Wizardry Long Live Wizardry! (And The All-New Games By Ex-Wizardry Developers)

[aweigh]

the thing that happened with EO 3 in my case is simply that when i started it i was fresh off a huge, huge wizardry high having just reached elminage gothic's ibag tower and running simultaneous parties of wizardries 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6 on the snes. while i have no problems whatsoever lumping both games together (elminage and EO) and i would recommend either as a prime crawler (personal preference going to the wizardry core mechanics in my case) to anyone who asked; the reality is that the EO series is really a thing all its own.

now i'm not informed enough on the subject because i hadn't played anything from japan in years before getting back into DS and PSP games/roms; when you compare the two styles, and i don't just mean the two games but the underlying nature of their actual GAMEPLAY you will find that there are many mutually exclusive philosophies in their design. wizardry at its core absoluely has to revolve around a very SPECIFIC kind of resource management and the vancian spell system is one of the most essential parts in those games' DNA. there are also other things that are different for what might seem arbitrary reasons to somone not exposed to the more japanese influences; a very quick example being the traditional free MP/resting stables in wiz/elminage/etc. They like to challenge you but also they know when to throw the player a soft-ball so they can assimilate the games psychological pressures better.

i apologize that i'm basically rambling wasn't planning on writing this type of stuff but another quick design dichotomy between the two is wiz-clones are 100% all about those sweet, sweet fixed monster encounters PAIRED ALONG with a moderately conserved "random-encounter rate". the famous monster-doors if you will. when you analyze that type of design goal and what it's supposed to accomplish among the many conclusions one can reach is the simple fact that the game itself psychologically educates and controls you the more you explore its dungeons. they are absolutely brutal at the beginning with basically your first fights really being possible party wipes and that's totes normal; but if you stick with it you get the rhythm of the mazes and (i don't know how to explain this better) eventually you WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHEN A MONSTER IS BEHIND A DOOR. i don't mention that as some sort of negative, on the contrary what i mean is that the the vancian spells combined with the hand-placed encounters serve not to complement but to COMPLETE the wizardry-style mazes.

this is a huge part of the reason i loved (love) elminage series so much because it gets allll of those things down PERFECTLY. it is as wizardry-bred as any fucking wiz game itself. it's more so than even any wiz after wiz5 and onwards. i'm gonna stop writing here because i don't really have any legitimate points to make other than these observations but one final thought i have on this matter is the itemization: EO-type games (and you know exactly what i mean by EO-type) usually boast a fucking overabundance of loot but 70 percent of it are usually either materials/parts you need to "collect" (that is a very strong key-word there; EO has "collecting" ingrained in it to the bone) and usually you have to collect x amount of y crap or kill z type of enemies in x area or whatever. JRPG-ish stuff. you rarely see that in the west except in an even WORSE and more degenerate form in western mmo's. to finish up and give an eo 3 example: one of the most addictive things about the continual plundering of the dungeon floors in wizardry and in elminage is that you ALWAYS end up looking foward to the next battle; every battle means a chest, and every chest means a random chance of a great loot drop. Wizardry (and Elminage) don't utilize loot-by-monster drops btw, and not many people realize that detail and that is HUGE.

wiz-games utilize loot-by-dungeon-floor, not by specific enemy types. that means that you always want to keep going, you always want to see how low you can go so you can reach the best loot in the best floors. and you don't have to worry about things like "oh i want this item very badly but i have to kill this stupid stupid tough enemy 25 times in a row at least for a chance of it dropping it!" -- that does not exist in the world of wizardry-clones. loot comes after the fight, IF you manage to succesfully survive the high-stakes bomb--under-the-table scene that is disarming every single chest. once you disarm the chest you get the loot and the loot is GLOORIOUSS.... or your ninja fucked up inspecting the chest and your party just got teleported into a wall. Anyone who doesn't find having STAKES LIKE THAT to be PERFECT instruments for great, enjoyably adrelanine-fueled dungeon-crawling looting and surviving by the skin of your teeth. these elements, these "high stakes" scenarios of which thre are many more examples than just the chests are absent from EO3. i was disappointed when i realized that you do not getactual loot or gear after winning fights.

