In Progress [LP CYOA] Tower

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

You do realize that with E all it takes is for the knights to decide to search the room for loot and astras like we just did and we will get caught anyway, right?

No, I doubt the knights will be searching every corner of the room. The designs of these ruins appear simple. Flat, smooth walls, not a lot of places to hide things. It's not like there are cupboards everywhere for them to search.

And besides, the monk wants to move to the 30th floor asap. Barring any further distractions like having to chase after more free conscripts for the Tsar's forces children, he will want to move on.

A gradual increase means that there are very low odds of us falling unless we keep running for long distances. Our goal isn't to put as much distance between us and the knights but to go down enough side-paths that they've lost us and feel uncomfortable trying to chase us. That's doable. There's a branching path just at the end of the corridor.

Long distances like the endless corridors of this ruin. Your entire plan hinges on the idea that the knights won't chase us. What if they do? What if we fall or one of these corridors is a dead end?

 

[Absinthe]

Your doubts mean nothing to me. These guys are familiar with going through ruins for astras. If they're already here, it is a very easy call for them to have a thorough look around the room and see if they can find anything useful, like we just did.

And A's plan hinges us on us being able to lose them by rushing down a few side corridors until they no longer know which way we went. Chasing is not a contest of pure speed. It's about making sure you've actually got the right path. All we need to do is give them the slip once we're out of the room.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Your doubts mean nothing to me. These guys are familiar with going through ruins for astras. If they're already here, it is very easy for them to have a thorough look around the room and see if they can find anything useful while they're at it.

If they're familiar with it and the astras are usually placed the way these were, they've already seen the empty pedestals and concluded the room has no astras.

Your argument is inconsistent and makes no sense btw:

On the one hand you say they will be too afraid of traps to chase after us. On the other, you say they are ruin experts that love pointlessly scouring every inch of every room they come across in a ruin, despite Rasputin here breathing down their necks about the 30th floor.

And A's plan hinges us on us being able to lose them by rushing down a few side corridors until they no longer know which way we went. Chasing is not a contest of pure speed. It's about making sure you've actually got the right path. All we need to do is give them the slip once we're out of the room.

There are lights that follow us where ever we go. They will see them.

 

[Absinthe]

If they're familiar with it and the astras are usually placed the way these were, they've already seen the empty pedestals and concluded the room has no astras.

If you're looking for astras in ruins, you'd be in the habit of searching thoroughly.

Your argument is inconsistent and makes no sense btw: On the one hand you say they will be too afraid of traps to chase after us. On the other, you say they are ruin experts that love pointlessly scouring every inch of every room they come across in a ruin, despite Rasputin here breathing down their necks about the 30th floor.

The inconsistency only exists in your head, because you are trying to conflate separate problems together in an attempt to force a contradiction. Ruins divers are in the habit of scouring ruins for treasure, even if they're also cautious of traps. You know this. They also don't need to lay their hands all over the room to find us. They just need to walk around the room a bit and look up and down the nooks and crannies with their lantern to spot us.

So right now, you are trying hard to ignore the significant possibility of knights choosing to look through the room for astras and anything else they can find, while they're here. But this scenario is by no means an unreasonable concern.

The monk apparently doesn't mean anything to you. And the knights wanting to have a good look around the room for anything useful doesn't mean anything to you either. And the odds of the girls or Andrew and Scotty giving us away while we're trying to hide probably don't count for much either in your book. Your version of probability is an ostrich burying its head in the sand and claiming there's nothing there.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

If you're looking for astras in ruins, you'd be in the habit of leaving no stone unturned.

Except they aren't. They were looking for this orb.

Their next goal isn't to search every room here for more astras either. As Rasputin said: "all that remains is to see the gate open on the 30th floor" (paraphrasing).

The inconsistency only exists in your head, because you are trying to conflate separate problems together in an attempt to force a contradiction. Ruins divers are in the habit of scouring ruins for treasure, even if they're also cautious of traps. You know this.

Bro, if they're "ruins divers" (new class?), I doubt they will be afraid of traps. They'll probably know how to spot them easily.

They just need to walk around the room a bit and look up and down the nooks and crannies with their lantern to spot us.

Again, I doubt they'll take the time to do this. Andrew and Scotty came from outside the room. As far as they are concerned, the room is safe apart from the dumb kid with the sword.

