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Inactive [LP CYOA] Overlord

Discussion in 'Choose Your Own Adventure Land' started by treave, Jul 20, 2015.

  1. Well, it's more like I'm coming over to your side on this issue, than you coming over to mine, if that makes you feel any better.
     
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  2. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Thanks, it does.

    Come, come to the hugbox. :hug:
     
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  3. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    Since we've talked about Rin, let's talk about demons.
    The first thing that I noticed about them is that they have a feudal society, with all of the politics it entails; and they place a very strong emphasis on family, honor and structure:
    Kimaris was obviously fond of his daughter, but held tradition and his kingdom (more accurately, his family's kingdom) in very high regard, which is why he agreed to our deal as an alliance of convenience to be secured by his own daughter.
    Now, this may be just Rin's unique personality speaking (I think she is the oddball of her species), but I also think that demonic society emphasized having a proper, honorable reputation, much like our own feudal systems. But that's where the similarities end.
    They seem to be follow the 'law-bound demon' stereotype: once given, they won't go back on their word, but they sure can and will screw you over on the fine print. Taking advantage of one another's weakness is definitely a thing in their society, but so are contractual obligations.
    Ultimately, I think they're a more familial Camarilla, diablerie included, except instead of having a 'me against everyone else' mentality, it's 'my family and I against everyone else.'
    For those of us not familiar with World of Darkness, Tywin Lannister's mentality is a good example:
    Show Spoiler




     
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  4. Rex Feral Liturgist

    Rex Feral
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    No update in sight, lots of DISCUSS.

    Reminds me of the good old days of Legend.
     
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  5. Gobblecock Arcane Zionist Agent

    Gobblecock
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    Nigga, please. Deez nuts always be housed in yo mouf, and you love it that way.


    This character's persona is a bait-and-switch operation.

    Wasn't there a distant time, several days ago, when it was universally acknowledged that, while healing goblins looked goody-goody at first glance, in fact it was an unfathomably evil science experiment for selfish motives? Wasn't that the initial sales pitch by several people?

    This is the gradual mission creep of the "Friendship is Magic" brigade.

    1. First, say that an action only looks virtuous and irrationally altruistic, but it is actually a twisted plot hiding corrupt self-interested motives.
    2. Later remember it unironically and sincerely as clear proof that the character's established persona is virtuous. Use that as a bludgeon to enforce further virtuous patterns.

    Bait-and-switch. A sucker born every minute. I, for one, welcome our brony overlord.

    The past choices of Erdrick are rife with exhortations that "saving the children is really evil, because loli slave girl!" and then she quickly becomes identified as an adopted kid sister, that our "lecherous" character would never corrupt, and eventually the real motive of that group is revealed to be pointless altruism toward average peasant children, and they exclaim in triumph, "See, we saved peasant children and healed goblins! Don't change the character now!"

    If someone wants to save children because xe views it as a virtuous act of decency, then let xer make that argument clearly from the first instance. Currently, that is not the modus operandi of the FiM brigade. Xey always sell it to others as secretly the most evil option of all, then use it to establish virtue.

    Until a choice is argued up-front and without guile as a clear path to establishing that Erdrick is virtuous, nothing from his past choices can be used to establish his personality. It is shot through with false premises and subtle subversions. The evil overlord imposing his will through manipulation and lies ought to be the one in the actual game, not Nevill in the meta game. Look at him. He's steepling his fingers right now.

    All this is separate from the choices right now. Eat Rin or don't. Still, whatever decision here, it's shifty to begin talking about an established persona when the reasons used to promote a choice are often billed as "the real evil option" and then unmasked later as altruism.
     
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  6. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    I understand that the current hero is far below the lofty rapelord standarts. However, I can't help but notice a bit of reality twisting in order to get us there.

    No. Saving the kids is not really evil. It is, however, not necessarily good, either. It all depends on what you use it for.

    Try to corrupt them all you want, but all that is really asked of you is that you don't attempt to murder them in the next few updates. Chances are, they were saved because we as the voters and Erdrick as a character saw some use in them. If you are going to try and kill them off because you are oh-so-evil that you'd rather ignore that simple fact, you might prepare yourself for disappointment and start pre-emptively calling everyone wretched do-gooders who are in it for magic and rainbows. :argh: Oh, right. :lol:

    I think there is a bit of a difference between corruption and outright disposal that I have seen you advocating, don't you think? But we can't have this distinction and still maintain the blissful simplicity of character classification, can we?

    Must be a conspiracy! :argh:

    Can't possibly be that the kids may prove useful down the road, or that the loli is considered a part of the future harem because of Erdrick's existing pervert persona - and yes, they need to survive for that, first.

