Game News Looks like Pillars of Eternity 2 is going to be officially announced soon

[Roguey]

Oh really? Since I can safely assume you never even got close to this game, I'm curious what did you google to get to the conclusion that it has enough roleplaying to satisfy Sawyer.

You know, all these clueless "woulds" are getting really old, at some point it would be nice if you actually had anything to backup your trolling besides google searches.

And stop lying. He clearly said RPGs are defined by what the mass market says. We're not talking about whatever the fuck he thinks, if he can think above mass market at all.

Edit: Yes, Infinitron, you disagree with a post that has nothing really to agree or disagree with. Instead of being a cuck, if you don't like what I said, go with the :retadred: rating like a real man. Sorry if I offended the god of boring games and shit systems again.

The Wikipedia page of course.

The game is notable for featuring an early example of a well developed diplomacy mechanic. It features multiple competing factions with different interests in the world of Guardia. The player may engage in diplomacy when key NPCs of the factions are encountered, and may attempt to bribery, peaceful negotiations, or threaten force.[4] It is also an early game to feature NPC competition with the player; as time progresses NPCs may beat the player to obtaining certain quest items, forcing the player to change their priorities.[5] It was also the first game in the Wizardry series to feature 8-bit VGA color graphics.
...
As there are three endings to Bane of the Cosmic Forge, there are four beginnings to Crusaders of the Dark Savant (one for each of the endings from the previous game, and a fourth for parties who are starting fresh).
...
Whatever the initial circumstances of the party's arrival on Guardia, they are free to make or break alliances as they see fit. For example, a party initially aligned with the Savant and the T'Rang are fully capable of turning on them, with no repercussions in finishing the game. In fact, it is possible to either befriend or make enemies of every nation on the planet, and still be able to complete the main quest. The main plot involves the party's quest to find the resting place of the Astral Dominae, the greatest artifact ever created by the god Phoonzang. There are four distinct endings; each of these endings can then be imported as savegame files to Wizardry 8, the final chapter of the Dark Savant trilogy, which in turn has its own set of five beginnings.

Role playing.

 

[Lurker King]

Darklands is not a hard game per se or even a complicated one, it just requires you to have a strong sense of its systems, understanding it and then applying them.

I don’t think you are really appreciating how challenging is nowadays the need to have a strong sense of a system, even a mildly complex one. Just the fact that you can’t take anything for granted and have no handholding already makes them much harder than recent games. I’m talking about the number of mechanics and the amount of information you need to acquire in order to enjoy the game properly. The better is the cRPG, the more likely you end up reading manuals. Really, it’s a completely different world and it's the main reason why these games are mostly ignored by newcomers.

He clearly said RPGs are defined by what the mass market says.

Whoa! Sawyer said that!!?? He is even dumber than I thought! Ha!

 

[vortex]

But, mass market did shape nature of RPGs after Fallout, P:T, BG and IWD. And is doing so now. There weren't noticable 2d isometric hand drawn cRPGs since as far I recall. With Shadowrun Returns and Pillars that changed slightly.

 

[Lurker King]

Well, that can be interpreted in many ways. In one sense, the mass-market changes the expectations from casual gamers, but that is completely irrelevant for any cRPG connoisseur worthy of its salt. What a casual (did I type the word right?) thinks about cRPGs is completely irrelevant. In another, stronger sense, by changing the expectations from causal gamers they change the culture of cRPGs. Well, this is also false. You are not really affecting the nature of cRPGs. You are just expanding the definition to the point that it doesn’t mean anything because you only care about profits. But hey, since Sawyer said that, this must be true, right? You couldn't make that stuff up. You guys crack me up. It's too good to be true.

 

[Lurker King]

That's Sandy Petersen. He also made some of the least-polished levels for Doom and Quake so he better watch where he throws those stones.

Oh my God, thank you so much, Roguey. I can't stress enough how important is for us to know what an obscure developer that worked on Doom is saying. Really, it’s not as if he was just a person that needs to present arguments like the rest of fucking humanity.

 

[Roguey]

Oh my God, thank you so much, Roguey. I can't stress enough how important is for us to know what an obscure developer that worked on Doom is saying. Really, it’s not as if he was just a person that needs to present arguments like the rest of fucking humanity.

This is some high grade autism right here, I'll try to break down the joke.

a) guy who worked on Darklands claims the lead designer didn't understand what fun was
b) Josh Sawyer is a lead designer; his detractors claim he doesn't understand what fun is
c) Darklands is one of Josh Sawyer's favorite games
d) It's entirely possible one day some Obsidian developer might say in response to the question "What is the worst game you have ever taken part in making? Why was it bad?" "Pillars of Eternity. It had two big strikes against it; the lead designer had no idea of what makes a game fun, and management insisted on releasing it in a pre-alpha stage." Chris Avellone's already halfway there.

 

[Fenix]

And... what the point in this joke?
Like if it proves something?

 

[Prime Junta]

And... what the point in this joke?
Like if it proves something?

The joke's on you, friend.

 

[Lurker King]

This is some high grade autism right here, I'll try to break down the joke.

Well, but that is my point, Roguey. Despite the coincidences, who cares? The only thing that matter is what makes a cRPG fun, and what arguments Sandy Petersen, Chris Avellone or any other person have to think that a particular game is fun or not, i.e., game design talk. The rest is IRRELEVANT GOSSIP, TRIVIA, or both. The attempts to establish patterns involving trivia about known developers have ZERO COGNITIVE RELEVANCE.

 

[Roguey]

The rest is IRRELEVANT GOSSIP, TRIVIA, or both.

Jokes you might say.

 

[Bohrain]

If they don't use first draft writing and manage to improve the systems more than fuck them up further maybe this'll be an okay game.

 

[Invictus]

I don’t understand the way you think, Invictus. You hate Sawyer’s design beliefs and are here for Grimoire, but yet you enjoy PoE. How come? The character building and itemization is bland. The encounter design is awful. We know the game was rushed. The only thing good about it are the graphics, which are great. But if we are going down that road, you could just as well be playing Skyrim. It makes no difference. Player’s indulgent attitude towards these games is the reason why they end up as classics in the top list and create a future generation of ignorants. You are literally lowering your standards in order to have some new to play, but then complain that you don’t have good games, this or that. Either you stick up to your standards and be coherent, or you stop the pretense of caring about game design at all.

What I meant Lurker King is that despite all of his faggotry of trying to suck all the fun from Pillars with his balance, the game CAN be exploited and its current 3.0 is a very passable IE pastiche which can be fun in the same way a Jason Statham movie can be entertaining
Is it an old time great? No fucking way
Is it as bad as I originally thought? No
Will Sawyer actually learn from his mistakes and make a better game in the sequel? That is the question here... all the signs sadly point to NO because most of these lead designers dont have the humility to look at someone's else designs and say "hey I could use some of that"; look at Sven or even Fargo's approach... they listened to their fans and during the actual early access and their games were better because of it.
The sequels of these games will arguably be better (especially D:OS2) because they are trying to address the complaints and weaknesses
In the case of Wasteland 2 the ugly graphics and lackluster start of the game in Arizona
In the case of Divinity the over the too tongue in cheek narrative and dialogue, plus going a bit deeper on the combat system
I see none of that capacity to accept mistakes and learn from them from Sawyer and now that Avellone is gone he has literally no one to stand up to him at all so he will pretty much do a "bigger better" Pillars 2

 

[Joni Odin von Hassenstein]

Most RPG fans suck at playing them. People who are genuinely good at games and genuinely want challenges gravitate towards RTS, 4x, simulation, or twitch of any flavour. Or various competitive multiplayer shit ofc.

This is true of Codexians too, just look at the list of Codex favourites. Most of 'em are piss easy, and most of the ones that aren't become so once you've discovered a couple of trivial exploits.

Well, as far as I'm concerned you're actually right.
I'm rather shit at playing gaems, which might have to do with me role-playing heavily while trying to somewhat ignore exploits, meta-gaming etc. *autismintensifies*
For me that's the whole point of playing RPG's, and I'm really not in it for "teh challenge".

 

[2house2fly]

In the case of Wasteland 2 the ugly graphics and lackluster start of the game in Arizona
In the case of Divinity the over the too tongue in cheek narrative and dialogue, plus going a bit deeper on the combat system
I see none of that capacity to accept mistakes and learn from them from Sawyer and now that Avellone is gone he has literally no one to stand up to him at all so he will pretty much do a "bigger better" Pillars 2

The expansion was pretty much universally regarded as improving on the main game, so unless you believe Sawyer wasn't involved or that the designers somehow sneaked fun in despite his watchful eye, there's your capacity to accept mistakes and learn from them.