in eo 3 you fight to collect an amount of specific enemies "droppings" if you will so you can then take back to town and hand them over (sell them, etc) to the shop so they can un-gate the loot tiers little by little, a dribble at a time. just enough to make it seem enticing but not really. games like EO series usually heavily front-load the player with a vast amount of collectibles they can get or need to get but it's always incredibly stretched out; like droplets of water on the tongue. this is a direct difference to the core of itemization in wiz-clones where (usually) the design goal that is the eventual conclusion of hand-placed enemy encounters and a loot-system that lives independently of the game's enemies but is instead directly tied to the exploration of the dungeons serves to deliver BIG STUFF, i.e. EPIC DROPS or finnaaallly getting that class change you've been levelling for; or whatever, my point is that the player works hard and consistently to get consistently random results that are skewed in the high-end of the scale. there really isn't much "mundane" stuff in wizardry games. there's very little filler. everytihng has to be worked for but the payoffs come big and are character/class-defining and thus gameplay changing.

in comparison i found the skill point systems in games like EO 3, DQ 9 and recently 7th Dragon to be polar opposite models that seem almost intentionally designed to string you along on very weak and very un-felt level-up consequences. you get 1 million times more "points" to mold your char in EO than in any Wiz game (in Wiz you have zero control over what a level up brings), and yet ironically you literally have to spend the equivalent of 10 or 15 levels' worth of points to achieve an ability/class/result/whatever comparable to something that might be just a "tier 2 floor drop" in a wiz-clone. too many points and yet you barely feel like the character you're deeloping is growing at all everything is so unbelievably GATED and controlled by the game that the illusion of wild player freedom seems to evaporate. i've just never found filling out a skill tree to be even remotely as comparably addictive or mechancally enjoyable as the many ways wiz-games revel in their levelling systems and their character development. getting levels in wiz is BIG. in EO 3 it means oh look, i get to put point 3/25 towards unlocking "shield bash".

it's an unbelievably drawn out process and sure, it's a legitimate itemization alternative to trapped-chests but IMO it's an abysmally inferior one. anyway i have of course a million more thoughts about the differences in styles between these two pseudo-genres but i'm just rambling at this point.

 

[Courtier]

Holy shit. Hold on I need a big mug of coffee before I read that

Edit: It was a really good read

I share your preference for the Wiz- or basically D&D-style leveling, where you don't have skillpoints to spend every level, but your THAC0 lowers and hits rise, spells are learned and you get an occasional special ability. Same for the loot system where you find heaps of unidentified artifacts that can make your day, instead of having to sell deer penises to a shop.

On the other hand I think the skillpoint system allows for just as much if not more variety in character building than multiclassing in Elminage - this is especially apparent once you unlock subclassing in EO, which allows you to level two classes at once with all their perks and abilities. I think that it's really flexible and indeed a thing all on its own.

You might enjoy the system a tad more after getting into the meat of it, because once you start to understand where to put those points, you can do some interesting stuff. But yeah, I just want more Elminage...

 

[aweigh]

yeah skill pt system can be done right. (just like any other system i suppose!)

i think the key is to keep it simple. cliche i know but it's painfully obvious the japs (and others) use it to pad out the running time of the game, so to speak. if every skill point is as mind-blowingly meaningful as say, when you finally get LOMILWA and you don't have to worry anymore about your light going out, then yeah, distribution of level up points in a granular fashion like so would be p. much the most open ended approach possible. the tricky part comes in deciding how many points do you get when you achieve X event while playing and and what can the player do with these progression-points once he has them and at what rate can he use them and etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

on the surface it seems like such a simple system doesn't it; level up get points put it into a predefined ability unlock. couldn't be simpler. but you know what's simpler? levelling up and learning the ability.

 

[aweigh]

oh i have no problems whatsoever with Etrian series. if i actually disliked/did not enjoy the time playing it i would not talk about the game at all. (unfortunately?) like two days ago i decided to sink in a 5-6 hour session and booted up 7th Dragon, and while i definitely enjoyed it a lot it occupied the exact same brain-places that the Etrian games do. lol they really ripped off EO.