    Oh, yes, just so you know, I will continue voting for the choices that keep them alive, because I must be a Brony Illuminati or something. Clearly, I should have stipulated that when I made my argument, but I must have cowardly hidden it when I said that I wanted the kids under our wing to make them into our henchmen. :lol:

    I think his personality is established as DDC in the very first choice, and that seems to be what the voters have agreed upon. As long a it is about adjustments within this archetype with gradual shifts to the character you want (as opposed to 'we are a MONSTAR now, bring our the cadavers!'), I suspect most people would be fine with it.

    The choice with Rin had quite a few of us up in arms because it was seen as an attempt to shit on the very foundation of his persona that we came to like, and start everything from a clean slate because some of us weren't satisfied with the direction we were going with. Instead of trying to steer it their way they'd rather tear the whole thing down.

    To borrow a quote from one of the private discussions:
    As long as you operate within the confines of this character, you are not going to hear much about established persona as a counter-argument.

    Well, that, and not undoing your decisions in the very next update. That also helps make your case more attractive. :lol:

    No. No, it isn't. You would not get that much resistance if you didn't try to destroy what the majority of players seems to enjoy.

    I am afraid this dichotomy only exists in your imagination. It's a binary thinking that an action can only be evil or altruistic.

    Must be a lot of choices that are 'unmasked' as altruistic for you, since they aren't up to snuff compared to what you imagine as 'real evil' ones.
     
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  7. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    The majority of players so far seem to enjoy voting for:

    Saving goblins
    Saving princes
    Saving children

    Which is pretty damn nosy-parker do-gooder, like they're trying to be more heroic than they were as an actual Hero. +M

    They have also voted for:

    Destroying historical ruins
    Torturing and killing enemies
    Recruiting child soldiers
    Procuring a sex slave from a neighbouring village

    Which on the other hand sounds suspiciously like ISIS. :M
     
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  8. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Can't help but point out that a lot of them are the same people.

    What's wrong with saving children to turn them into child soldiers and saving princes to have a steady supply of sex slaves with the Crown's blessing? Does not fit the pre-defined archetypes of a villainous villain and a virtuous do-gooder? :M

    P.S. I did it for the adjutant. :salute:

    P.P.S. Will still try and expend the favor with the Prince to turn her into a sex slave a harem candidate.
     
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  9. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    I suppose it should be a discussion about whether morality is determined by thoughts or deeds or both.

    So far, judging purely from thoughts, Erdrick would be grey. Judging from deeds, likely the same. This is as far as my control goes, and this interpretation of greyness may of course be subjective to others.

    Judging from the voters' thoughts, however, I would say that in general their intentions may be closer to white, and this is where some may be concerned that they could slide down a slope of perpetrating heroic deeds from a hero in self-denial about being heroic.
     
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  10. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    The Codex is predominantly Chaotic Good. That, and MAXIMUM FUCK. Kind of hard to keep them out of that mindset. More often than not we can only affect the character, not the voters themselves.

    However, an attempt to play a black character while the voters' intentions are mostly white would IMO result in nonsense. Lambchop was right on that, sooner or later we would either try to redeem ourselves, or finish the protagonist off because playing pitch black villains is not something we have the stomach for.

    Dio was ditched for Ean after a single chapter, and even then the 'Dex tried to make a plotter into a proud MF incarnate. :lol:

    I guess Chaotic Neutral hero with a selfish streak is my best hope of having a successful character in this kind of LP. Keeping him sufficiently black for our enemies and sufficiently white for our allies to allow both sides to vent.
     
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  11. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    The problem with Dio wasn't that Dex can't into evil and blackish-grey morality (see: Anthony Sommers, Ida), it's that we've been playing an unstoppable machine of good for so long that we didn't know what to do with a self-centered politician when we got him Hence, we screwed him up hardcore. This time, I'm prepared giving a negative character a serious try and so are a little under half of the voter base. All we have to do is learn from our mistakes; The Dio Experience wasn't a success by any means, but it showed us what not to do.
    Best hope for whom, exactly? Because that's not what I want.
    This is fucking rich, coming to the chief opponent of all things not Chaotic Good.
    I want it to go on record that I was against saving the kids, against saving the prince and the only reasons I agreed to give Petze the potion was to, one, check it's effectiveness and, two, to have the gobbos be even more worshipful of us.
    And I definitely, a hundred percent, do not condone this mentality:
    To be honest, if I knew that this was a part of DDC at character creation, I wouldn't have voted for him.
     
