Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[Kea]

you can pretty much just farm murphy ghost on the first floor til you're like lvl 13-14. then go to floor 4 via elevator and get the ribbon and then down to floor 9 to farm a little for some gear and then you can finish the game.

Do people really do that? Murphy's Ghost gives 4450 XP, so figure 741 each for a party of six. My Level 14 Priest had a little over 920,000 experience, so to get there just from Murphy's Ghost would mean fighting him about 1240 times. I suppose it's safer than farming floors 9 and 10, but still...

 

[Dorarnae]

I do it(well at least lvl 13)...I think people get at least lvl 9-10. it takes a lot more exp after that.

 

[aweigh]

Kea

AMBUSH-EDIT: No, people don't really farm Murphy's Ghost until level 13 unless they're replaying the game. The first time through, perhaps the first few times even; you want to level up while exploring the dungeons. However once you know each map by heart and know exactly where to go and which enemies to kill to get the best loot then yeah, a lot of people choose to level up first by farming Murphy's Ghost. There is no equivalent to Murphy's Ghost in later Wizardry titles, btw, although there are most definitely areas that are obviously designed to be "farmed" with enemies that give good XP, gold and/or weapons and who are "safe".

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What I'm about to say will seem controversial especially amongst other Wizardry fanatics, but I say this with all the love for Wizardry in the world:

Play Wizardry 5 next as it introduces weapon ranges (Close-range weapons, Short-range Weapons, Medium-range weapons and Long-range weapons) and it also features the zenith and absolute masterful pinnacle of the Wizardry spell system with the largest amount of spells in any Wizardry title including 6, 7 and 8.

It features the best enemy encounter design and it features the best "pacing" of any of the 8 Wizardry titles. In terms of map/dungeon design I will always prefer the map layouts of Wizardry 3 as my favorite in the entire series but Wizardry 5 is no slouch and features massive, gigantic dungeons that for the first time in the Wizardry series break out of the 20x20 limitations.

Overall it is the best Wizardry game and while playing it, even though it came out 30 years ago, you will find that in those 30 years there has not been a single RPG that has innovated on the Wizardry 5 mechanics! Series such as Wizardry Empire and Elminage surpass Wizardry 5 but only because they take everything in Wizardry 5, mechanics-wise and design-wise and dungeon-wise, and expand upon it organically and very naturally, but they don't "innovate"; they take and they polish and they polish that mechanic or that design element until it is a Pro-Magic Mirror Sheen that Werdna himself would be proud to own.

I recommend that you play the Playstation 1 version of Wizardry 5 over the SNES version for only 1 reason:

1) the Playstation 1 version features a 1:1 game script dump of Wizardry 5 whereas the SNES version cut down the dialog from NPCs considerably, enough so that if you were to try to play Wizardry 5 on the SNES without any knowledge of the NPC dialog and their requests/puzzles beforehand or without utilizing a Wiki you would almost certainly never be able to finish the game without resorting to utilizing a game Wiki simply because the SNES version's NPC dialog was so truncated due to cartridge memory constraints.

2) there is no other reason. Some people prefer the SNES version's soundtrack and some prefer the Playstation 1 versino's soundtrack, and some prefer the SNES's 2D sprites and some prefer the PS1's 3D polygonal dungeons. However as someone who has played Wizardry 5 on PC, SNES and on PS1 I can tell you without any doubt whatsoever that the best experience will be on the Playstation 1 version.

Everyone is going to tell you to either play them in order or they will instead say that if you play Wizardry 5 before 2, 3, 4, 6, 7 and 8 that you will spoil yourself and decide not to play the other titles because they will be too "primitive" in comparison. Those people are dead wrong. The reason to play Wizardry 1-5 is for the dungeon design, the enemy design, the spells, the class systems, the weapons, the exploration, the itemization, the skinner-box elements, the party-building machinations and the fantastic balance of dungeoneering and loot-acquisition.