EO handles their skill-point system way better though. 7th Dragon's ability lists look like an incromphensible untranslated moon rune. i need 8 chivalry and 3 medicine but chivalry ability is all the way on the very last page where you'd assume the later level abilities are yet it's a beginner one you saaay? ooohhhy ok well why if i need medicine WITH chivalry why is medicine all the way in the first page and not even categorized it's just there looking completely uninsteresting to my character who is a knight hence why he needs to unlock chialry 8! but that's silly anyone with half a brain would at least make an attempt at lumping together in some sort of categorical fashions two skill trees that compliment a core ability of the class! ohh.. wait..

i left it at the anzham kingdom spot. got bored.

 

[Courtier]

You're right, but there's one perk to this whole newfangled JRPG take on the old Wizardry formula: in Wizardry 1-3+5, every Fighter is functionally the same. He can wield any weapon equally well and the only things he can do are hit something or parry/defend. In say, 7th Dragon, your Fighter chooses to specialize in one of several weapon types, each with its own benefits and drawbacks, and can also level general skills to benefit the party. An analog to the general skills would be the EX skills in E: Gothic, which were great.

Besides moves like a hard hit that costs stamina or a row sweep, your 7D fighter can also do things like a combo attack with the Mage, who enchants their weapon before they swing. Then there are debuff attacks, and risky moves that leave an opening. It provides you with varied options, and you can pick and choose for every character. Though you could also say every skill tree is its own ''class'', and there are not nearly as many classes total as in Elminage. Ideal I think would be a balance of adding stuff like this to a game still thoroughly rooted in Wiz.

I especially like the idea of having some sort of improved party synergy as your characters work together like that. The Allied Actions in Forsaken Land and the Unity system in Generation Xth and CoH are good examples.

Edit: 7D production was headed by Kazuya Niinou, who also directed EO - hence the similarities.

 

[Hirato]

Etrian Odyssey 4 is an absolutely amazing game.
I can't really speak for EO2 and EO3 though.

I've played the remake of EO1, otherwise known as Etrian Odyssey Untold 1: The Millennium Girl, and honestly, it was kind of shit and has lot of annoying quirks.
Of particular note, there was a really boring quest that tasked you with staying in one dungeon level for the full duration of 3 days (it might've been 5, I'm about 60% sure it was 3), you couldn't leave at all. It easily takes half an hour for the time to pass if you manage to avoid all the random encounters by being smart and setting up a circular walk loop in the wyvern's room
And some abilities just work in really weird and downright stupid and frankly broken ways. For example, the medic class has a 'Delayed Heal' spell that is much more powerful and cost effective than their regular group heal. However this only activates at the start of the next turn, so if you beat the enemies in the same turn this was used, then your medic basically just wasted his TP.
The dungeons were also rather boring, each level basically had a single gimmick and they stretched it out to cover the entire mappable area, and the gimmick of course wore out its welcome long before you finished mapping it.
The dungeons also didn't have great loot. It was either random items (of which you'd only use a small subset of the restorative ones), plain useless grimoire stones, or weapons that dealt 1 damage per attack, but had a very high chance of inflicting a status effect - The most potent ones are probably those that inflict binds; I don't recall anything that inflicted death or petrification.
Also grimoire stones are shit, and almost useless unless you grind a hell of a lot, and even then you'd at best give a character either a backup healing skill or a debuff skill; the subclassing system they introduced in later games is far superior.

 

[Siveon]

I like EOU, but I can't argue about the grimoire stones. I'd take subclasses anyday. It's mostly just pray to the RNG gods or just use whatever is given to you. There's no real strategy to it. I think they only did that for 1 & 2 that didn't have a subclass system (someone correct me on that), but if they replace it for Etrian Odyssey Untold 3 I'm just not gonna bother.

