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Mass Effect 1/2: Under-rated or shit?

Roguey

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I think this is mostly in people's heads though. In third person shooters with no cover, the moles are mostly out in the open for you to pop and maybe they strafe a bit. In cover system the moles pop in and out from an object instead of strafe. Seems like a very marginal difference to me. The big problem is that in both types I always have perfect situational awareness (which dots for enemy radar blips makes even worse).
In my experience the moles in non-cover shooters are more aggressive. For example, Baby Jim Sterling had become so complacent in regard to cover shooters that he complained when Kane and Lynch 2 enemies would just run up and kill him instead of staying in their holes like good little moles. When it comes to its many flaws, that wasn't one of them.
 
Unwanted

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Rigggght i must be imagining things when me3 reapers starts rushing down with brutes - teleporting banshees and sending husks to hug you. I think m. Efffect isnt perfect but it isnt terrible game material. I reserve those for movie tie ins and countless halo clones plus shit console ports.
 

ForeverStynes

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Mass Effect is one of the most bafflingly overrated series of all time. If it actually sold as much as people talked about it, Bioware wouldn't be in so much trouble.

of course it a quadribllion dollar franchis AAA packag!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Spectacle

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Successful troll is successful!

And that's despite everyone in this thread knowing fully well that they are being trolled...
 
Self-Ejected

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I don't want to call ME shit, because then I would be already overrating it. Back in 2007/08 this thread would be axed already, but it seems that Biosheeps does it's infiltration well in Codex.

And yet people are all up in arms about fascist RPGWatchwitz moderation whenever a troll is nuked :roll:
 

Zed

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I don't even remember the original Mass Effect. It was probably shit?
Mass Effect 2 had that alien that killed you when you banged her. OTOH that was the only memorable thing about it.
 

racofer

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I don't even remember the original Mass Effect. It was probably shit?
Mass Effect 2 had that alien that killed you when you banged her. OTOH that was the only memorable thing about it.

Don't forget...

bir5v.jpg
 

Andyman Messiah

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Anyone who says in this thread that ME or DA is anything except shit is a AIDS-infested schmuck.
I see it now. I will never change my signature.

Official Andyman Gamespot ratings:

Mass Effect 1: :1/5:
Mass Effect 2: :3/5:
Mass Effect 3: :2/5:

Dragon Age 1: :3/5:
Dragon Age 2: :2/5:
 

Turjan

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I don't even remember the original Mass Effect. It was probably shit?
Mass Effect 2 had that alien that killed you when you banged her. OTOH that was the only memorable thing about it.

Don't forget...

bir5v.jpg
Hmm, funny enough, I nearly forgot about this one. So in my case, it was not memorable. Extremely silly, yes.
 

Valestein

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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In
Space Terminator's design is mind bogglingly retarded. If it's meant to be the core of a ship, then what's with the eyes,beam cannon and arms? It makes about as much sense as someone's lungs having tentacles.
 

Ion Prothon II

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Papa Môlé

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People saying ME2 is okay or good and ME1 is bad must be fucking nuts or trolling. Let's see in ME2 we have: no helmet toggle, no ability to crouch, cooldowns on all powers, extremely stripped down character system, blurry cutscenes and bloom everywhere, limited weapon upgrading with ammo being tied to skill ranks (wtf?), no grenades at all, more emphasis on sexy npcs and bullshit romances, ludicriously contrived premise to explain why you need to rebuild your pc (shep is space jesus?), simplified squad command system in which you can now only order move/attack and reform, planet exploration mostly replaced with tedious mining minigame, removal of omnigel so you're forced to deal with other new even more boring minigames as well, no more weapon heating (instead weapons are now ammo based like every other game), and more focus on action with less ways like the first had to use decryption or electronics to solve problems. The first is a pretty solid "good for what it is" recentgen RPG. I could even mistake it for a PC game if I squinted hard enough. The second is flagrantly a console action game with a thin paste of rpg elements layered on it.
 