All of those elements are present in all 8 Wizardry titles, but they fade away from Wizardry 6 onwards. Wizardry 6, 7 and 8 are fantastic games in their own right but they are completely different in design and in game mechanics than Wizardry 1-5. In fact, wizardry 7 and 8 do not even feature actual dungeons.

They also completely removed all aspects of Wizardry that made the games replayable and fun such as the entire spell system (every single spell was replaced with dumbed-down spells that are more recognizable as buff/debuff/damage/heal derivatives instead of the fantastically esoteric and very magical interpretation of a spell system and its spells in Wizardry 1-5.

So go ahead and treat yourself and start Wizardry 5 on the Playstation 1 (or SNES, but remember the dialog was cut in that version so use a Wiki); go ahead and let yourself enjoy the best RPG mechanics from the last 30 years which have yet to be innovated on by any developer be they Western or Eastern.

After you have finished Wizardry 5 which is a massive game which will take you around 40-60 hours to finish the first time through I recommend either:

- Playing and finishing Wizardry 6 right after if you want to experience just how severe the changes are from 6 onwards; or going backwards and playing 3 for the (in my opinion) best dungeon maps in the entire 8 game series.

- Alternatively, once you play and finish Wizardry 5, instead take a break from classic Wizardry and jump straight to Elminage: Gothic on Windows PC, made by past-Wizardry develoeprs and dungeon-crawler experts Starfish studios. Starfish studios has been making Wizardry games since 1998 with the Wizardry Empire series, and once they lost the rights to the Wizardry license they began the Elminage series on the PSP with Elminage: Original.

- Or play whatever the fuck you want because who the fuck is anyone to tell you what the fuck to play

 

[Kea]

Huh, didn't realize that Wiz 5 had a cut down script on the SNES. I'll think about playing Wiz5 next, but it goes against my nature to play a series out of order if all the games in it are good. Seeing how games evolve over time is part of the fun.

Elminage: Gothic sounds interesting from skimming the thread here; I might take a look at it when it next goes on sale. For now I'm playing different games though.

 

[Roqua]

CRPG Forum is dead to me ever since they moved Wizardry 3 thread to JRPG forum.

Keep 'em coming!

I asked you before for some good recommendations to turn someone who likes crpgs into a dungeon crawler fan and you recommended Elminage Gothic - one of the worst, content lacking games ever made. On my own I bought two games that both blow elminage gothic out of the water - they are Etrain Odyssey II and Class of Heroes 2 for my kids shitty hand console things. Class of Heroes has a ton of quests and a real map with towns and shit, but it isn't letting me change to a Samurai with two out of the three people that per the manual should be able to. The one that can is a backrow guy and I don't want him to. They are good alignment and meet the stats per the manual, I don't get it. This game actually has a lot of equipment slots, which I like, and the item crafting isn't too awful. But, it is a no-choice leveling system and that is dumb (other than switching classes).

EO II has a really nice character progression system, not as many quests, but has a story and short term goals, etc. And so far no fucking stupid ass maze puzzles. It also only has a three item and one weapon for equipment slots. The chardev has a great opportunity cost system and I'm really enjoying it and I think the selling trash opens new items in the shop is a good idea.

What other ones of these are crpg dungeon crawlers with content and great chardev systems? Someone was telling me about Generation Xth. None of these are at any game store near me, for anything not just the shitty hand consoles my kids have or the systems they have. Are these games good, and is there any PC versions or other recommendations?

 

[Roqua]

Also, what the fuck is up with the walkthrough links but no description of the game? Don't tell me you are one of those pussies that read walkthroughs and makes a cookie cutter party that your betters told you about? Don't be that guy. Crpgs are so much fun figuring this shit out on your own. You version the game.

 

[Viata]

Roqua Generation Xth is PC-only(there is a 'remake' for Vita, but it's shit, or so I heard), but only the first one was translated. It's pretty good and above Elminage, imo. They are more plot-related, though. There is also Stranger in Sword Land from the same dev, also for pc(was released to consoles later). By content you mean more side-quests and whatnot? And what would you define a good chardev system? That may help me recommend good dungeon crawlers.