And some abilities just work in really weird and downright stupid and frankly broken ways. For example, the medic class has a 'Delayed Heal' spell that is much more powerful and cost effective than their regular group heal. However this only activates at the start of the next turn, so if you beat the enemies in the same turn this was used, then your medic basically just wasted his TP.

Eh, that's not necessarily broken. Stupid, maybe, but the move was only really for boss-fights or FoE's anyway. I think a better example of some stupid moves would be that attack buffs don't stack. I recall that the Highlander class has his own move for bumping up his attack but another class can increase a row's attack, and one replaces the other. However, debuffs stack if they decrease separate things. Like this one hex move that brought down both types of defense, and the mages move which brings down elemental defense. That stacks, I think.

The dungeons were also rather boring, each level basically had a single gimmick and they stretched it out to cover the entire mappable area, and the gimmick of course wore out its welcome long before you finished mapping it.

The dungeons were hit and miss. But I think they gradually got better, and the last one was really the best one in my opinion. The worst were the first dungeon that just used FOEs a lot, and the second which was just damage tiles. I didn't think they really did much for them in the remake, so I'd give it a pass as being the first game in a line of many.

Of particular note, there was a really boring quest that tasked you with staying in one dungeon level for the full duration of 3 days (it might've been 5, I'm about 60% sure it was 3), you couldn't leave at all. It easily takes half an hour for the time to pass if you manage to avoid all the random encounters by being smart and setting up a circular walk loop in the wyvern's room

It was five, I think. I took that time to fully map out the dungeon but I guess if you already did that, that would be a little boring.

 

[Hirato]

And some abilities just work in really weird and downright stupid and frankly broken ways. For example, the medic class has a 'Delayed Heal' spell that is much more powerful and cost effective than their regular group heal. However this only activates at the start of the next turn, so if you beat the enemies in the same turn this was used, then your medic basically just wasted his TP.

Eh, that's not necessarily broken. Stupid, maybe, but the move was only really for boss-fights or FoE's anyway. I think a better example of some stupid moves would be that attack buffs don't stack. I recall that the Highlander class has his own move for bumping up his attack but another class can increase a row's attack, and one replaces the other. However, debuffs stack if they decrease separate things. Like this one hex move that brought down both types of defense, and the mages move which brings down elemental defense. That stacks, I think.

To add to that, I really like that buffs dispel debuffs, and vice versa. I do think it's a bit much that a debuff that lasts 3 turns dispells a buff that will last for the next 8, but it's a nice system.

The dungeons were also rather boring, each level basically had a single gimmick and they stretched it out to cover the entire mappable area, and the gimmick of course wore out its welcome long before you finished mapping it.

The dungeons were hit and miss. But I think they gradually got better, and the last one was really the best one in my opinion. The worst were the first dungeon that just used FOEs a lot, and the second which was just damage tiles. I didn't think they really did much for them in the remake, so I'd give it a pass as being the first game in a line of many.

The 4th stratum (the cavern levels 16-20) had a few floors I rather liked, like B16 which had all the movers on the ground.
For the most part the rest were just long twisting corridors with nothing much of interest to see.
The Claret hollows had some tough levels, but they were structurally quite simple and boring. B29F for example was only hard to map because you had a hard limit on map markers.

I also compared the maps from untold to the original. They preserved the themes of the levels, but they basically made every single big enough, or almost big enough to fill up the map screen at the bottom.

Of particular note, there was a really boring quest that tasked you with staying in one dungeon level for the full duration of 3 days (it might've been 5, I'm about 60% sure it was 3), you couldn't leave at all. It easily takes half an hour for the time to pass if you manage to avoid all the random encounters by being smart and setting up a circular walk loop in the wyvern's room

It was five, I think. I took that time to fully map out the dungeon but I guess if you already did that, that would be a little boring.

That quest triggered for me right as I was just about to return to town with the wyvern egg. This means I was limited to a very small section of the level, which consisted of a corridor, a healing room, the wyvern room, and a sealed off treasure room. Plus it doesn't take you anywhere near 5 in game days to map out an early level like B8F.