If we stay hidden, Rasputin is likely to tell Scotty's dad to take him home, Andrew may or may nt be taken into custody for assaulting a knight (probably not with Scotty there defending him) and Rasputin WILL NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT WHO ELSE IS OR ISNT HERE BECAUSE HE WANTS TO SEE THE 30TH FLOOR.

Put yourself in the monk's position. Would you care if there are more brats here or not? He just bled blood all over an orb to see that gate open, man!

 

[Absinthe]

Your doubts mean nothing to me. Just because they were here for the orb doesn't mean they have to pass on an opportunity to find astras and loot in this room, like we just did. It's a real risk. Just because you doubt all the risks to your plan doesn't mean they aren't there.

And with A all we need to do is give them the slip in the side-paths of the ruins to lose them.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Your doubts mean nothing to me. Just because they were here for the orb doesn't mean they have to pass on an opportunity to find astras and loot in this room, like we just did. It's a risk. Just because you doubt all the risks to your plan doesn't mean they aren't there.

It's like being stuck in a conversation loop with a Bioware NPC.

I give up. We've both repeated our arguments at least once.

Sinc E is winning I give you full permission to wag your finger at me and tell me how the right decision here was clearly shooting a lantern at this exact chaotic moment.

Because what's the worst that could happen if people have guns drawn and the room suddenly goes dark in a building with metal walls? Can you say ricochet? Between that and Andrew's sword, it'd be a game a Clue up in here figuring out who killed whom with what.

 

[Absinthe]

It's kind of interesting watching how quickly your arguments founder when I refuse to take the bait and get dragged into yet another pointless digression bickering over minutiae by instead focusing on the main points at hand. And now you're suddenly upset that your arguing tactics are no longer working.

So here is where we're at: I have plausible basis for why E will get us caught, on multiple fronts. You have very little basis for why A will fail. Your only argument that your are left with is that basically the knights will chase us and keep chasing us until they've got us and throughout this process we will never manage to give them the slip, even though we have a head start on them and the ruins have branching side-paths. I guess you're also going for the argument that the knights do not practice proper trigger discipline (and no, they do not all have guns drawn) and will start to blindly fire their ricocheting bullets into an enclosed space with no regard for friendly fire or collateral damage, which strikes me as rather unlikely. So far, A's probability of success is distinctly higher.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

It's kind of interesting watching how quickly your arguments founder when I refuse to take the bait and get dragged into yet another pointless digression bickering over minutiae by instead focusing on the main point. And now you're suddenly upset that your arguing tactics are no longer working.

No, it's that we've already had this exact argument. Scroll up:

Your doubts mean nothing to me. These guys are familiar with going through ruins for astras. If they're already here, it is a very easy call for them to have a thorough look around the room and see if they can find anything useful, like we just did.

To which I responded:

If they're familiar with it and the astras are usually placed the way these were, they've already seen the empty pedestals and concluded the room has no astras.

Your argument is inconsistent and makes no sense btw:

On the one hand you say they will be too afraid of traps to chase after us. On the other, you say they are ruin experts that love pointlessly scouring every inch of every room they come across in a ruin, despite Rasputin here breathing down their necks about the 30th floor.

And now you are repeating yourself again:

Your doubts mean nothing to me. Just because they were here for the orb doesn't mean they have to pass on an opportunity to find astras and loot in this room, like we just did.

How is my argument floundering when I simply refuse to repeat myself?


edit: in response to your edit. Again, round in circles. I get it, you think A will work out fine and see zero risks. Great. Glad you let us know.

 

[Absinthe]

And I already pointed out that it would be really easy for them to take their lantern and have a look around the room to see if there's anything left here, and spot us. It's not like they will trigger traps just by shining lights up and down the room. Having a look around while they're here is perfectly reasonable for them, and therefore a real risk for us.

Anyway, this is why I point out you're arguing in bad faith. You repeat that you presented your response, but immediately neglect the counter-points that were already raised to it, which is the precise reason I've grown exasperated of arguing details with you: I find myself repeating my arguments a lot and you continually memory holing them. I get bogged into arguments that go pretty much nowhere and even if I'm right it doesn't make a lick of difference to the way these arguments go down. In the end you basically discredit my position not by having a better point but because everyone else has ceased giving the slightest fuck about the way we end up bickering in circles.

 

[Kipeci]

Not sure why they would want to conscript some ten year old. I did backtrack to admit it’s not always better to do nothing, But I did give my reasoning that the girls have hardly been sneaky in this whole excursion and that now the dude they love and care about is engaged in a life or death situation- not the best for them remembering to maintain stealth, and we already have a hunch that they guy is developing an interest in where we are AND he’s been shown to detect children from behind a door. To me E is like a kid trying to hide under a bed after doing something wrong with legs dangling out from it.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Not sure why they would want to conscript some ten year old.

It's a good point. As others have brought up, it isn't a certainty....unless the astras bond to you somehow when you touch them. Then they pretty much have to conscript anyone caught with one and the rumor about "getting to join a knight's order of your choosing" is just a happy face put on it.

It could aslo be done as a punishment for being the ghastly-faced little troll that led Nathaniel's dear Scotty into a dangerous ruin. "After all, isn't he some sort of vampire spawn? The village would be better off without him!"

Regardless, it's risk vs reward: we have no idea what happens if we get caught and impressing these knights by looking cool doesn't gain us as much as potentially staying hidden if being discovered really does turn out to be a bad thing.

 

[Egosphere]

A is probably the most dangerous option in the long run. Shooting out the light when there are guns drawn will give the knights a good reason to break a few skulls. If we get out, there'll be questions about the missing people, one of the girls will tell all etc. What a mess!

B and C are just wtf..
D is a level of cuckoldry that shouldn't even be possible
E is the most realistic option. If Andrew/Scotty get skewered, I doubt the knights will hang around for long. We'll also have a story to tell.

 

[Absinthe]

But I did give my reasoning that the girls have hardly been sneaky in this whole excursion and that now the dude they love and care about is engaged in a life or death situation- not the best for them remembering to maintain stealth,

Yeah there are decent odds our cover is going to get blown really fast in E.

and we already have a hunch that they guy is developing an interest in where we are AND he’s been shown to detect children from behind a door.

Lambchop has managed to reject all of this through his ability to doubt. In his view the priest has no powers, the kids must have made noise out the door, the knights will be profoundly uninterested in having a look around this special room, the girls will keep perfectly quiet and not give us away, the boys won't mention us if they get nabbed, and we will get to walk away when the knights are done grabbing them. Basically he's already committed to voting E, so he just doubts all evidence suggesting it may be a bad idea.

It's a pretty silly thing.

To me E is like a kid trying to hide under a bed after doing something wrong with legs dangling out from it.

Pretty much. Sadly, convincing yourself that your plan to hide under a bed is foolproof doesn't make it so.

 

[Absinthe]

A is probably the most dangerous option in the long run. Shooting out the light when there are guns drawn will give the knights a good reason to break a few skulls. If we get out, there'll be questions about the missing people, one of the girls will tell all etc. What a mess

There's still no evidence that the knights have their guns drawn, you know. There is only one knight so far who drew a gun, and Nathaniel already grabbed his gun-arm to keep him from shooting. I know exaggerating details is a popular pastime when making an argument, but let's stick to the facts here. Besides, the knights should know trigger discipline and avoid firing blindly into the darkness (risking considerable friendly fire and collateral damage) just to get a few kids. B and C are the options that will give the knights a good reason to break a few skulls, not A.

E is the most realistic option. If Andrew/Scotty get skewered, I doubt the knights will hang around for long. We'll also have a story to tell.

E is the most failure-prone option of the two. If one of the girls panics, does something, or so much as breathes loudly, we will all get caught. If the priest has in fact noticed us just now as MC suspects, we will get caught. If any of the knights around here decide to have a look around this room, we will get caught. If Andrew and Scotty get questioned and mention us, the knights could look for us, and we will still get caught. So E is actually pretty risky.

Meanwhile in A we are sure to escape the room and will have a head start on the knights and there is a branching path right down the corridor for us to start losing them in side-paths. And since we do not want to lose Rain, we should really try to escape these bad guys.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Basically he's already committed to voting E, so he interprets all evidence in the light most favorable to E.

Untrue. I just see too many problems with A (our leg should we need to run for a long time per treave's response and the idea that someone might get hurt in the chaos from our turning out the lights in an already violent situation with guns drawn) and no real gain from D other than "looking badass". We also don't really know the intention of these men, so attacking them in any way would seem an overreaction until we know more.