 

[aweigh]

Roqua

...a man who puts down the best Wiz-clone of the last 15 years (yes, because Wizardry Empire 2 came out 2002) and then in the following sentence praises Etrian Odyssey 2. :D

there's nothing wrong with EO, sure, but it's basically the end result of what happened when japanese devs who love 'Crawlers decided they weren't selling enough game units so they took the traditional Wiz-clone blueprint and removed everything that gave that blueprint mechanical maturity and challenging depth and replaced it with a (admittedly very well thought out) mish-mash of normal JRPG "tropes", not in story but in things like:

- using a Skill Tree system.

evidence of extreme casual, as dum-dums don't understand an RPG if every character doesn't have clear cut and simplistically, almost comically chilidish access to dumb "Skills" at any level, so the end result is that something like a Fighter using his weapon to attack for 1.5x dmg and then not be able to attack the next turn has now become a Skill Tree Branch that will require the dum-dum player to grind endlessly against enemies in order to level up bit by bit, with every level up adding 1 sorry ass "skill point" until they finally, eventually hallelujah manage to get all 10 points required to unlock this amazing, fantastical ability of the Fighter !!!!! WOOOOOWWW!

in a real Wiz-clone blueprint DRPG, like for exmaple the Dark Spire on Nintendo DS, Fighters start with an almost identical ability and it's not part of a skill tree (there are none), it's that each class is actually unique and incredibly deep and well-designed, as opposed to EO classes which are absolutely competently designed, sure, but they are all MMO-knock offs that were designed with a single-minded purpose of taking every element from Wizardry blueprint and making it more "accessible" for "modern players". Hence skill trees.

- dungeon layout is mediocre at best.

even Courtier who loves EO freely admits they don't hold a candle to most other Wiz-clone crawlers in dungeon design. He did explain to me however that the majority of the enjoyment in conquering/clearing a floor in an EO game comes from dealing with the ever moving FOEs while discovering shortcuts and the like. He says it adds a layer of puzzle-solving to the floor clearing. I believe him, as I have experienced this thing he describes while playing eo 3, and more recently playing eo 2.

I call it "playing Pac-Man". oh noo don't let the ghosts getcha

- loot / and itemization in general, is once again deviation from Wiz-blueprint and instead...

they decided to utilize traditional japanese RPG dev itemization tactics such as:

1. loot/gear/etc is Gated. You must collect 10 donkey balls in order to unlock!

(this method of itemization is, frankly put, made for children. i am not joking or being disparaging: this is something video game designers do that comes from the origins of Casino Gaming and Game Theory in general. I recommend you google "casino game theory" and also google "game theory skinner box".)

2. utilizes inferior implementation of class-changing:

Again, deviating from Wiz-blueprint they decided to not do class-changing a la Wizardry and instead, ONCE AGAIN, utilized traditional Japanese RPG game dev tactics: making the player work like a dog so they can reward them with access to choosing a Sub-Class eventually. Sub-classes are COMPLETELY different design from traditional Wiz-clone class-changing.

Sub-classes are not bad, per se, but they offer way less complexity for the player to deal with because the player will always be able to have their cake and eat it too. Once again I must point out how this design element, sub-classes, along with everything else I mentioned and along with dozens of other stuff I have already previously detailed in long posts about this EXACT SAME subject are all with the unified ambition of the devs making an accessible, modern take on that old dungeon crawler genre's crusty gameplay.

to be fair: i enjoy EO. I am (somewhat) enjoying EO 2 right now (in between playing Elminage: Gothic, Elminage: Original, Wiz Gaiden 4 on SNES and also still playing/finishing Stranger of Sword City); and THE GAMES ARE GOOD. THEY. ARE. GOOD.