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  12. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    Do you expect the DDC to be moral enough not to have tried shameless white-knighting before, treating it like some sort of tactic that is offensive to him? :lol:

    Going "M'lady!" and taking a blow for a damsel in distress is a narrative staple for success as long as you don't follow it up with an air of clinginess and entitlement. Or if you don't end up getting your mojo stolen by another guy who looks more of a gentle knight than you do. Or if you don't try it on the wrong sorts of women in the wrong scenario (works best with honourable, well-brought up ladies with little exposure to the world and a fantasy for being rescued).
     
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  13. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    Yeah, actually, but more out of self respect than any sense of decency or morality. That, and being a punching bag for someone else's benefit is another thing I was trying to avoid (yes, Erdrick was doing it for his own benefit, but it never worked out that way in reality).
    On the other hand, that means there aren't many lows that we won't sink to for what we want.
     
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  14. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Black-ish grey, maybe. Dio was not grey, though.

    For me, obviously. I think that's what I wrote. :M

    I want a successful character, with success defined as women, money and power as I've clarified earlier.

    Can't have women if you guys are trying to kill them off in a fit of GRIMDARK. So of course I am inclined to view what you want as a failure state.

    I don't understand your point. Do you disagree with the statement? :M

    Don't approve of it either, but much less so than of killing Rin. The latter is not acceptable to me under any circumstances.

    However, I must point out that one is temporary and is subject to alteration, the other isn't.

    Yeah, I've noticed. You are also for killing Rin. You are filed here as well:
     
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  15. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    The mindset is there because if you have to break the mind-control, you have to get close to figure out how. And if you are getting close, there's a chance that you are getting hurt, regardless of your abilities. You do not intend on getting hurt (hence the use of 'if need be'), because it's pretty dumb to jump to the conclusion that after she beats you up she'll break free of the mind control for some inconceivable reason, but you have to go into it with the expectation that you may get injured in the process.

    If you are going so far as to (potentially) get hurt on her behalf, there's two reasons: you want to earn brownie points with her later on for a better relationship, or you think she is too useful to die here.

    Regardless of whether you are doing so out of horniness or out of pragmatism, her gratitude is important.


    edit: "This tactic hasn't worked all that well with women before..." but it has worked well with men, to a certain extent. :M

     
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  16. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    It's ok, (s)he is probably a girl anyway.
     
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  17. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    Anyway, I'll just reiterate that it is stated "breaking the mind control" has top priority, which mean it is more important than "not harming her". If you decide that you have to beat the shit out of her to fix the mind control, that is what you will do.
     
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  18. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    That one's totally on me, then, I should've done my research. Not familiar with eastern story conventions and all. I replied before you edited this little snippet in, I'm posting all of this stuff in between SR Hong Kong loading screens.
    Now I see where it's coming from. The choice's description gave me a completely different impression, that's all.
    :salute:

    We've moved beyond this vote a while ago, we're debating (more like fighting over) our general approach to the character. Diablo had it's chance to win, it's not happening, we've accepted that.

    I do disagree, because I do think we can pull it off if we put our minds to it. There have been precedents, so saying that 'Codex can't into evil' is false. It's been repeated so long that we actually started believing it. I also can't help but think that you're trying to pull the 'I know what's best for you, trust me' card to make the character go your way. That doesn't sit well with me.
    I've a little theory about her, but I'll wait to see her reaction in the next chapter before I post it.
     
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  19. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    There are no examples in Western fiction of a knight putting himself on the line to protect and win a maiden's affection?

    Or a scoundrel protagonist pretending to be a hero at the cost of his own blood and getting the fair maiden that way, only for tension to arise later on as his lies begin to get unraveled while the audience wonders if true love will prevail for him despite his deception?

    I find that a bit hard to believe. I mean, I'm pretty sure Shakespeare must have done it one way or another...

    That's understandable, you guys are triggered easily by anything that is related to fedora tipping. :M
     
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  20. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Not as I see it. Diablo is a part of that general approach you have advocated and are still advocating. For you, it is an acceptable outcome/side effect, for me it isn't (boring, more like).

    I want my women alive. Which goes for both Rin and Aria - and may in the future extend to the Barzamite commander, the adjutant and who-knows-what, although to a lesser degree (depending on whether they can be our women). As long as you vote to try and kill them, we are going to have a fundamental disagreement about what 'success' and 'failure' mean.

    So, no, we have not moved beyond this at all. Give me a character concept that you can reconcile with my definition of success (which is the whole reason I chose a particular background for our hero), and you won't have me fighting you tooth and nail which seems to frustrate us both.

    I said the Codex is predominantly Chaotic Good. :M

    It means that we fall back into our natural state unless there is a constant pressure to maintain another mindset. With this LP, it's the title that reminds us that, yes, we are supposed to be kind of a dick. Just notice how many throw the word around as an argument.

