Card-Based Marvel's Midnight Suns - Marvel universe card-based tactical RPG from Firaxis

[mediocrepoet]

Theoretically, only Nico Minoru is a D- (more like Z-)list character. Magik has had 4 comic runs and is Colossus' sister (+ she appeared in a recent movie), Robbie Reyes is Ghost Rider (not the most known one, but he's him), Captain Marvel had her own movie recently (a bad one, even by Marvel standards, but hey), Doctor Strange and Iron Man are two of the most popular Marvel characters. Blade is a bit of a weird case. He was very popular 20ish years ago but I have no idea what has been happening with him in the comics lately. Even then, he has 3 whole movies. However, you wouldn't know most of these people if you are a casual Marvel fan who has only seen the contemporary movies.

Maybe. I mean, eventually you get to people I knew, but originally, I was like: I guess comic super fans would be jizzing over this cast of literally whos? Half the time I was like: are these real characters or did they just make them up for the game? Oh there's also Blade, Spiderman, etc.

 

[Lacrymas]

I thought Nico, Magik and Robbie were made up too. Even a friend of mine who is a bigger comic book fan than me had no idea who they were before we googled them.

 

[deuxhero]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

 

[mediocrepoet]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

FWIW, I don't really know who Luke Cage or Falcon are either.

I think using names other than the majors as anything other than smaller parts like later additions or cameos, is a risk, because of this. I tend to know more about nerd subculture than most non-comic fans, and I have no idea who you're talking about except for Blade and that Robby is apparently some version of Ghost Rider.

 

[Jaedar]

I thought Nico, Magik and Robbie were made up too. Even a friend of mine who is a bigger comic book fan than me had no idea who they were before we googled them.

Just assume everyone has a real comic book appearance. Assume even generic mook 37 appeared once in The amazing midnight suns #874.

 

[Morpheus Kitami]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

FWIW, I don't really know who Luke Cage or Falcon are either.

I think using names other than the majors as anything other than smaller parts like later additions or cameos, is a risk, because of this. I tend to know more about nerd subculture than most non-comic fans, and I have no idea who you're talking about except for Blade and that Robby is apparently some version of Ghost Rider.

Luke Cage was the character Marvel made to cash in on the blaxsploitation craze in the '70s. I think he had a TV series like a decade ago. For some strange reason he always pops up in games like this.
Falcon to my knowledge is just Captain America's bootleg sidekick/replacement. He also had a TV series recently, not that anyone watched it. They keep trying to push him into a Carol Danvers level of popularity, but they keep failing.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

I think Nico was primarily chosen because her power-set pretty naturally lends itself to the card-based gameplay. I don't know that she's as Z list as you guys make out. Runaways was a pretty big deal when it came out as far as comics go, and I believe there was a recent TV adaptation of it as well. But, yeah she's definitely not Iron Man or Spider-man level of popularity.

I still don't totally understand how this game flopped so badly. As I've said before I'm presumably the prime market for this game: I like capeshit stuff well enough, I like digital card games, and I like Jake Solomon's work, and yet I had zero intent on purchasing this. AND THEN once someone gifted it to me and I finally gave it a go I ended up really liking the combat and sinking a couple hundred hours into it. I can't help but wonder how many people there are out there like me, but who were never gifted the game to give it a spin. Just an epic failure on the part of marketing to sell the game.

 

[deuxhero]

Runaways never really endured past its initial run, and Nico's power set outside of the staff is just "magic", in a game that already has a bunch of magic users.

Really, it's not any wonder why it failed. Deliberately ugly women, inability to make a female player character because sex being an actual thing is verboten in liberal ideology, very boring base sections that take forever, random ass cast, refusal to show clear gameplay at announcement meaning everyone sees "card game" and dismisses it as shovelware, realistic graphics but no MCU faces/voices, and coming out by the time even the most deluded realized the MCU was in the shitter.

 

[Lacrymas]

In terms of sex appeal, it's a game for women and queer men ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ However, that's not why it failed, it failed simply because it's not an action game in the ostensibly action-oriented setting that is the Marvel universe. We are very far away from when the X-Men represented marginalized groups and had shockingly radical politics even in the animated series (which are still staggering to this day). Slow and pondering gameplay + talking about our feelings and experiences is not Marvel's current MO and image.

 

[J1M]

Theoretically, only Nico Minoru is a D- (more like Z-)list character. Magik has had 4 comic runs and is Colossus' sister (+ she appeared in a recent movie), Robbie Reyes is Ghost Rider (not the most known one, but he's him), Captain Marvel had her own movie recently (a bad one, even by Marvel standards, but hey), Doctor Strange and Iron Man are two of the most popular Marvel characters. Blade is a bit of a weird case. He was very popular 20ish years ago but I have no idea what has been happening with him in the comics lately. Even then, he has 3 whole movies. However, you wouldn't know most of these people if you are a casual Marvel fan who has only seen the contemporary movies.

Anyone who uses plus and minus for letter grades, this implying they can actually sort things into ~15 distinct quality levels is embarrassing themselves.

Even the game makes it very clear that real ghost rider is elsewhere and Robbie is a diversity pretender.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not D- like a grade in school, it refers to A-list, B-list, etc. celebrities.

 

[J1M]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

Major in comics does not translate to major in other mediums. I am assuming that she was introduced after the 90s cartoon, which would be the litmus test for well-known.

 

[Lacrymas]

1975.

 

[J1M]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

I think Nico was primarily chosen because her power-set pretty naturally lends itself to the card-based gameplay. I don't know that she's as Z list as you guys make out. Runaways was a pretty big deal when it came out as far as comics go, and I believe there was a recent TV adaptation of it as well. But, yeah she's definitely not Iron Man or Spider-man level of popularity.

I still don't totally understand how this game flopped so badly. As I've said before I'm presumably the prime market for this game: I like capeshit stuff well enough, I like digital card games, and I like Jake Solomon's work, and yet I had zero intent on purchasing this. AND THEN once someone gifted it to me and I finally gave it a go I ended up really liking the combat and sinking a couple hundred hours into it. I can't help but wonder how many people there are out there like me, but who were never gifted the game to give it a spin. Just an epic failure on the part of marketing to sell the game.

It flopped because:
a) it didn't follow through on the core fantasy it promised of getting to befriend and date the avengers in the X-Men mansion (no attractive females, only romance in the game is between 2 NPCs)
b) the market correctly punished the extremely cynical approach they took to cosmetics and microtransactions

The fact that it happened to have a fun card game inside it is just a coincidence.

 

[J1M]

1975.

Probably deserved her spot in the game. Not a well-known character.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

What I remember from pre-release is that the "card-based" aspect (still in the thread's title) made people think it would be some type of card game, so maybe people weren't sure about paying AAA price for a card spinoff that was delayed twice(?). I dont think the team composition was an issue, it has big names like Spooderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk and Dr Strange, and some minor ones or big ones that don't get much attention nowadays.

 

[sser]

I've not played the game yet (but do have it in the wings); as someone who likes card games, dumb cape shit, and is a fan of Solomon's work, I think I'm a pretty good audience for it yet I never bought it (now have it via humble bundle tho). I think taking highly mobile action heroes and forcing them to fight in phonebooth-sized arenas is the crux of the issue more than anything. You can see it strains believability (disbelief already being suspended) when you have guys like Spider-Man or Captain Marvel just kinda chilling on the ground, when the entire aesthetic of these characters is their wide-ranging mobility and power. Perhaps the game would've worked better with a more normalized cast involved, those "low-tier" Punisher/Daredevil archetypes that beat up alley thugs and what not. After playing a few 'smaller' phonebooth type card games like Fights in Tight Spaces, I think this actually could have worked quite well.

No. The game makes you play as D-tier characters initially and it is a relief when Peter Parker gets added to the crew. The successful characters are archetypes.

I'm looking more for reasons why the game flopped, not the game itself.

The wider framework of the game undercuts the heroes in front of customers who want to larp as those heroes. In your average customer base for superhero stuff, how many people want to play as Spider-Man in a phonebooth? The arena itself constrains these characters to the point where their entire being and archetypes are subdued. Look at it from your average customer's perspective: you look at this, and then you look at say the actual Spider-Man games. One is an arena fighter with no geographical depth and artificial mobility, the other understands the fun of the hero and lets you actually do what the hero's archetype is all about.

It could just be card games aren't ready to try something AA-level, but I think most people just didn't like the arena aesthetic that very badly strained the believability of the heroes in said environment. This is just a guess on my part. I think if you put out AA-level graphics and make appeals to the larger customer spectrum, then you have to go all-in. For your average grognard types, they won't care about the believability and will enjoy the combat for what it is, but for the average user chilling on the couch they'll probably think it sucks and wonder why xyz-hero only barely functions like they should, not understanding the need for abstraction and balancing. Just speaking for myself, I would have made it a cornerstone of the game to have verticality with destructible floors at a minimum, have actual scope. A flat X-axis in a superhero game is a no go.

 

[Lacrymas]

I don't think the question of why this game failed to attract a mainstream audience is a mystery to anybody who has played it. It's not a game for normies however you look at it.

 

[Jaedar]

The fact that it happened to have a fun card game inside it is just a coincidence.

They probably put in a lot of effort to make it good, so not entirely a coincidence. Considering Solomon got canned/quit after it failed, it wouldn't surprise me if he put all his social capital at firaxis at stake for taking the game in the direction it went.

I don't think the question of why this game failed to attract a mainstream audience is a mystery to anybody who has played it. It's not a game for normies however you look at it.

Considering BG3 won GOTY, I don't see how this is entirely correct. Stuff like persona, slay the spire are also really popular. I think it could have seen wide appeal for normies.

What I remember from pre-release is that the "card-based" aspect (still in the thread's title) made people think it would be some type of card game, so maybe people weren't sure about paying AAA price for a card spinoff that was delayed twice(?). I dont think the team composition was an issue, it has big names like Spooderman, Wolverine, Captain America, Iron Man, Hulk and Dr Strange, and some minor ones or big ones that don't get much attention nowadays.

From what I remember, I barely even heard of it, and when I did I automatically discarded it as some inevitably shitty corporate buzzword mtx vehicle to cash in on avengers being popular. Once I actually saw someone play the actual game it looked pretty good, but even then I still held off until a huge sale because like 70% of the playtime was not combat. I wonder if it would have been successful if not for that other avengers game that released like a year prior that really was just a shitty corporate buzzword mtx vehicle to cash in on avengers being popular.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Considering BG3 won GOTY, I don't see how this is entirely correct. Stuff like persona, slay the spire are also really popular. I think it could have seen wide appeal for normies.

Fire Emblem and XCOM as well. The games it's most similar to are popular among normies and it has a Marvel license to boot. Unless by normie we mean the people who fall asleep if a NPC has a second dialogue box, and even that feels unfair because mobile games aren't that basic anymore.

 

[Lacrymas]

Neither BG3 nor nu-XCom are like this game. This is basically Gloomhaven/Trials of Fire with a Marvel skin and a Persona-like friendship simulator thrown into the mix. On top of that, it's way more complicated than either BG3 or nu-XCom. It's actually quite shocking how good the combat is and it's definitely one of the best card-based games. The friendship simulator part is quite artificial imo, it feels gamey and the interface constantly reminds you it's a game.

 

[deuxhero]

Illyana was a very major X-men character and central to several major events of the team. Blade having to progress from vampire slayer to demon slayer isn't too absurd and fits better than Luke Cage, Falcon or any of the replacement losers as designated black guy. Nico is totally bizare though, especially with how fucked and deliberately ugly her design is in this. It's almost as though she were chosen purely because she's an Asian female, like Robbie Reyes was chosen for being Hispanic.

FWIW, I don't really know who Luke Cage or Falcon are either.

I think using names other than the majors as anything other than smaller parts like later additions or cameos, is a risk, because of this. I tend to know more about nerd subculture than most non-comic fans, and I have no idea who you're talking about except for Blade and that Robby is apparently some version of Ghost Rider.

Luke Cage was the character Marvel made to cash in on the blaxsploitation craze in the '70s.

Emphasis on was. He was a relatively popular b lister for years due to how absurd his antics were (the most famous is joining an attack on Latvia to collect the $200 that Dr. Doom failed to pay him.) and his fun duo with Iron Fist. Unfortunately Bendis, who desperately wants to be black (to the point Dwayne Mcduffie made a joke character called The Brown Bomber that looks like Bendis and has the power to transform into a superpowered black man), got ahold of him and made him into a Gordon Goodbrother all about the black community.

 

[Grunker]

Neither BG3 nor nu-XCom are like this game. This is basically Gloomhaven/Trials of Fire with a Marvel skin and a Persona-like friendship simulator thrown into the mix. On top of that, it's way more complicated than either BG3 or nu-XCom. It's actually quite shocking how good the combat is and it's definitely one of the best card-based games. The friendship simulator part is quite artificial imo, it feels gamey and the interface constantly reminds you it's a game.

I don’t disagree, but I think you vastly underestimate the role of the failure of the friendship simulator. To appeal to Persona and Comic audiences, that part was probably more important than the combat. EVERYONE crapping on it probably made it DOA, while few people cared that the combat was revolutionary.

 

[Lemming42]

Neither BG3 nor nu-XCom are like this game. This is basically Gloomhaven/Trials of Fire with a Marvel skin and a Persona-like friendship simulator thrown into the mix. On top of that, it's way more complicated than either BG3 or nu-XCom. It's actually quite shocking how good the combat is and it's definitely one of the best card-based games. The friendship simulator part is quite artificial imo, it feels gamey and the interface constantly reminds you it's a game.

Slay the Spire and other deckbuilders are very popular with the mainstream, and BG3 is a fair thing to bring up because it demonstrated that the public enjoy a) turn-based combat and b) units with distinct ability sets which can chain with each other in interesting and creative ways, both of which are present in Midnight Suns.

It has all the ingredients for a hit, but I think the problem is that most people are attracted to a game's setting and aesthetics first - BG3 had the D&D/FG license to trade on, which was clearly effective at luring people in who then went on to enjoy the game itself. Tell people there's a new deckbuilder with turn-based combat, and people will want to hear more. Tell them it's a bunch of shit Marvel characters, half of which they don't know, and people might switch off, especially since this game came out after Marvel fatigue had already enormously set in. And yeah, the friendship sim stuff probably put people off too.

 

[Infinitron]

I think the entire concept of making an ensemble-based superhero game is bad. You're making these characters mundane by forcing them into the same playing field, constrained by a unified set of mechanics and goals.