 

[Courtier]

You can simply drop and retake the quest whenever you want. You get to skip the evenings during the trial in the hamfisted storymode. I actually liked Grimoires for what they were, they were a decent substitute for subclassing since in 1 and 2 there was no such thing. The monster skills you can get from them are very strong, and being able to spread class skills around and create your own little ''subclass packages'' was alright. Saved skillpoints on gathering skills and (de)buffs, you can give a Dark Hunter a row-sweep move, skills like Roar combine well with the Hexer's word skills and so on. It also allows you to go without a medic, which would be unthinkable in 1.

You accumulate a huge amount of stones (far too many) over the course of the game, most of which are indeed trash. But I see them as an optional bonus, and you can ''turn them off'' completely by simply not having any equipped. Getting good ones is made far easier with the tea buff/hunting horns, unless you're trying to get king grimoires.

In 1 the skills were actually broken, but the difficulty much higher (unless you're playing on Expert in EOU). Going without Immunize in the postgame was impossible, and it was the most broken of all.

At least the labyrinth retained its length. In EOI the dungeon was 30 full levels. By the time the series reached IV, the total stage count barely reached 25 including mini-dungeons, with levels being smaller on average. I remember threads exploding with cries of ''casualization'' and sure enough, they added a literal casual mode. EOU became a thing and even got a sequel while EOV was thrown on the backburner indefinitely. Oh, and EOU2 introduced DLC. Loads of fucking DLC.

 

[TigerKnee]

while EOV was thrown on the backburner indefinitely.

They released a trailer recently

http://gamestalk.net/sq5/

 

[Courtier]

That trailer was uploaded Nov 2014

Although the article does say development has reached the final stages...

 

[aweigh]

i dove back into 7th dragon for a bit. reading that there is a skill reset item that can be bought gave me motivation to play it again. i looked up information on what skills actually do and which ones are traps and which ones are actually in-game useful and not just "theoretically useful"; knowing what does what such things as for example that the damage is calculated from all sources and they are individual: POW modifier + Weapon Skill modifier (ex. sword mastery tree) + the ATK % bonus from the skill utilized (if any is being used at all; ex. axe skill tree's purge skill) = damage dealt then multipled by a random fraction percentile.

some other interesting information that is not ever provided in-game such as:

- each point in a weapon's skill tree does indeed raise the ATK bonus modifier % just like it says in the description but under the hood it turns out the return on your investment differs greatly from weapon-to-weapon skill tree. some receive huge gains and some not so much. more importantly than that is the fact that the biggest gains in % bonus come from the last half of the skill-tree's points. this is not documented in the game or in the manual either. when the skill demands 2 points instead of 1 it also raises the return on investment for you... usually. As with many other games that utilize skill trees (or Perks if you want, i am not anti-japan desu desu ne) there be TRAPS. and quite a few of them it turns out. i fell into one such trap with my axe warrior by maxing out axe heavy crash skill instead of axe purge skill: the purge skill uses the same amount of MANA and does almost 40% more damage by the time both are at level 10. there is absolutely no way to know this without resorting to forums and wikis. this is BAD GAME, BAD. NO TREAT.

- enemy magic attacks roll versus character's physical defense AND their magical defense. however the phys. def. portion is only around 30 percent, so it is still worth pumping INT just for protection against elemental breath attacks and such.

- every weapon skill tree features at least one straightfoward skill move that is used for attacking: ex. axe purge skill / heavy crash; sword's keen edge or whatever (haven't really studied the sword trees at all), etc. HOWEVER (!) off on the third page of the skill trees tucked away and in no way at all intuitively positioned for a beginning player with no meta-knowledge are identical-in-function attack skills that don't require having put points into the weapon's skill tree. one glorious example is the samurai and his styles. all the way over at the last page of his skill trees is one called Ninonun or some shit like that that simply says "deals medium damage to one foe" and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE. it would take a fucking nostradamus to know that if you want your samurai to be able to use a weapon skill attack WITHOUT HAVING TO SPEND A TURN activating a style then the samurai should max out THAT ONE.