(Class of Heroes is an exercise in your ability to cope with traditional JRPG grinding/repetition/over-simplified game mechanics, however, and does not rise to the level of the EO games.)

it's just hilarious anyone would so extensively put down a superior formula and then immediately go and talk at length praising an inferior knock-off. <(' '<)

never change Roqua . keep on enjoying class of heroes 2 and let me know when you get stuck! sure is fun grinding 5 extra levels just so you can actually hit an enemy in a new area because in these new-fangled 'crawlers you like stuff like stats and weapon accuaracy and enemy armor class and all that HOT GARBAGE is absolutely meaningless, because everything is GATED!

EDIT: I would like to add that I know full well why roqua is saying that Elminage (and by extension then, all Wizardry games) are bad and it is because he is under the impression that things like badly designed dumb Quests and stupidly written NPCs are gameplay and that these things make-or-break the quality of an RPG. needless to say roqua is DEAD WRONG.

R00fles!

 

[Clockwork Knight]

 

[aweigh]

roqua knows i know that he is a real RPG man. unless of course he continues talking shit about elminage then it's plane tickets

 

[Courtier]

I could see how he'd prefer EO and CoH, EOIV is also probably the first thing I'd recommend somebody who is new to the genre and likes both party creation and story.

The dungeon doesn't have to be incredibly intricate, because everything still fits together to make a wholesome experience. The stuff about progression being gated is true but how much and whether it's even noticable depends on the game (kind of a platitude really, Wiz has ''gates'' in the form of difficult areas with better loot you need to be strong enough i.e. level a ton to even reach), in EO it is mostly just a way to get money that befits the game setting - as opposed to monsters carrying around coins, you sell their parts.

I've beaten all four main EO games and went on to the remakes and seldom had to grind for those material selling unlocks, you get them naturally across dungeon trips. I agree that CoH is somewhat simplified but it just has a really great setting and characters and retains enough of the original Wiz formula (way better than the PS3 Wizardries), I enjoyed both games a fuckton despite any criticism I could level.

Talking about grinding ''like a dog'' as though it's a bad thing, when that's what you do in pretty much any crawler and E: Gothic requires more of it than any other, you're throwing around wild exaggerations and trashing a skill system for being a skill system, judging the dungeons when you haven't even seen half of them or beaten any of the EOs (or CoH1/2 for that matter)?

You sound as though you're shitting on these games just because, or because it's Roqua (& probably vice versa). If he wants to trashtalk Elminage let him do so all he wants, like his opinion matters. But tastes differ and not everybody is a hardcore dungeonboy like you and I, no need to shit on lads for actually liking some crawlers for once

 

[Hirato]

Roqua
You/they should play Etrian Odyssey 4.
It's an absolutely fantastic game and it made me fall in love with blobbers.

Everything about it was very well done, except for that Echoing Library labyrinth that was utterly banal.

 

[Viata]

You talk shit on Elminage and aweigh go batshit insane after you.

 

[Roqua]

roqua knows i know that he is a real RPG man. unless of course he continues talking shit about elminage then it's plane tickets

Roqua
You/they should play Etrian Odyssey 4.
It's an absolutely fantastic game and it made me fall in love with blobbers.

Everything about it was very well done, except for that Echoing Library labyrinth that was utterly banal.

Roqua Generation Xth is PC-only(there is a 'remake' for Vita, but it's shit, or so I heard), but only the first one was translated. It's pretty good and above Elminage, imo. They are more plot-related, though. There is also Stranger in Sword Land from the same dev, also for pc(was released to consoles later). By content you mean more side-quests and whatnot? And what would you define a good chardev system? That may help me recommend good dungeon crawlers.

DOes generation xth or the Stranger in Sword city have active chardev? Or is it standard dungeon crawler retard you have zero choice or impact on anything chardev? I can't stand games that have the usual jrpg idiot formula of you have no choice in anything at level up besides changing classes or grinding out jobs.