I'm a known flopper, so your accusations that I am just stubbornly stuck on E won't convince many people.

If you could have given me a convincing argument for how we could almost certainly escape unharmed in A over the past few pages, I would pick it. Instead, you're assuming I'm arguing in bad faith and dismissing my doubts offhand by repeatedly saying "your doubts don't concern me". Sorry, but where I come from that doesn't make for a convincing argument.

To paraphrase your other points as you have mine, your argument amounts to: "nothing will go wrong when we turn out the lights on these super disciplined knights that just pulled a gun on a child! we can run a marathon on our bum leg and even if we can't, the expert ruin diver knights will be too afraid of ruin traps to chase a few children even if a noble demands that the find his son! the monk can see us already with his magic powers that I am certain exist because he knew someone was outside a door! lambchop just won't listen to reason!"

 

[Absinthe]

Okay, you want to the A scenario for success, that's reasonable:

1. Shooting the lantern is an easy target, we're sure to make that shot.
2. Throwing the knights into disarray would make it easier for us to sneak out, and we will succeed on that escape. Treave also confirmed we would make it out with a head start.
   
3. There is a branching path right down the corridor, from which point we can begin losing the knights in the labyrinthine side paths of the ruins.

It's as easy that. Treave has already confirmed that we can run for now, and that our risks of falling will gradually rise the more keep running. So our goal as soon as we're out the door should be to take winding side paths over straight paths to make them lose us, and we should be in the clear.

The knights shouldn't fire if we vote A because they should know basic trigger discipline and shooting blindly into the darkness carries a high risk of friendly fire and collateral damage. I just don't think they want kids dead that badly. There is only one knight who drew a gun, and Nathaniel has already grabbed a hold of his gun-arm to keep him from shooting. So the odds of blind firing, are quite low. I've mentioned this a number of times before, yet it has slipped your mind yet again. Curious. Curious. And I made it clear our goal is to lose them in the side paths, not to out-run them (something you also seem to have persistent difficulty remembering, no matter how many times I mention it).

So, are you flopping? I'd be impressed if you did.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

You just made the same points you did over the past few pages.

Shooting the lantern is an easy target, we're sure to make that shot.

No one is arguing that it isn't. (Though really, I doubt I could do it.)

Throwing the knights into disarray would make it easier for us to sneak out, and we will succeed on that escape. Treave confirmed we would make it out with a head start. That negates the argument that the knights are so much faster than us

No, it means that they are in disarray. It isn't them chasing us down a corridor.

There is a branching path right down the corridor, from which point we can begin losing the knights in the labyrinthine side paths of the ruins.

The hallways have magic lights that will follow us. If they want to know where we went, they just need to go down the corridor that has a light.

I have said all this before as you have your points. I need to go to sleep. Feel free to do another victory dance about how my arguments are floundering because I won't stay here going round in circles with you though.

 

[Absinthe]

Hm, you didn't flop. What a surprise. No, I think you're committed to E. You're just trying to turn this argument into a game where it's the other side's burden to convince you and your job to remain unconvinced. It's pretty easy to win an argument with those kinds of goalposts, after all.

And here are Treave's words on A:

Your running speed will not be significantly impaired, but the chances of a fall gradually increases the longer you run. Getting to the door shouldn't be an issue if you keep a low profile - you're not exactly dashing out immediately. You'll definitely get a headstart over the knights if [emphasis added] they choose to pursue you.

So we do get a head start on the knights, yes. This is explicitly confirmed.

We already know the magic lights don't go everywhere. And there are things like doors and collapsing ceilings in these ruins that make it hard for them to chase us. You're also operating under the assumption that the knights will be really eager to drop everything and run right after us. Treave, how likely are the ruins' lights to expose us? And could we please have a bit more time before votes are locked?

 

[Nevill]

Clearly, there are reasons that A isn't guaranteed to succeed, as many as there are reasons that E isn't guaranteed to succeed.

Which is why everyone who isn't keen on autistic repeating of the same arguments ad nauseum should vote for D that we can all agree would work exactly as advertised!