- all of the % information regarding exactly how much damage is meant by the descriptions that say "deals light damage" or "deals medium damage" and the like are completely hidden from the player. coupled with the fact that the % increases are also hidden from the player as well there is no way to know what is good for what situation or desired play style. FOR EXAMPLE: the knight's shieldbearer skill tree says in the description that it raises the % bonus modifier to DEF from Shields. great. no problem. what it doesn't mention is that it uses the same basic formula as all other skill trees that raise ATK/DEF: every point brings around 2-4 % increase, with the last half of the skill tree points bumping up to 5-10% increases. what's the problem?

unlike weapons which have numbers like 60 ATK, or more, shields are few and far between and only add about 2-10 (?) extra DEF. that is great because it's basically almost as good as the knight having 2 sets of Armor equipped. WRONG. that is bad because it means the % increase from shieldbearer is played off a very low number and thus it relegates the shieldbearer's DEF bonus to shields utterly useless and the entire skill tree almost a trap. (you have to put a lot of pts into shieldbearer to max out "guard front-row" which is the only good skill in that tree).

anyway, game's alright i spose. good timewaster.

 

[Comte]

Ok I want to start playing Wizardry 1 SNES version what type of party should I make? Any tips for a Wizardry beginner?

 

[Crooked Bee]

Ok I want to start playing Wizardry 1 SNES version what type of party should I make? Any tips for a Wizardry beginner?

Start with the basic classes, then switch as appropriate. Early game is one hit kill-heavy (significantly more so than in later Wiz clones), so make sure your front line is sturdy enough. Thief can be in the front line since he can hide in the shadows. You definitely need at least 1-2 Fighters, a Thief, a Priest, and a Mage. Bishop is optional but he can identify items, which really comes in handy unless you feel like bringing your haul to the town every time you want your stuff identified. (The downside is that Bishop has a worse progression curve.)

For my LP, I went with two Dwarven fighters, a Hobbit thief, and three Elves: a Priest, a Bishop, and a Mage.

 

[Viata]

The manual is pretty good for beginners, too.

 

[aweigh]

i think a very well rounded party that makes the beginning much easier is:

fighter
fighter
fighter
priest
mage
mage

let me explain. the first thing you have to realize is that the thief class is absolutely useless aside from their ability to discern traps and pick the locks of trapped chests. that's it and nothing more. now that's still VERY valuable, and later on in the mid-game and the end-game portions their ability to hide in shadows is a LIFESAVER during difficult battles. (when a Thief hides he basically turns magically invisible for all intents and purposes and cannot be targeted for any reason but can still attack; and some of the attacks can randomly result as sneak attacks).

use 3xfighters/priest/2xmage to level up quickly in the first floor by hacking at anything that moves with your 3 fighters and sleeping every enemy in every encounter using your 2 mages. in every fight that is the strategy for the first floor. it is an unbeatable strategy in the first floor. it is perfect.

once they're comfortable at levels 4-5 or so, feel free to change one of the fighters class to Thief, level him up real quick which will be easy since thief class has the fastest XP growth of all the classes and THEN proceed to dungeon floor 2. it is only then that enemy chests even remotely begin to matter.

first floor chests contain mundane crap, junk basically. much better to use that thief slot on a third fighter, and then change him to a thief when you're all set.

once the change is made you move the priest to the front row and the new Thief takes the priests place in the back row. wizardry priests are serious business and can wear some great metal armors and even shields. after the two fighters the priest will have the second lowest AC.

edit: SUPER DUPER UBER IMPORTANT: in char-creation your one and only priority is getting at the very least a "roll" of 10 bonus pts or more, don't accept anything less than 10, and you pump VITALITY in every single character. the first levels can be absolutely BRUTAL due to low HP; vitality is so important for HP growth, for resistances, and for not turning to ashes when being resurrected. i usually pump every single bonus point in the 3 fighters into VIT, if there's left over they go into STR, then the Priest i put half the bonus points into VIT and half into PIETY, and the mages half the bonus points into VIT and half into INT.

