern Barons on behalf of our circle of (Central?) Barons. Arrange the contact, coordinate their efforts in squashing the Sabbat presence between them. Let's play this game with brains instead of brawns, so that when the time comes to elect / for the Prince to choose the new Seneschal there will be a very firm candidate for the job.

I brought up the Central vs Southern barons idea, and it would be easier to explain if I still had a copy of grotsnik's territorial map of London, because the southern parts of London are split between Anarch/Sabbat/weak Camarilla control according to grotsnik's current campaign. The hold of the Camarilla on the south bank (traditionally industrial-working class) is fairly tenuous, he's implied.

I think some people voting are still trying to play Anthony as some kind of gung-ho rambo. The reaction from the London barons after Anthony brought down Bishop Angelos was not a favourable one, and if it weren't for Earnes and Turcov needing his assistance to form a ruling triumvirate (due to Anthony's savvy) he'd probably have been staked well before now. It would seem that the other barons don't yet know about Anthony's ghouled special forces team, why show our hand?

As I recall, we voted that they'd be jointly bound to Anthony and Eddie, and as grotsnik indicated, Eddie's long-term loyalty is once again in doubt. What would stop Fellowes from taking credit for any action south of the Thames? The ghoul team has been trained by him and is under his nominal field command. If we send him off on his own with the squad, just to flex our own muscles, what's to stop him taking credit and walking into the court/elysium of another Baron and offering his and the squad's services?

We didn't ghoul the squad to use against the Sabbat. At least that was my understanding. They're meant to be our trump card against kindred like Turcov. They can operate during the day time, when we cannot, and if need be, eliminate rival barons if they become a threat to Anthony's continued existence. The Sabbat is still rebuilding, and if the southern Barons cannot handle a disorganised Sabbat by themselves then they should be left to sink or swim because they're unfit.
 

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