What I mean by content is content - the stuff that takes thought and money and planning and takes a ton of time to implement. This is what makes rpgs different from dungeon crawlers. Dungeon crawlers are just grinding enemies and more dungeon. Rpgs give you short and long term goals, you interact with npcs, you do things, etc. Content.

And thank you guys for the advice and recommendations.

And Aweigh - yet again you prove you like games that require no thought. I did the first three of four levels of Elminage Gothic. It was not difficult. It was a boring grind for no reason at all. Why? Why would I just want to grind and grind and grind and have nothing to look forward to besides more dungeon?

And a well designed dungeon to me is short and sweet with shit to do and goals to complete. MMX was perfect in this regard. It had puzzles but they were not retarded or guess work, I figured out all the puzzles and all the riddles and had fun doing it. Compare this to the usual guess work with crazy tile hitting on multiple levels of a grind game and you can see why I like real crpgs like MMX and ToEE which have great dungeons, and dislike games like Elminage Gothic that have the very diffinition of convoluted ridiculous insane retard dungeons for idiots and monkey-people.

When I level up I want a million choices to make with huge opportunity costs. I don't want to read how some other dick head did it, I want to plan it all myself. Me versus the system. That is the fun for me. Seeing my build being realized, finally getting that ability I was building towards. Like in EO I am went for certain things that hurt my damage but helped my survivability and longevity, I almost have the medic TP regen thing, I am almost filled up with the xp increase for the bard guy, I have the hp regen for the war mage guy and protector.

This is what I love. I love intricate systems where I have control and tons of options. Not systems where I make almost no choices besides class changes once in a while. If the game levels up for you, the game sucks. That is a childrens game. Because children cannot think and do not like to make decisions since they will always gimp their characters. Guess what? You can't gimp them in your games because you don't do anything and make no chocies.

I really, really wish there was a decent party based crpg blobber with tons of classes and an intricate chardev system we could pvp in so I could destroy you and laugh at your sophomoric ability to build a party well. And I'll do it without ever once looking at a walkthrough or reading any advice from your betters (not my betters since I take advice from no one and still win like a fucking boss). I would just trounce on you and your party of preplanned monkeyfuckers with my superior party building and chargen skills, and counter all the monkey strategies your tiny dungeon crawler brain thinks are good while laughing at you. That would be awesome and I wouldn't have to read your crazy writings on why shit games are good and great games are shit because crpgs peaked in 1982 to you.

 

[Courtier]

E: Gothic is one of my favorite games of all time and the hundreds of hours I spent completing it were almost like a spiritual journey for me, but I think this guy and his freshly baked hot posts are funny

Seriously though most of the dudes that have talked shit about Elminage don't even like blobbers who cares

 

[Viata]

Yeah, E: Gothic is true to the formula of dungeon crawler. You either love the genre(and consequently the game) or not. Now, if you only like/enjoy, I can see why people don't like it. Still, it was the reason I made a steam account, first game I bought .

 

[Roqua]

E: Gothic is one of my favorite games of all time and the hundreds of hours I spent completing it were almost like a spiritual journey for me, but I think this guy and his freshly baked hot posts are funny

Seriously though most of the dudes that have talked shit about Elminage don't even like blobbers who cares

I love blobbers that are crpgs like Wiz 6-8, MMX, Wizzards & Warriors, Swords & Sorcerers, the RoA Trilogy, etc. I like crpgs. I like content. I dislike grind games with the only content of more dungeon. Whats next after more dungeon? More dungeon, and then some more. Convoluted, retarded, dungeons with absolutely nothing to do but grind.

Some people have attention surplus disorder and like stupid boring shit, like character development that consists of leveling up and that is it. I like complex and intricate systems requiring thought, foresight, planning, and some grey matter that works between your ears. I like paying money for games that a retard with some time couldn't make because it has no content other than pre-planned choiceless classes and these so called well designed dungeons of grinding.

Content costs money and requires a lot of work, so I can see why dungeon crawlers say fuck it and do not include any. Same goes for well designed chardev systems with lots of player choices and input and build possibilities.

Anyone, especially children, who like this Elminage Gothic shit need to go see their psychiatrist and ask to have their medications adjusted. Maybe try some coke or crystal meth and get your engine going at normal speed where you want games with a little more than killing mobs over and over and over again in your supposedly well designed dungeons of grinding and more dungeon.

 

[Viata]

I don't think you can shit on Elminage Gothic for its grind process while praising Class of Heroes, you know? Not saying the game is bad, I like it, but that is the most grinding blobber I have ever seen.

 

[aweigh]

NO VIATA NO.

YOU SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP US MEN ARE ARGUING ABOUT VIDEO GAMES OK NEXT WEEK PLANE TICKETS THEN PROBABLY MURDER COS FUCKING ELMINAGE MAN OMG

PEOPLE NOT LIKING SHIT IS FUCKING OFFENSIVE AND I WON'T FUCKING STAND FOR IT MOTHERFUCKING WORSE THAN APARTHEID IN THIS THREAD smh

 

[Courtier]

I like paying money for games that a retard with some time couldn't make because it has no content other than pre-planned choiceless classes and these so called well designed dungeons of grinding.

Then what are you doing in the Wizardry thread that centers around games where you kill mobs over and over in well designed dungeons and then go to another dungeon?

Anyone, especially children, who like this Elminage Gothic shit need to go see their psychiatrist and ask to have their medications adjusted. Maybe try some coke or crystal meth and get your engine going at normal speed where you want games with a little more than killing mobs over and over and over again in your supposedly well designed dungeons of grinding and more dungeon.

Everybody here likes Elminage. My dear chap, this is like walking into the IE thread and shouting at the top of your lungs ''everybody who likes Baldur's Gate is retarded, needs to go take some meth and go see their psychiatrist'' and then asking for recommendations for similar games

 

[aweigh]

Roqua

y'know, funny thing is i actually am "playing" EO 2 on DESMUME emulator, but it's an off-and-on sort of thing. I usually fire EO 2 up when I've grown really bored of an Elminage or Wizardry game or something "equivalent", like for example the recent Stranger of Sword City.

anyway my point is the following: EO is a great series of 'crawlers, but it is only great specifically because the development team / masterminds behind the genesis of the EO games wanted to continue foward in the japanese RPG space while still being able to do what he/they loved most, which were of course Wiz-clone 'crawlers from the West, or "The Americas" as some call the place.

They did a fantastic job of taking the superficial elements and layers and facets of the 80's dungeon crawling "blueprint", of which Wizardry is the primary author but by no means the only one; and those japs then decided to implement all of the "best" parts of modern-day japanese RPG development: stuff like removing Vancian spell casting ASAP (imagine the horor of a little jap kid firing EO up and running out of spells); making Character Classes fit traditional molds that are are not individualistic or organic but rather very specifically a transparent cog in the (admittedly incredibly competently made) wheel-works of the whole of the classes; things like enemies leaving behind tangible rewards that immediately reward the player and foster continued exploration were eliminated in favor of utilizing modern day japanese RPG design philosophies which, and I say this seriously, are basically an almost unrivaled and nigh-perfect distillation of Game Theory, and to be specific the type of game theory that can be studied about by going out to a library and asking for a 1950's book about how Casino Gaming works.

that is not a slight against the japs or against EO; they just do things differently. They like little baby micro-progressions, i.e. you need to grind all afternoon and wait until night-time in order for the chance of a rare night-time only enemy monster will appear so you can encounter it and beat it in order to be able to receive his animal parts, like for example the genitalia.

then the game will give you a message window advising you, sorry-- first it congratulates you because, YAY!!!!!, YOU DID ITT!!!, and then you are informed that you need 50 more monster dicks before being able to access the 2nd tier of leather armors.

R00fles!