 

[Invictus]

In the case of Wasteland 2 the ugly graphics and lackluster start of the game in Arizona
In the case of Divinity the over the too tongue in cheek narrative and dialogue, plus going a bit deeper on the combat system
I see none of that capacity to accept mistakes and learn from them from Sawyer and now that Avellone is gone he has literally no one to stand up to him at all so he will pretty much do a "bigger better" Pillars 2

The expansion was pretty much universally regarded as improving on the main game, so unless you believe Sawyer wasn't involved or that the designers somehow sneaked fun in despite his watchful eye, there's your capacity to accept mistakes and learn from them.

Yeah it is an improvement on the narrative and design, no doubt about it...but the combat system, shitty items and "balanced" character development remained the same and there where the biggest questions lie; will it be a bigger better more polished version of the 3.0 Pillars and the White March?
Or will he take some risks, have some reactivity, heavily tweak his combat systems?

 

[Kem0sabe]

Darklands is not a hard game per se or even a complicated one, it just requires you to have a strong sense of its systems, understanding it and then applying them. If you dont want to have a high level artificer for example you can make do with eater water for locks which you can make yourself or buy from the local alquemists
The combat is simplistic but fun, the narrative is surprisingly light and it open world structure let you grow at your own pace and even get creative like making new members to substitute your older characters.
It is ultimately a game that requires patience and diligence but in no way is is comblicated, hard or anything remotely not fun

That is why I question Sawyer's supposed love for the game, that allows you to mini max a lot but also offers clear better options for its clases and systems without his sacred "balance"
For example moving to Nuremberg straight away to start the game is a very good choice for making local rep and buying top quality materials, buying short swords and maces for everybody to start off is very efficient but getting a military hammer is even more effective if you rather not micromanage every combat encounter
Frankly I saw nothing of that from him in his playthoughs he doesnt seem like a veteran of the gane as he claims

He fantasizes about it because he is obsessed with Germanic culture.

 

[Rivmusique]

Items definitely did change a lot for TWM. Lots of unique and active effect/abilities, less stuff that you can enchant yourself and properties that show up on various unrelated items (marking, co-ordination, draining etc).

 

[Lurker King]

You guys don’t seem to understand what is wrong with games like PoE and TWM. They create an abortion of character building with stupid items because they hate the best things about IE games, i.e., the ability to make great builds, the cool powerful items, etc. Then, to please us, they try to make amends, putting some cream on top of this shit cake. The encounter design is still awful, the combat is still a mess, the games are still barebones, the writing is horrible, etc. I have the impression that in order to enjoy this shit I have to stop playing cRPGs for another 10 years, then come back and playing all these games together in one day, heavily modded by someone who actually understand IE games, and I will still get bored because the quests are so generic and awful. The developers at Obsidian don’t enjoy making, or don't know how to make, cRPGs anymore. That's why these "but they fixed this retardness in the last update" excuses are so pointless and depressing. They ignore how bad the whole thing is just because Obsidian.

 

[Rivmusique]

Should call in ITS to supervise development.

 

[Lurker King]

Should call in ITS to make the game in their place.

 

[Fenix]

Should call in Trump to make games great again.

 

[Ninjerk]

They should take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.

 

[RK47]

 

[thesheeep]

What I meant Lurker King is that despite all of his faggotry of trying to suck all the fun from Pillars with his balance, the game CAN be exploited and its current 3.0 is a very passable IE pastiche which can be fun in the same way a Jason Statham movie can be entertaining

This is btw also what I think despite my endless rages against the most boring character & combat system ever devised. It is an enjoyable game despite it.
But... what are my friends and me replaying at the moment in Sunday sessions? BG1.
And we are certainly not wearing nostalgia glasses here, we're constantly talking about the flaws in BG and AD&D. And boy, are they numerous. I'd even say there are more flaws in BG & AD&D than there are in PoE and its systems.

Yet... we all played PoE and we all agree it is enjoyable, but none of us found any satisfaction in its systems and none has a desire to replay it. The systems are simply fundamentally boring.

 

[Chateaubryan]

My main beef with PoE's storyline is that the guys at Obsidian didn't wait for their settings to be properly fleshed out before deconstructing it.
Those teasers seem to confirm that they're going further down that road.

Spoiler

I'm referring to the endgame revelations that the gods are false ones and that numerous aspects of the settings were phony/manufactured by said gods/the bad guy. What bothers me the most is that we don't even have to occasion to properly explore what the "cycle of souls" entails that we're already calling the fundamental aspects of it into question.

It's kinda what they did with MotB and KotOR II, but for these examples, they chose well-established settings that could stand this kind of deconstruction in the first place.