 

[Egosphere]

There's still no evidence that the knights have their guns drawn, you know. There is only one knight so far who drew a gun, and Nathaniel already grabbed his gun-arm to keep him from shooting. I know exaggerating details is a popular pastime when making an argument, but let's stick to the facts here. Besides, the knights should know trigger discipline and avoid firing blindly into the darkness (risking considerable friendly fire and collateral damage) just to get a few kids. B and C are the options that will give the knights a good reason to break a few skulls, not A.

It takes 1 second to draw a gun, and I don't trust Nathaniel's STR to prevent anything.

A gun has been drawn and a knight has been slashed, these are the facts. Shooting out the lights will complete the clusterfuck. The lights will go out with a sharp pang, so I wouldn't put it past the knights to think they're being ambushed. Sure, we'll probably escape, but there may be plenty of blood spilled. Also, since everyone's convinced Rasputin is some sorcerer, if we do decide to hit the lamp and run, we'd better not linger in the village for too long - take Rain and go, preferably without getting into any conversations with anyone.

I have A as my 2nd choice because it will lead to a very exciting series of unfortunate events, not because its a good option

 

[Absinthe]

It takes 1 second to draw a gun, and I don't trust Nathaniel's STR to prevent anything. A gun has been drawn and a knight has been slashed, these are the facts.

They're trained knights, not your local militia. These guys know trigger discipline.

Shooting out the lights will complete the clusterfuck.

That's the plan yes.

The lights will go out with a sharp pang, so I wouldn't put it past the knights to think they're being ambushed. Sure, we'll probably escape, but there may be plenty of blood spilled.

This I doubt. I mentioned this several times before: Firing blindly into the darkness has a really high chance of collateral damage and friendly fire. I don't think they'd do it.

Also, since everyone's convinced Rasputin is some sorcerer, if we do decide to hit the lamp and run, we'd better not linger in the village for too long - take Rain and go, preferably without getting into any conversations with anyone.

I'm actually down for taking Rain and going. And I have an ugly and strong suspicion that E and D means we end up losing Rain.

 

[Absinthe]

Clearly, there are reasons that A isn't guaranteed to succeed, as many as there are reasons that E isn't guaranteed to succeed.

Which is why everyone who isn't keen on autistic repeating of the same arguments ad nauseum should vote for D that we can all agree would work exactly as advertised!

Nevill, would you be so kind as to present your reasoning for why you favor A? I feel like it might be helpful if someone else contributed their 2 cents to the A side of the discuss here.

 

[Nevill]

For the record, my heart is still with A. D is more of a show of solidarity with Comrade Bulltika.

Plus, I dislike it when the arguments for my preferred option are getting stupid. Makes me question myself.

I was willing to chance running for it. Shooting in the dark is disastrous; I doubt the soldiers with their commander present would shoot blindly; they'd risk hitting Rasputin and each other. I also believe that we can get away, though I am under no impression that everyone else can. Which would mean our identity will become known and if anyone cares to follow us to the village they will have no trouble finding us.

...which is one of the reasons I think we can lose them here and now. Why chase a kid through the labyrinthine corridors and chance getting lost or worse when you can question their not-quite-buddies, come to their house and have a talk with their parents?

That's my read on the situation, anyway, and I am prepared to accept the risks that may come with it, should it get traction.

 

[Baltika9]

==Poll===
A - 5
B - 0
C - 0
D - 5
E - 10

Votes

ERYFKRAD - A>C
Absinthe - A
Esquilax- A
Tigranes - A>E
hello friend- A

Baltika9 - D
Nahel - D
Kipeci - D>A
oscar - D>E
Nevill - D

ItsChon - E
Egosphere - E>A
Grimgravy - E>A
Azira - E
Lambchop19 - E>D
CappenVarra - E>A
Kz3r0 - E
asxetos - E
Life of the Party - E>D
A bear named spigot - E

========

"We must be responsible and look after the baby!"

A couple weeks later

"wow screw the baby there's a bearded guy *swoon*"

Hey, no one's trying to screw the baby, okay? Good grief.

I'm sorry, little one. It's a close call, but you know how I am with bearded mentors.


Serious answer, though. We're pretty short on knowledge of her enemies, the secrets of the Tower, and the ability to effect these things right now. Father Grigory is an avenue to both, plus there's the potential that he's linked to the people that killed her parents, and we might be able to sabotage them from within.

So, yeah, flop to D guys!

Edit:

Plus, I dislike it when the arguments for my preferred option are getting stupid. Makes me question myself.

Nevill's right, tho.