Inactive [LP CYOA] Overlord

[Baltika9]

Do I make sense?

You do and you're a genius.

 

[Esquilax]

I agree with Nevill's interpretation here 100%. The things that make us angry aren't things that "trigger" us (god I hate that fucking word) rather, they are things that motivate us. How they manifest themselves should be up to us, whether that means exploding in rage or being cold and methodical about (personally, I don't see our guy as a highly emotional character driven by his passions, like say, Xu Jing). Of course, this is not to say that our anger shouldn't cloud our judgment - it most definitely should - but I much prefer to see it as a thing that drives us rather than a RAGE-O-METER.

What kinda muddies things up are the primary motivations and the secondary motivations; we have all of these various voters who might be more angry about one thing than they are another. Personally, I would prefer if we settle ourselves with three primary motivations, as this vote suggests, then hash out which of these three serves as the primary and which ones are secondary in a subsequent vote.

As it is, most people seem to be a little pissed off about Mieren, since she was backing us up and was killed for protecting us, but while most people agree that they are pissed off about it, I don't think that many of us are VERY angry about it. As such, I don't think that translates well to our character's feelings at the moment.

 

[Nevill]

And as far as he knows, the nuke could have really been the judgement of the Goddesses for his betrayal.

Well, that makes me pissed in its own right.

So they, who govern the fate of men, saw that coming, and instead of choosing a different hero, chose to go with us, making our act of defiance meaningless. Worse yet, they were alright with Mieren's fate and Theseus and Co. killing her. They have planned for it, and they have accepted it as a collateral damage - if not outright stated that everything is as it should be.

I can easily see us being not okay with this.

But besides those three groups, I don't see why our anger should extend to anyone else.

That's because, as Lambchop, you confuse - or at least combine - anger and hate. We are not choosing 'groups to hate'. We are choosing things to be angry at. These things might have reasons behind them that involve certain groups, or they might be embedded in the very foundations of the world.

I just don't really like when we can accidentally choose to lock our character into feeling a certain way that limits or dictated our future actions.

You have to, eventually, this is what characterization is about. Our previous actions determine our character and define the way he approaches the situation.

That said, I think we can safely agree that Kyle is a prominent and powerful enough figure not to be killed off-screen and deprive you of a choice of what to do with him.

I would prefer if we settle ourselves with three primary motivations, as this vote suggests, then hash out which of these three serves as the primary and which ones are secondary in a subsequent vote.

That is what I was hoping for (except that it could be solved in one vote), but it is a bit too late to alter the voting now, and the result is sort of similar to what I wanted anyway.

Edit:

I voted the way I did BECAUSE so many others voted for the Mieren thing. It was/is clearly the front runner and I wanted to get angry at our self into the mix.

Yep. Pretty much the thing I wrote about. People have primary motivations that override the secondary ones and the latter don't show up at all unless artificially made to.

Which leads to the situation where people might have to lie about their primary motivations for the secondary ones to be acknowledged. Which leads to r00fles.

 

[Baltika9]

That's because, as Lambchop, you confuse - or at least combine - anger and hate. We are not choosing 'groups to hate'. We are choosing things to be angry at. These things might have reasons that involve certain groups, or they might be embedded in the very foundations of the world.

That was kinda-sorta my point, we have no reason (or right, really) to hate anyone here, but we have lots of reasons to be angry, which is what I was going for in the first place.

 

[Grimgravy]

I voted the way I did BECAUSE so many others voted for the Mieren thing. It was/is clearly the front runner and I wanted to get angry at our self into the mix.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

That's because, as Lambchop, you confuse - or at least combine - anger and hate. We are not choosing 'groups to hate'. We are choosing things to be angry at. These things might have reasons behind them that involve certain groups, or they might be embedded in the very foundations of the world.

Anger and hate are two different points on the same spectrum. Hate is just a lot of anger.

But as you said: we are choosing things to be angry AT - not angry about. That choice is that only one that assigns anger without assigning blame. Instead of choosing a thing to be angry AT, we merely choose a thing to be angry ABOUT. because of that, treave is taking it as us being angry AT anyone who mentions it. I think that's awkward.

 

[Nevill]

But as you said: we are chosing things to be angry AT, not angry about. That choice is that only one that assigns anger with assigning blame

I think you are the one who assigns that meaning to the word. Where did you get that, anyway?

Who is responsible for the anger that we feel towards mankind? Who is the culprit here?

Essentially you are saying that since some things do not fit your definition of anger, they do not belong on the list, which strikes me as odd.

treave is taking it as us being angry at anyone who mentions it.

That might have something to do with a T-word in the choice description. I hate that word too.

 

[Esquilax]

That might have something to do with a T-word in the choice description. I hate that word too.

What word? Tranny? But this is the Codex, that's unavoidable.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Who is responsible for the anger that we feel towards mankind? Who is the culprit here?

Mankind. It clearly outlines that we are angry at them for being "Fools enslaved by destiny, unable to break free of their own volition."

Essentially you are saying that since some things do not fit your definition of anger, they do not belong on the list, which strikes me as odd.

No, it's not about anger, it's about blame.

I shall diagram it for thee:
A.The Goddesses. As the beings with ultimate power over all, they also have the ultimate responsibility. From your perspective, they betrayed that responsibility.
Who are we angry at? The godessess. Why? Because as the beings with ultimate power over all, they also have the ultimate responsibility. From your perspective, they betrayed that responsibility.

B. Mankind as a whole. Fools enslaved by destiny, unable to break free of their own volition.
Who are we angry at? Mankind as a whole. Why? Becaus they are fools enslaved by destiny, unable to break free of their own volition.

C. The Seven Kingdoms. They called you hero and made you a scapegoat against your wishes. You never asked for this.
Who are we angry at? The Seven Kingdoms. Why? They called you hero and made you a scapegoat against your wishes. You never asked for this.

D. Kyle, Althus and Lobelia. They betrayed you: that is the only thing you are certain of right now.
Who are we angry at? Kyle, Althus and Lobelia. Why? They betrayed you: that is the only thing you are certain of right now.

E. Mieren's death. She did not deserve it.
Who are we angry at? ?????? Why? She did not deserve it.

F. The Demon Lord, for without him this would never have happened.
Who are we angry at? The Demon Lord. Why? Because without him this would never have happened.

G. Yourself, for not seeing it coming.
Who are we angry at? Ourself. Why? For not seeing it coming.

One of these things is not like the other...

 

[Nevill]

No, it's the

Spoiler

'trigger'.

Oh God, what have you done?!! I've entered the recursion of butthurt! Somebody, HALP!

TRIGGERED!

TRIGGERED!!

TRIGGERED!!!

 

[treave]

I think you are the one who assigns that meaning to the word. Where did you get that, anyway?

I see how it can be viewed that way.

Still going through the replies, but at this point I'm leaning towards interpreting it as being angry at the Goddesses over a personal reason i.e her death, with the fate of the rest of humanity being a far secondary concern when it comes to the question of why you are against them.

Also, there wouldn't be the question of this at all if you guys had just chosen to play the chill angel instead of an aromantic angelkin easily triggered by certain things.

 

[Nevill]

Who are we angry at? ?????? Why? She did not deserve it.

That is an easy hole to fix.

Who are we angry at? The ones who killed Mieren. Why? She did not deserve it.

Obviously. Since they have caused her death. With the ones responsible ranging from the Goddesses to the Party, depending on how you ration the responsibility.

But that is only because you limit your interpretation in a certain way and then go 'A-ha!' when things no longer fit in.

We can be angry at the fact that Mieren had to die. Which could be fixed by resurrecting her, without hating on anyone. Or it could be 'fixed' by making her murderers regret their actions - and I mean genuinely regret, e.g. feel the sorrow and guilt, not the pain of our RIGHTFUL VENGEANCE. Or it could be adressed in another way.

This isn't necessarily about placing blame, but about the things that do not sit well with us, is what I am trying to tell.

Still going through the replies, but at this point I'm leaning towards interpreting it as being angry at the Goddesses over a personal reason

Throw in their handling of our own fate and I will have nothing to complain about.

Whether our hero decides to extrapolate his story to all mankind at a later date is his own business. He is more than a bit selfish, after all.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

But that is only because you limit your interpretation in a certain way and then go 'A-ha!' when things no longer fit in.

No, it's because treave said we would be pissed off at the mere mention of her name but not necessarily at the douche who murdered her in front of us. I agree that that is a way to solve it, but I would rather it be a separate issue so that we can be clear about "who" we blame instead of wasting a vote on "what we blame them for".

edit: Basically, I think things would be different if you took E off. E is an issue nearly everyone can agree on. You are basically wasting a vote. While people may be pissed at Kyle, they are MORE pissed that Kyle killed the girl and so they vote for that, not understanding that it will mean Kyle is still blame free because no one just voted to be angry at Kyle.

We can be angry at the fact that Mieren had to die. Which could be fixed by resurrecting her, without hating on anyone. Or it could be 'fixed' by making her murderers regret their actions - and I mean genuinely regret, e.g. feel the sorrow and guild, not the pain of our RIGHTFUL VENGEANCE. Or it could be adressed in another way.

But why would you do that if you aren't angry at them? If we are not angry at Kyle at all over this, why should we make him ever feel guilt over it. He just did what he had to do, after all.

 

[Nevill]

But why would you do that if you aren't angry at them?

Because her death needs to be addressed. She needs a resolution - or rather, we need a resolution.

The nature of this resolution depends entirely on you. She didn't deserve death. What are you going to do about it?

If we can't fix this, we can avenge her, or we can at least make her murderers realize their wrongdoing.

 

[treave]

No, it's because treave said we would be pissed off at the mere mention of her name

Hm, where did I say that?

 

[Nevill]

See my updated post plz.

they are MORE pissed that Kyle killed the girl and so they vote for that, not understanding that it will mean Kyle is still blame free because no one just voted to be angry at Kyle.

He can be blame free if people decide not to assign him blame for Mieren's death, and blame themselves or the Gods.

But if you think that the majority of us feels the Power of FFFFUUU~ as vividly as you do, then you have nothing to worry about, right? Because we'd still try to have a reckoning.

But yes, I acknowledge that any system that does not have you voting to murder Theseus is a flawed system.

You had your chance with a weighted voting, though, and you threw it away.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Nevill, yes, he can be blame free. Read the quotes below.

edit: oh, and yeah, I get it it, I threw it away. Couldn't be that you are just happy that the current voting system has us not hating Theseus. Actually I had the same problem with the last system that I still have now only now it is worse because every voter only gets one choice.

Hm, where did I say that?

That's a good way of looking at it. Since the votes are so overwhelming for E, however, her death itself is now a trigger for anger even against people that didn't directly cause it. It doesn't necessarily mean you hate them for killing her.

Nah, that's nonsensical, since his face can be enough to remind you of her death. Doesn't have to mean you hate him personally, you'll get equally triggered by his identical twin who has nothing to do with it.

it's the whole concept of being "triggered" without actually blaming the guy who killed her.

 

[Nevill]

Nevill, yes, he can be blame free. Read the quotes below.

Yes, he can be blame free. Read the quotes above, that is what I am saying.

Couldn't be that you are just happy that the current voting system has us not hating Theseus.

Of course. We were a Gayngel before we became an Angrel, and Kyle is 20/20 after all.

Hmmm... are we Gangrel now? Well, Gayngrel, but still.

Spoiler

 

[treave]

it's the whole concept of being "triggered" without actually blaming the guy who killed her.

I don't think that means:

we would be pissed off at the mere mention of her name

Now, I am not a psychologist, but I always thought that it was possible to be angry at something happening without assigning blame. Perhaps it is literally impossible, I don't know, I'm not about to dismiss anyone's lived experiences, so if that is the case, I am perfectly happy to offer another change to the choices. We have a few days to go before I update again anyway.

 

[Nevill]

I don't think that means:

The only problem I see now is that while I can vaguely imagine what this doesn't mean, I still don't get what this means.

We are angry at her death... and then what? What can we expect it to change in our dealings with people, or in our motivations?

I am fine with keeping the question of who or what exactly is at fault for her death - if anyone - open until later.

Edit: Oh, and I am against changing the choices.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Now, I am not a psychologist, but I always thought that it was possible to be angry at something happening without assigning blame. Perhaps it is literally impossible, I don't know, I'm not about to dismiss anyone's lived experiences, so if that is the case, I am perfectly happy to offer another change to the choices.

No, it isn't impossible, but I just think that it should be possible for us to assign blame within this choice if we are going to pick something to be angry at.

With the previous system, it was solvable as Nevil suggested (i.e., the secondary choices become what we blame for our anger.). But with the current system, when a codexer picks E - fully meaning to blame theseus or the goddesses or themselves - they can't have any control over who is blamed. It's up to whatever the other people voted for. So, Nevill (for example) who let's just say isn't angry about her death at all, gets to have a say in who we blame by using his vote instead of the people who are actually angry about E. Makes no sense and results in a character decision that will not be anything close to what the majority of voters actually want.

In this case, the 14 voters who picked E will have no say in who to blame. This is the only choice in the list that has this problem.

 

[Nevill]

No, it isn't impossible, but I just think that it should be possible for us to assign blame within this choice if we are going to pick something to be angry at.

This aren't the droids you are looking for, bro. We are not assigning blame yet:

I always thought that it was possible to be angry at something happening without assigning blame.

It might be possible to do it here, but we aren't doing it.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

This aren't the droids you are looking for, bro. We are not assigning blame yet:

Yeah, instead we are simply "triggered". Whatever, that makes no sense. You see a guy chop off your friend's head and call her a wench and you blame no one and are simply triggered? How does that make sense? It's a broken choice and you know it. You are just happy it favors Theseus because you like to troll me.

 

[Nevill]

With the previous system, it was solvable as Nevil suggested (i.e., the secondary choices become what we blame for our anger.)

Also, please rationalize your reasoning if B wins and D becomes a secondary reason.

I just want to hear you spin a tale how Kyle is to blame for all of mankind's problems.

 

[treave]

We are angry at her death... and then what? What can we expect it to change in our dealings with people, or in our motivations?

At the moment? Nothing, not immediately. A personal reason may not be the reason you tell the world. You can also do the same thing for many different reasons.

With the previous system, it was solvable as Nevil suggested (i.e., the secondary choices become what we blame for our anger.). But with the current system, when a codexer picks E - fully meaning to blame theseus or the goddesses or themselves - they can't have any control over who is blamed. It's up to whatever the other people voted for. So, Nevill (for example) who let's just say isn't angry about her death at all, gets to have a say in who we blame by using his vote instead of the people who are actually angry about E. Makes no sense and results in a character decision that will not be anything close to what the majority of voters actually want.

At the moment all this means is that you blame the Goddesses more than you do Kyle for her death. There's nothing stopping you from choosing to give him some more blame if you get around to meeting him again.