1eyedking Long-winded dialogues suck

[Darth Roxor]

AoD is generally 50/50. It's ok when you meet another incarnation of Vault Dweller that calls you a dumbshit, but talks of alien demon-gods from another dimension spiral almost into self-parody. There's also stuff like people giving you their abysmally predictable life stories.

 

[Cadmus]

AoD is generally 50/50. It's ok when you meet another incarnation of Vault Dweller that calls you a dumbshit, but talks of alien demon-gods from another dimension spiral almost into self-parody. There's also stuff like people giving you their abysmally predictable life stories.

You get SP or reputation for listening to the madness of the preaching folk, haha.
And they are told from an ingame character's point of view which allows for them to sound stupid and your character also remarks on it so I think it's fine.

 

[Shammy]

For me, AoD gets a pass on this, because try "showing, not telling" with a 2004 graphics engine and miniature models, and i doubt you'll get far. I think they realize that obstacle and are trying to show their characters through their portraits, and the portraits are really good. The 2D art in general is pretty good in this game, pity that 3D is cheaper.

Yeah I do gotta hand it to the devs, their portraits are really nicely done. Still, they can show through actions and environmental design, the latter of which they already did to a fine extent. Don't tell me someone is cold and calculating, show me why!

 

[Neanderthal]

I know a lot o folk say Bioware are good at writing but i've always thought they were a bit shit in detail, for instance all way through that DA2 we're told that bird Alveline is strong and scary yet she's shit at her job judging by all bandits around, needs her fucking hand holding when trying to fuck a bloke, and is always coming to protagonist instead o sorting her own shit out. What we're shown is exact opposite o what we're told. Main plot is similar crap, you have to play an unmotivated loser who just does what he's told, never gets off his arse to pursue his own shit and does stupid things like go down Dark Roads when he's just gathered a load of money and proved that there's a fortune to earn in that dead city he's in, or do shit for his loser family who he can't even talk to and yet is supposed to be so emotionally connected to, despite fact that we know fuck all about the useless cunts.

Plus they always rely on false choices and but thou must, it's like you're not playing a game but watching the dev play it, no fucking point. ME2 was spoiled because I was funneled into working with Cerberus, my renegade Shepard would have put a bullet through arsey and borings head and flown back to alliance in their ship.

And i'm not even gonna talk about that retarded schoolboy humour they use, ooh did you lick a lampost in winter, that's so naughty squee hee hee. No you suck a cock you fucking virgin twat, in fact you suck every cock you can find, floss wi pubes and gargle wi jizzum. Cheesy shit.

Nice rant if I say so mesen, feel much better now.

 

[eremita]

Mediocre content, sure. But the writer's skill is fucking great. Really suits the CRPG genre and every developer should take notes.

Hint: If you write a DIALOGUE-heavy game, you better make those DIALOGUES feel natural, like an actual conversation between people, especially strangers. Also the description should suit the momentum of dynamic conversation as well- if you're trying to persuade someone or just got ambushed in a room, verbose description is fucking stupid. How much do you notice in 5 seconds/while passing through? How much do you care? Lot of games fail at this, but not SR. The description always felt right according to the situation. And the dialogues felt like dialogues between two individuals. Again, we're not reading books, but playing games.

 

[Owlish]

Mediocre content, sure. But the writer's skill is fucking great. Really suits the CRPG genre and every developer should take notes.

Agree to disagree

 

[Old One]

West of House

You are standing in an open field west of a white house, with a boarded front door.

There is a small mailbox here.

 

[Bubbles]

Does the field have a boarded front door or the house? Or is the door in your inventory? Sloppy, sloppy.

 

[Copper]

Surprised nobody's touched on theme yet. That's the critical issue with a lot of 'info-dump' dialogue - it does nothing to advance the game's narrative themes, or does it poorly.

 

[No Great Name]

Does the field have a boarded front door or the house? Or is the door in your inventory? Sloppy, sloppy.

Sounds like you tried to throw the leaflet at yourself.

 

[Alex]

(...snip)
But on the other hand, to take two games close to the above ones' technical conventions that I think hit the sweet spot between stupidity and cleverness, brevity and verbosity, it would be Kotor2 (for Dragon Age) and Alpha Protocol (for Mass Effect). Truly, MCA is our lord and saviour as always.
(snip...)

Well, I think Alpha Protocol could have been a better game by being a bit more concise. Heck, it could be summed up in a single image. Maybe something like:

 

[Xathrodox86]

Couldn't agree more. Nothing to break the intense mood of a dungeon crawl, like a good exposition dump on 4 pages of text.

 

[Mozg]

AoD has an interesting angle where you aren't supposed to be empathizing with the PC too much. They feel more like a character in one of the modern bastard TV shows like The Sopranos, where no one would cry if one bastard gets killed and the show switches to a different character's point of view (and in fact that effectively happens all the time in AoD as you go through different playthroughs crossing through the plots and you see/kill characters playing the same parts your past "selves" did). The stuff where you get omnipotent narration about NPCs is part of that.

 

[dragonul09]

AoD has an interesting angle where you aren't supposed to be empathizing with the PC too much. They feel more like a character in one of the modern bastard TV shows like The Sopranos, where no one would cry if one bastard gets killed and the show switches to a different character's point of view (and in fact that effectively happens all the time in AoD as you go through different playthroughs crossing through the plots and you see/kill characters playing the same parts your past "selves" did). The stuff where you get omnipotent narration about NPCs is part of that.