 

[felipepepe]

Uh, I'm quite sure Etrian Odissey is also a pure dungeon crawler, with no story or exploration outside mazes... (except for those remakes with lame stories).

 

[Courtier]

that is not a slight against the japs or against EO; they just do things differently. They like little baby micro-progressions, i.e. you need to grind all afternoon and wait until night-time in order for the chance of a rare night-time only enemy monster will appear so you can encounter it and beat it in order to be able to receive his animal parts, like for example the genitalia.

then the game will give you a message window advising you, sorry-- first it congratulates you because, YAY!!!!!, YOU DID ITT!!!, and then you are informed that you need 50 more monster dicks before being able to access the 2nd tier of leather armors.

R00fles!

You mean that rare monster the player finds by chance without even realizing it (or needing to), which permanently unlocks an expensive and optional piece of gear in the shop, usually requiring only one rare material (which you just got) and at most a handful of common ones you already sold long ago? Unlocking of all the common new gear on the other hand, like those leather armours, happens naturally and organically as you make trips. If you still want stronger gear after that you can read the bestiary, talk to NPCs in the pub for advice from EO3 onwards, beat optional bosses or go back to stomp older ones if you'd like, they might have something you missed. It's great

pfffbuhihihi aweigh you're greatest bro but you and roqua are like two sides of the same faggot i'm dying here

 

[Viata]

Shh Courtier, let them men fight.

 

[Roqua]

I don't think you can shit on Elminage Gothic for its grind process while praising Class of Heroes, you know? Not saying the game is bad, I like it, but that is the most grinding blobber I have ever seen.

I stopped playing early on because it wont let me switch to samurai even though I should per the manual. This angers me and I stopped after maybe 3 or 4 hours in tops.

I've put maybe 10 in EO2.

I bought and started playing Stranger in Sword City, witch is pretty decent so far, but the chardev seems very lite. I like the difficulty and the low cash intake.

My original post was aimed at knucklehead Aweigh who I asked specifically for a dungeon crawler that a crpg fan would like who is into very heavy chardev and wants quests and shit. He recommended Elminage Gothic, the worst rpg ever made. This is like the Super Smash Bros of dungeon crawlers, harkening back to Zork and the Turtle program they used to have us do at school moving the turtle in different directions. He recommened that piece of dog shit knowing that there are lots of other dungeon crawlers that almost reach the greatness of actual good games like crpgs.

I want the closest thing to MMX and Wiz8. Not a worse version of a game that predates VCRs and Beta MAx.

Uh, I'm quite sure Etrian Odissey is also a pure dungeon crawler, with no story or exploration outside mazes... (except for those remakes with lame stories).

I've only played 2, and it has quests, missions, and stoies so far, as well as pretty involved chardev.

I like paying money for games that a retard with some time couldn't make because it has no content other than pre-planned choiceless classes and these so called well designed dungeons of grinding.

Then what are you doing in the Wizardry thread that centers around games where you kill mobs over and over in well designed dungeons and then go to another dungeon?

Anyone, especially children, who like this Elminage Gothic shit need to go see their psychiatrist and ask to have their medications adjusted. Maybe try some coke or crystal meth and get your engine going at normal speed where you want games with a little more than killing mobs over and over and over again in your supposedly well designed dungeons of grinding and more dungeon.

Everybody here likes Elminage. My dear chap, this is like walking into the IE thread and shouting at the top of your lungs ''everybody who likes Baldur's Gate is retarded, needs to go take some meth and go see their psychiatrist'' and then asking for recommendations for similar games

The IE games have the worst combat ever implemented in any game ever and because of this I dislike them all immensely. No game with endless hordes of combat can be good if the combat is click-and-watch, no input or thought needed bullshit for monkey retards. And yes I tell those fuck heads the same thing. The only game with decent RTwP combat ever made is Aarklash Legacy.

Lastly, see above as for the reason I posted. I am looking for a real blobber in the veins of Wiz8 and MMX, or the closest thing I can get to them from the eastern offerings.