    I would not say that 'Dex can't into evil if only because I know that the 'Dex can into contrarian just to prove itself. :lol:

    Nah, fire away. As long as it's speculation and you don't try to spin it into something else, I am not going to condemn you or anything. :lol:
     
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  21. These two quotes pretty much sum up my feeling on the choice. Our priority is getting her back to senses vs "beat her to gain power, who cares if she lives or dies".

    It's probably going to be a tough fight, but the intentions of the character here need to be focused on saving our valuable (ass)et rather than beating her to an unrecognizable pulp.

    Why wait? :M

    Halo Up The Ass

    As Rin looks down at your mangled body, the madness that once filled her begins to dissipate.

    Why? Why didn't he just kill me? Surely his gigadyne could have ended my life in my maddened state. Does this mean he...

    "Rin,", you cough.

    "You're alive?", she asks - nudging you with her foot to confirm it.

    "Yes. Has *cough* has the mind control spell expired?"

    "Mind control? What? Oh, no, I was just really pissed at you for leaving me to fight that werebear/vampire/battle-mage on my own. Think I still have fur in my teeth..."

    "Dammit, Rin. I risked my life to save you...", you trail off, losing consciousness.

    He...he risked his life to save me.

    Definitely.

    This definitely means he's gay.
     
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  22. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    I thought we were following anime/manga conventions? Has Lambchop lied to me?
    I'm pretty sure that everyone except you and Lambchop has. No one else brought up this decision point as an argument in a while now, we're arguing character approach now. Gobblecock, Esquilax, Secretary Hamilton and myself are, at least.

    You've mentioned that you're for Women>Efficiency>Other; I'm for Callous Efficiency>Women>Other. That's it. The Diablo route sounded interesting to me, so I went for it. It's not happening, which is fine, there are other things to do. If we come across OPPs (defined as other peoples' problems that we have no investments in) again, I'll vote to skip them.
    I don't know if I've got a firm grasp on her character yet, so I'll wait for a bit.
     
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  23. m4davis Scholar

    m4davis
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    Eh I still want to see that bit of speculation even if it ends up being horribly off I would probably get at least a little bit of entertainment reading and dissecting it in my head.
     
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  24. Esquilax Arcane

    Esquilax
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    I don't see why Nevill citing a character that we had for a single chapter in an LP we did three fucking years ago is being used as some sort of cautionary tale of why we shouldn't go with evil characters."Well, we made a lot of stupid decisions with this guy (ignoring the fact that we make stupid decisions with every character we make. It's like me citing previous classics like Sphere Diplomacy and Youxia City Showdown as reasons to never play as a morally upright character.), so we should never play as a villainous character again!" It strikes me as that same sort of sneaky reasoning that Gobblecock was referring to. Making good decisions, especially as a group, isn't always easy - panic and paranoia can set in, some things are only obvious in hindsight, clues can be missed, etc.

    There are plenty of reasons for things to go terribly for our PC's (which, honestly, have led to some of the most interesting and best parts of these LP's), but I'm positive that picking cruel, selfish, ruthless characters is not why this happens. We fuck up a lot in general.
     
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  25. Gobblecock Arcane Zionist Agent

    Gobblecock
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    You got the order all mixed up. That's why you should realistically end up getting nothing at all.



    "You gotta make the EXP first. Then when you get the EXP, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women. That's why you gotta make your own moves."

    You don't want to make your own moves and level up first? Just want to jeer at playing Diablo? Just want to head straight to the women? You get played and smacked in the face like little babyface Chico.

    The adjutant is a voice in a tin can. This is a real sex-starved creeper we're being asked to believe is "what everyone wants" here.


    No, no, no... he's a failed Austrian artist. Stick to his established character outline.

    He should be interested in expressing his social disillusionment on canvas, using art to evoke the hardships of national humiliation, so that rich jews in the trendy art-houses can understand the suffering of average Germans. Organising beerhall putsches and doing leadership things is not playing him correctly. He wasn't even an officer when he served in the army! He's a vegetarian! Why would he cook a human, when he can't even cook an animal? His character arc is ruined!

    I don't think Erdrick is really defined by being a merchant or a scholar, or enjoying (imaginary unrequited) sex with women. To the extent that you worry about Erdrick always doing what an archetype would, you create a successful caricature and an unsuccessful portrait of complex humanity. I really don't care what a typical merchant or scholar would do when Erdrick is not bounded by mercantile or academic realities. He has a lot more going for him than the narrow skill sets that those mentalities usually leverage. There's only one thing I know for sure about Erdrick (other than his rainbow-striped faggotry) and one thing that I need to know: everything he craves will require power first. Up front. As a precondition. That means he prioritises power above all. That's how you get to Overlord status, and then the women spend all their energy getting to you.
     
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