ChristofferC

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The people who think that ME2 is better than ME1 think that it's better for what it is. They'd rather play a decent dumbed down shooter than a bad RPG (I personally think ME2 is a horrible shooter though).
 

Telengard

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Sorry, ran out of time couldn't finish the third part of the epic pic trilogy - finding internet pics is surprisingly time-consuming. Might be too late now, but whatever. Because it's time. Bring out the wayback machine, because it's time to head back to: NEVERWINTER NIGHTS.

Okay, everyone who every dicked around with the Neverwinter Nights editor already knows how it works. But for those who didn't, it works by giving you a grid which you drop pre-assembled blocks of tiles down onto. Now then, as soon as they jacked stairs into the level editor, you get this (you'll have to scroll down a little to get to the stairs): http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/191/index/5544421/1 A size and shape that anyone following this should by now by intimately familiar with. You will also note that the balcony above is the same width as the stairs, and the hallway beyond is same as them both.

Which is only logical. NWN is on a grid, and if you make a gridline stair in a single square, you end up with a 10x10 grid square stair.

If we then move on to take a closer look at their specific design decisions here http://www.giantbomb.com/neverwinter-nights/61-9953/all-images/52-177183/nwn__3_/51-203232/ and here http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ad_d/nwn/screens/nwn_01.jpg and hereand the second pic here http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2walkthrough.Detail&id=22 you will notice some familiarly-size crates are conveniently stacked around. Which of course means that it's now time for a fight, and that we have to hide - whoops, wrong game (sorry, couldn't resist). What it actually means is those large crates aren't a new, innovative design decision in the modern games. They were using those crates all along. They even frequently stack the crates back then. The only difference is in the newer games the crates can be used as cover.

If you take a look here http://xtreview.com/images/article4/nwn1.jpg at the tiles on the floor, you will notice a similar size and concept to the tiles in the newer games.

Now then, if you scroll down a ways on a Dragon Age Origins http://guides.gamepressure.com/dragonageorigins/guide.asp?ID=8513 you'll see some familiar looking long crates. But what we really want to get into here is the pillars. Take a close look at the walls. You'll notice that at regular intervals on many walls, a pillar juts out a short distance from the wall. Scroll down to the dungeons in this page http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3462975&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=10 and you'll find the same idea. The pillars change, but the general shape and spacing remains. In the latest, however, many of their levels are no longer directly walled, but are defined by fences and the like, and instead are surrounded by a shell to provide an illusion of greater space. You have the same trudgeable area as before, but the space appears grander due to the space between the fence and the shell. But when walls return, the concept returns, as per the Dragon Age II link above.

This thread also notes a number of DA II copy past of textures and design elements http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/7534892/3

Now, what effect does all this have? Like any design decision, there are many effect, but there are 3 that are particularly relevant to the point.

  1. In using large blocks over a small space, the number of shapes that are possible is small. To illustrate, take the 1x5 vs 1x5 balcony fight in Mass Effect II cited earlier. Essentially, you're fighting in a 5x5 room of which you can move on a 1x5 balcony. Bioware can't extend that 1x5 balcony to 2x5, because two 2x5s in a 5x5 space would put the opponents right on top of each other. They can only extend or shorten the balcony sideways. But only to a certain degree, as each point they move it extends or retracts the balcony by 10 feet. If instead their boxes were half the size, then they would have a 10x10 grid to play around with in the same space. They could extend out from a 2x10 to a 3x10 or retract to a 1x10 (though the Bioware AI would likely have difficulty with a 1x), without changing the concept of the fight, and you could also extend and contract the balcony sideways to a great degree. What's more, you can do a combination of both. Then, too, if their concepts for basic design allowed for angles, that would add another multiple to the available shapes.
  2. That they use commonly shaped building blocks across all their games doesn't do anything to the game in and of itself. But added onto their use of a formulaic story, recycled plot points, recycled character types, common design elements, and the same voice actors, it can be difficult to tell one of their games from another if you play two of them close together and, you know, you kind of fall into a half doze when one of your companions in doing a long whinge.
  3. One of the advantages of common blocks is you can split the design of a space over several different people, since all teams automatically always know the size of everything in the game, and a separated design team can make decals of a large size without having to do any editing for location, and also without having to worry about someone changing the size of the locale, etc. But, this does have the added effect of causing the designs to tend to be made in even block lengths. (ie you'll find lots of decals of 1 block or 2 blocks in length)
To put it another way, you can picture their level design as using large duplo building blocks across a small area. That it's such a small area and they use such large blocks limits the kinds of shapes they can achieve, which lends their games a uniform structure. Of course, they could decide to use legos tomorrow, and greatly increase the number of shapes available to them, or they could go erector set and also have angles available.

Or in other words, if you always draw your levels from the same duplo building blocks, your games will all be of the same blockiness.

Now, what does all of this matter? Not a lot. There was no opinion attached to it. I only stated it to establish the fact that that is how they build their levels so that I could make my point. My point being, they do this, so they lose their excuse for copy/paste. Even an indie loses points for copy/paste in the reviews. A AAA should be losing a whole letter grade at least just for this one issue for something like the Dragon Age II fiasco.
 
Unwanted

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It doesnt matter guise he's just stating an opinion someone claimed he pulled from his ass and he worked hard to prove it wasnt the case. In other words, butthurt detected :smug:
 
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People saying ME2 is okay or good and ME1 is bad must be fucking nuts or trolling. Let's see in ME2 we have: no helmet toggle, no ability to crouch, cooldowns on all powers, extremely stripped down character system, blurry cutscenes and bloom everywhere, limited weapon upgrading with ammo being tied to skill ranks (wtf?), no grenades at all, more emphasis on sexy npcs and bullshit romances, ludicriously contrived premise to explain why you need to rebuild your pc (shep is space jesus?), simplified squad command system in which you can now only order move/attack and reform, planet exploration mostly replaced with tedious mining minigame, removal of omnigel so you're forced to deal with other new even more boring minigames as well, no more weapon heating (instead weapons are now ammo based like every other game), and more focus on action with less ways like the first had to use decryption or electronics to solve problems. The first is a pretty solid "good for what it is" recentgen RPG. I could even mistake it for a PC game if I squinted hard enough. The second is flagrantly a console action game with a thin paste of rpg elements layered on it.

I don't think that I've ever played a game that had worse gameplay than Mass Effect 1.

As a Soldier, all I ever had was the Assault Rifle and 3 other disposable weapons that had the same sound when shot and only varied in some 1% statistics and fucking reskins. They had no ammo and only overheated, and the only skill you had was "Overkill" where they wouldn't overheat at all for a short while. And the only thing you did in that game was shooting your way through the "planet", which was essentially a gigantic, linear corridor, while killing homogenous enemies with inflated HP meters with LPM spam with short breaks due to overheating. Good job BioWhores. Don't know if it mattered, but I only managed to do 1 side quest(which consisted of Mako->small corridor facility); after that, I just wanted to finish this turd already. After reading that every single other sidequest looks exactly the same, I would trash those turd disks to pieces if I ever had those:smug:

I'd have to be a BioDrone pretty dumb to find any pleasure in this.

At least they somewhat addressed those issues in ME2. It still sucked, but at least had things like different weapons that actually behaved differently, different ammo types for different situations, abilities like Adrenaline Rush kept it more entertaining. At least to a degree where I wasn't completely bored to tears.

ME1 is a horrible, bland popamole shooter that's your typical BioWare stuff, and RPG-wise isn't any different than ME2. ME2 is a much better shooter that's writing-wise still the same shitty BioWare stuff, and did the companion part a bit better(Mordin).
 
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RPG-wise isn't any different than ME2

Define "RPG-wise" (possibly storyfag detected)

What I meant was that, in this case, BioWare fans like to name "RPG" as such when pointing out that "ME1 is more RPG than ME2" due to having statistics, inventory and item management, loot system, XP and leveling changes, health regen etc.

ME2 is the same shit as ME1, they just dropped the pretense. Both were popamole shooters - inventory, looting enemies and stats isn't RPG; especially since those stats were mostly insignificant "1% more accuracy". Meanwhile, what can be considered as RPG is the same: there are still C&C in both games (equally limited), (not so) multiple ways of dealing with the problems, the same limited dialogue system, the same "emotional engagement" with companions' personal stories, etc.

They are both very weak RPG-shooter hybrids, it's just that stats =/= more RPG.
 

sea

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Okay, everyone who every dicked around with the Neverwinter Nights editor already knows how it works. But for those who didn't, it works by giving you a grid which you drop pre-assembled blocks of tiles down onto. Now then, as soon as they jacked stairs into the level editor, you get this (you'll have to scroll down a little to get to the stairs): http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/191/index/5544421/1 A size and shape that anyone following this should by now by intimately familiar with. You will also note that the balcony above is the same width as the stairs, and the hallway beyond is same as them both.
The newer tools don't force you onto a grid if you don't want to use it. My guess is NWN had this done to make development easier, especially for modders. After all, NWN's appeal was primarily as a toolkit for making your own D&D modules, and DMs being able to create their own environments in-game was a huge, huge draw.

Meanwhile Dragon Age was focused more on looking nice and detailed rather than being user-friendly, same with KotOR, Jade Empire, etc. and thus they don't feature such limitations. You also have to realize that Dragon Age was in development for six years or something ridiculous - the early screens basically looked like KotOR or Jade Empire. The boxy interior levels could easily be a legacy of them building much of the game on older tools.

Ostagar: http://assets1.ignimgs.com/2004/05/12/may04_dragonage_051204_002-830736_640w.jpg

Some temple thing: http://assets2.ignimgs.com/2004/05/12/may04_dragonage_051204_000-830734_640w.jpg

If we then move on to take a closer look at their specific design decisions here http://www.giantbomb.com/neverwinter-nights/61-9953/all-images/52-177183/nwn__3_/51-203232/ and here http://www.rpgamer.com/games/ad_d/nwn/screens/nwn_01.jpg and hereand the second pic here http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=NWN2walkthrough.Detail&id=22 you will notice some familiarly-size crates are conveniently stacked around.
Crates are the de factor standard filler item in basically every game ever made. Got an environment you need to fill up? Add crates! This goes back to the original Doom. How does BioWare using crates in all their games equate to reusing assets? In addition, games like Mass Effect have to take these into account even more, because now levels have to be designed with cover and line of sight in mind, rather than just aesthetics and pathfinding.

Now then, if you scroll down a ways on a Dragon Age Origins http://guides.gamepressure.com/dragonageorigins/guide.asp?ID=8513 you'll see some familiar looking long crates. But what we really want to get into here is the pillars. Take a close look at the walls. You'll notice that at regular intervals on many walls, a pillar juts out a short distance from the wall. Scroll down to the dungeons in this page http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3462975&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=10 and you'll find the same idea. The pillars change, but the general shape and spacing remains.
Yes, Dragon Age uses fixed models of a "10x10" spacing for walls and floors (and some are marked as 3x3, which are 3x bigger than the standard ones). The pillars are used to hide gaps in walls and to make flat spaces look more visually interesting. This is the same as pretty much any other game, it's just that in Dragon Age a lot of these features are already built into the models themselves. For example:

qOONk.jpg


Notice how the walls here are all the same spacing - it's pretty obvious if you look for it. However, the only real reason this is actually noticeable is because the trim on each wall segment is built into the model itself, and there are plenty of other sets of models that don't do this, albeit usually the outdoor ones. Without the trim there at regular intervals, suddenly it becomes much more difficult to notice the fixed size of everything. Again - there is no grid here, only the illusion of it, and it's probably there both for ease of production as well as to help players more accurately judge physical dimensions in the game world during combat.

This thread also notes a number of DA II copy past of textures and design elements http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/141/index/7534892/3
Dragon Age II was also rushed. It even reused many, many animations and models from Origins, with only minor touch-up work done on it. Many areas in Dragon Age II felt barren and lifeless because BioWare obviously just slapped them together as quickly as possible rather than taking the time to add lots of nice detail (though there are some exceptions). We all know this - and while it's indicative of the things you've describe, I have to qualify that by saying it probably wouldn't have been that way if they hadn't had to get the game out ASAP. For the record, many late-game levels in Dragon Age, like Fort Drakon and the Arl of Denerim's Estate, suffered from a lack of detail and care, as did KotOR's Star Forge for that matter.

In using large blocks over a small space, the number of shapes that are possible is small. To illustrate, take the 1x5 vs 1x5 balcony fight in Mass Effect II cited earlier. Essentially, you're fighting in a 5x5 room of which you can move on a 1x5 balcony. Bioware can't extend that 1x5 balcony to 2x5, because two 2x5s in a 5x5 space would put the opponents right on top of each other. They can only extend or shorten the balcony sideways. But only to a certain degree, as each point they move it extends or retracts the balcony by 10 feet. If instead their boxes were half the size, then they would have a 10x10 grid to play around with in the same space. They could extend out from a 2x10 to a 3x10 or retract to a 1x10 (though the Bioware AI would likely have difficulty with a 1x), without changing the concept of the fight, and you could also extend and contract the balcony sideways to a great degree. What's more, you can do a combination of both. Then, too, if their concepts for basic design allowed for angles, that would add another multiple to the available shapes.
Welcome to the challenges of level design. These are considerations in ANY GAME WITH LIMITED ART ASSETS. However, to say that Unreal Engine is limited to a 1x5 room vs. a 5x5 room is also just plain wrong, because as I said, the grid is only a tool to help with creating levels - not a limitation on what is possible.

And protip - you can freely scale all static meshes in Unreal along X, Y and Z, so you can always make your stairs bigger or smaller of you want. This can lead to visual anomalies like stretched textures so isn't always recommended, but it's there if you want/need it. You don't see it done a lot in Mass Effect because, presumably, BioWare prefer a consistent look.

That they use commonly shaped building blocks across all their games doesn't do anything to the game in and of itself. But added onto their use of a formulaic story, recycled plot points, recycled character types, common design elements, and the same voice actors, it can be difficult to tell one of their games from another if you play two of them close together and, you know, you kind of fall into a half doze when one of your companions in doing a long whinge.
Developers stick to formulas because a) they know they work b) they're familiar to fans and won't alienate anyone c) the same people work between games and have finite ideas. I agree that BioWare could afford to branch out, but as a business making mass-market entertainment, it's also probably not a major concern at this point... and I'm not sure that has much on the tiled look of some of their art assets.

One of the advantages of common blocks is you can split the design of a space over several different people, since all teams automatically always know the size of everything in the game, and a separated design team can make decals of a large size without having to do any editing for location, and also without having to worry about someone changing the size of the locale, etc. But, this does have the added effect of causing the designs to tend to be made in even block lengths. (ie you'll find lots of decals of 1 block or 2 blocks in length)
Level designers do what they're told, and usually simply follow the specified documentation. Most teams have people responsible for different things, i.e. one guy does the base geometry, one adds detailed props, one adds lighting effects. Ensuring visual consistency is more a matter of the source art itself and refinement through iteration, rather than individual tastes of the people building levels.

To put it another way, you can picture their level design as using large duplo building blocks across a small area. That it's such a small area and they use such large blocks limits the kinds of shapes they can achieve, which lends their games a uniform structure. Of course, they could decide to use legos tomorrow, and greatly increase the number of shapes available to them, or they could go erector set and also have angles available.
This statement shows me you have absolutely no idea how most 3D game environments are created or what is possible with the tools available today. Your analogy is bullshit. As I said, I doubt you have ever actually used any game SDK extensively. If you're going solely based on the NWN tools, you are colossally out of date.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
inventory, looting enemies and stats isn't RPG

O rly?

DEFINE RPG THEN :troll:

Seriously, all you ME2 fans, just admit that you had no patience for the RPG elements in ME1, rather than trying to deny that they are RPG elements.

It's okay, we get it, you've grown up and no longer have time for that shit. WE UNDERSTAND. :smug:
 

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