In AoD if you chose the diplomatic route ,you are the ultimate ass kisser,at least that were my options.Of course you have the option to betray someone but at the cost of kissing someone else's ass and that's why i would never pick the diplomatic route,ever.
And you just can't empathize with an ass kisser...

 

[AwesomeButton]

AoD has an interesting angle where you aren't supposed to be empathizing with the PC too much. They feel more like a character in one of the modern bastard TV shows like The Sopranos, where no one would cry if one bastard gets killed and the show switches to a different character's point of view (and in fact that effectively happens all the time in AoD as you go through different playthroughs crossing through the plots and you see/kill characters playing the same parts your past "selves" did). The stuff where you get omnipotent narration about NPCs is part of that.

The main character being of insignificant background (not the "Chosen one") gives a lot more freedom to the writing/story people to come up with surprising twists. With a typical fantasy hero character, you're more or less stuck within a couple of cliched plotlines and everything is predictable. One of the biggest pros of AoD is its unpredictability imo. Some people react bad to this because their expectations were for a plot where they defeat progressively grander enemies, working their way towards "the Archdemon" or whatever. But I actually have fun watching my character fail or be ridiculed by an NPC when he fails some stat check.

 

[Cyberarmy]

I like to read.

 

[Owlish]

I like to read.

"One can never read too little of bad, or too much of good books: bad books are intellectual poison; they destroy the mind.
In order to read what is good one must make it a condition never to read what is bad; for life is short, and both time and strength limited." - Arthur Schopenhauer

Owned, nagger.

 

[Copper]

Sounds more like a critical elite trying to justify its existence. Although I do agree, with a caveat of too much. If you read too much David Eddings or Terry Goodkind, your senses can be dulled enough to say 'I know what I like, stop being such a snob.'

 

[Mareus]

Excellent topic! First of all, reading Codex today is even more deppressing than reading it 7-8 years ago. It seems that the only type of people RPG Codex manages to attract these days are people who forgot how to enjoy games. Take this as you will, but I actually enjoyed W2, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun: Dragonfall, and majority of these new titles that are reviving a dead genre. Are they good as old classics? Most of them fall a bit short, but they are definately a step in the right direction.

However, with that being said,.. I really dislike the writing in Shadowrun: Hong Kong. Not only is it long winded, but it just feels like rushed filler content. In fact the whole goddamn game feels rushed and it is nowhere near as good as Dragonfall. But what completely kills the game for me are the dialoges. Jesus f.. Christ... those NPCs just won't shut the fuck up, and when they talk, its like reading some fan fiction... Its cringe worthy. I don't know if they changed the writer, or what the fuck happened, but its horrible.

And this comes from someone who actually likes the writing in these new games. I don't agree that the writing in W2, PoE, etc is as horrible as some people here seem to suggestl. Yes, it lacks style and quality present in books, but as far as games go... its decent. Hong Kong however... It totally killed the game for me.

 

[Infinitron]

 

[Excidium II]

Trim your goddamn writing.

 

[Alex]

@GavinEtc But what if a character is specifically supposed to be verbose an purple as hell(snip...)

Then you make sure he is killable. Even better if everyone else in the game is too as well.

 

[Duckard]

It's about striking a balance between brevity and flavour. See Dark Sun: Shattered Lands for a game that did it right.

And this comes from someone who actually likes the writing in these new games. I don't agree that the writing in W2, PoE, etc is as horrible as some people here seem to suggestl. Yes, it lacks style and quality present in books, but as far as games go... its decent. Hong Kong however... It totally killed the game for me.

First, I pretty much like all the games in the recent "revival" because I'm a dirty casual. I certainly don't think the writing is terrible. That said, I do think that in a lot of games, the writing is not consistently good, yet is present in excessive quantities. For example, Pillars of Eternity occasionally feels like a slog because there are sections where mediocre writing is combined with mediocre gameplay.

I realize that you can skip everything and be just fine, but a little flavour makes things much more interesting. I just don't want to read 2 paragraphs for something that should have taken 2 lines to convey.

 

[Johannes]

The main character being of insignificant background (not the "Chosen one") gives a lot more freedom to the writing/story people to come up with surprising twists. With a typical fantasy hero character, you're more or less stuck within a couple of cliched plotlines and everything is predictable. One of the biggest pros of AoD is its unpredictability imo. Some people react bad to this because their expectations were for a plot where they defeat progressively grander enemies, working their way towards "the Archdemon" or whatever. But I actually have fun watching my character fail or be ridiculed by an NPC when he fails some stat check.

Except you do work your way towards that in AoD, almost all playthroughs end up meeting God. Maybe you're not a chosen one by prophecy (except well, Antidas asks you to fulfil a prophecy), but the end result is exactly the same.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Except you do work your way towards that in AoD, almost all playthroughs end up meeting God. Maybe you're not a chosen one by prophecy (except well, Antidas asks you to fulfil a prophecy), but the end result is exactly the same.

With one (and a half) playthrough, I can't comment much on that yet. But what's missing in AoD, and I didn't describe it in the post you quoted, is the world constantly railroading the player's character towards being "the protagonist" needed by the storywriter, in the way this is done in the BG games or in the Dragon Age series. You know what I mean - how everyone comments on "your unique heritage" or refers to you as "the warden", "the watcher", "the champion", "the inquisitor", etc. There is never any of that in AoD.

You may end up meeting "God", but you get a choice in how you will react to what he offers. And you are not limited to the "typical fantasy hero character" reactions. That's my argument - unpredictability is present in AoD until the end. Even if you know you're meeting God, you don't know in advance what options will be open to your particular character and what will follow if you choose one you haven't chosen in a previous playthrough. I think it's very well thought-out.