 

[aweigh]

also remember that if you don't like your level up bonuses when you go rest at the inn you can reload your save game and rest again and get a completely different result. it is entirely up to you how willing you are to keep reloading until you get a satisfactory level up.

btw VIT score also has a hand in determining stat raises and stat decrease during level up.

 

[Courtier]

I've been playing Labyrinth of Lost Souls on the PS3. Some factoids and impressions: You only have 10 portraits to choose from (one for each race/gender). They blink and have expressions and shit. Every one of them has their own unique voice, and if it's your first character, a different palette+personality/backstory (e.g. the female elf is always a mega jew, the male human wants to live up to his family name etc).

Your MC engages in dialogue throughout the story, which changes depending on your character choice. Everybody is voiced in grorious nihongo, and on the title screen you are greeted by one of them going WIZARUDORY RENAISSANCU. The NPCs are pretty charming too.



I'm around level 16 now, and so far it feels nicely familiar. Unlike Forsaken Land, combat is fast and enemies are good old sprites. On the first floor of the dungeon of trials encounters include ye olde creeping coins, LV 5 orcs who can oneshot characters with a lucky roll, and kobolds that summon buddies. I went a couple floors deeper in a different maze, and got smashed by elemental giants and overleveled vorpal bunnies. Then came lords that simply will not die, and ninjas that eviscerate the back row dealing twice your max HP in damage per hit.

There's autocombat (wiggle analog stick+X, non-obvious unless you read the instructions). You need to buy a map before heading out, and find maps for deeper floors that aren't sold in the shop (or use map spell). Environments are pretty sleek looking and quite dark, making the light spell actually useful. Labyrinths have way too many goddamn switches and gates. There's eight classes. Levelups are instantaneous after combat without need for inn stays, which is kind of cheap casualshit, but cuts down on backtracking. You can donate to the temple. In true Wiz tradition you can still get comfy and sleep in the stables.

Then there's some interesting things like a trading system that allows you to swap gear with random NPC adventurers, and the storehouse/characters in reserve being shared between all your saves, so you can go through the story for each of the MCs while keeping your gear and levels.

I give this vidcon a out of 5

 

[aweigh]

sounds good!

 

[aweigh]

4th floor over and done with. Fuck you Wizardry.

 

[Siveon]

For the love of god, man, invest in some graph paper. My eyes are bleeding.

But that is awesome. I just can't imagine keeping track of it all.

 

[aweigh]

looks like fucking hogwarts

 

[Viata]

Graph paper, man. It's easier to map a dungeon and way better to do so.

 

[aweigh]

i dunno there's just something freeing. chaotic. i'm chaotic good map drawer. going out of my way to get graph paper and then while playing filling in the squares real pro-like just don't appeal to me man.

i'm a loner dottie. a rebel.

i especially like how i begin to create the rooms and the hallways in the blank sheet of paper and in my mind i theorize what direction the "entrance" is and from what part of the paper i should start building: upwards, or leave room to the side. i mentally check against where the exit to the current floor was positioned in the previous one and imagine a spatial conection.

then as i draw it over and over the rooms and hallways slowly start to align and start falling into place. what earlier seemed like it could not possibly be shaped like thus, or this couldn't possibly connect to here; suddenly it does and it's great!

i finish with a very nice grounding on the map/floor. i have those floors memorized.

 

[aweigh]

uhhh. i just got wrecked by a dragon. or something. i finally finished the torture chamber that was the 4th floor (which is two floors in one; it can only be solved by going down to the 2nd floor and doing some shit there that you can't do when you normally first explore the 2nd floor; then returning to the 4th floor and doing some shit that you can only do after the shit you just did on the 2nd floor that you could only do if you have already cleared it normally and anyway) -- i find stairs that lead me to what i assume is the 5th floor

it looks awesome! it's all tinted blue and the music sounds excellently creepy and distorted. i immediately do not feel "at ease". i explore some random rooms and find a ladder that takes me down a floor. cool, let's try that. NOPE, booming narrator-god voice says that "You are forbidden from this place! Begone!", and warps me to town. Load save-state. I ignore that ladder and open another door and i run into this guy:



who was gracious enough to foot the bill for our entire funeral home package: