Mass Effect Legendary Edition remaster trilogy

[KVVRR]

I'll say it again, the reason devs hold their core audience in such contempt is that for one they know you're all idiots who will buy their shit regardless. And for two you are not the primary means for them making money. Essentially, you are not the customer. You are a front for the true customer. They make the core of their money from stocks. Has anyone checked to see the salt from that gamestop stuff? I don't have Twitter and treat it like a plague at the best of times. So someone else will have to go digging. But I'm sure Soyer and co have a lot to say about that.

You guys buy bioware products?

 

[Lacrymas]

I'd say it's more a dissonance than anything. Her quest is all about how she's a strong, independent woman who was dealt a bad hand by being "designed as the perfect woman" by her father (yikes) and she trying to get away from that and be seen as her own person. All the while the camera is ogling her ass for our benefit. Which is it, game? That is not to say we as individuals consuming this media can't find her sexy or physically attractive, only that the game is telling us two different things about her.

"Maybe I wouldn't mind if you admired my body..." - Miranda to a male Shepard. She doesn't care, why should you?

We aren't male Shepard, we are voyeurs. Would it be okay for you to go peep at the neighbor while she's undressing because she has said something like that to her boyfriend? And even then, the context of that ass shot was completely unrelated.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Lacrymas going full retard again, I see.

 

[Lacrymas]

I'm absolutely ready to hear arguments to the contrary to what I am saying. I have no horse in this race, like I said. The talk is just really bizarre to me. Ok, even if you argue we ARE male Shepard, that doesn't really change what I am saying and the ass shot wasn't in a sexual context in the first place. I'm also very interested as to why this is specifically targeted at women. I don't clamor for half-naked or handsome men all the time, so why are people doing it for women? I don't get it.

 

[vonAchdorf]

This feels like in the good old days of the Codex, when Bioware pre-release threads grew to massive page counts. Recently Bioware was so boring, that not even the threads here took off.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

You certainly have a horse in the race, that of being contrarian for the sake of it.

The camera angle only matters insofar as it adds or detracts from the cinematic experience in that particular scene, but that's it. Those that try to frame the issue from an ethical perspective are just virtue signaling retards since the character of Miranda remains just as sexualized with or without that camera angle.

 

[Nano]

I don't clamor for half-naked or handsome men all the time

I do.

Now what?

 

[Lacrymas]

You certainly have a horse in the race, that of being contrarian for the sake of it.

The camera angle only matters insofar as it adds or detracts from the cinematic experience in that particular scene, but that's it. Those that try to frame the issue from an ethical perspective are just virtue signaling retards since the character of Miranda remains just as sexualized with or without that camera angle.

Yet we are talking about this particular ass shot and not her being sexualized in general. If we are talking about the camera angle enhancing the narrative, how exactly is her ass helping the talk about her abducted sister? Is her sister hot as well? Is the camera promising us sex as a reward for helping the sister? Or just a threesome with her sister because her family is already incest-y so who cares?

 

[FreeKaner]

People don't seem to get where "the problem" is. Yes, men are extremely sexualized in media too, the difference is Jacob was never described as designed to have sex appeal in that artbook or whatever, while Miranda was. Men do stuff and have characters while at the same time being sexy/sexualized. Women are sexy first and foremost and are treated as such by the developers themselves, proven by their own words in their own book. I am saying this as a bisexual man, so it isn't like I can't understand the appeal of a sexy woman, it's just really bizarre that a lot of people have this ridiculously exaggerated obsession with "beautiful women in video games/movies" and they "not being allowed in modern media". Not to mention that even conventionally attractive women are seen as "ugly" sometimes on this very forum. I seem to want to say I'm not "defending women's honor", I can live without women in this world so I don't feel the need to give them any special treatment.

What personality does male shephard has beyond being "SPACE G.I Joe"? I think that sexualization in video games is generally done in really juvenile and terrible ways, but the critique of it is definitely very one-sided.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

You certainly have a horse in the race, that of being contrarian for the sake of it.

The camera angle only matters insofar as it adds or detracts from the cinematic experience in that particular scene, but that's it. Those that try to frame the issue from an ethical perspective are just virtue signaling retards since the character of Miranda remains just as sexualized with or without that camera angle.

Yet we are talking about this particular ass shot and not her being sexualized in general. If we are talking about the camera angle enhancing the narrative, how exactly is her ass helping the talk about her abducted sister? Is her sister hot as well?

It doesn't, but there's no reason to frame it in ethical terms.

 

[KVVRR]

People don't seem to get where "the problem" is. Yes, men are extremely sexualized in media too, the difference is Jacob was never described as designed to have sex appeal in that artbook or whatever, while Miranda was. Men do stuff and have characters while at the same time being sexy/sexualized. Women are sexy first and foremost and are treated as such by the developers themselves, proven by their own words in their own book. I am saying this as a bisexual man, so it isn't like I can't understand the appeal of a sexy woman, it's just really bizarre that a lot of people have this ridiculously exaggerated obsession with "beautiful women in video games/movies" and they "not being allowed in modern media". Not to mention that even conventionally attractive women are seen as "ugly" sometimes on this very forum. I seem to want to say I'm not "defending women's honor", I can live without women in this world so I don't feel the need to give them any special treatment.

ehh I don't know. I don't remember this being a problem with any other female character in the game. Sure Jack and Samara's outfits are dumb as hell but Jack's supposed to be an edgelord and Samara a superhero of sorts. It fits them to look that way, and they change accordingly in 3. Or well Jack does. Did Samara even appear in 3?
I don't think anybody would say that Tali is male gaze first and a character second. I don't even think anybody would say that she's sexy outside of that thigh gap and freaks who like mask only designs (like me).
So is it really a problem if it's not even true within the original example? Jhon McMuscles in 3 is only remember for being fuckhuge and nothing else. It's just the writing being shit.

 

[Lacrymas]

What personality does male shephard has beyond being "SPACE G.I Joe"? I think that sexualization in video games is generally done in really juvenile and terrible ways, but the critique of it is definitely very one-sided.

Yeah, he's obviously a cardboard cutout, but somehow nobody is talking about his sexualization and ass shot (he did have an ass shot btw, or maybe it was Kaidan. It was either Kaiden ogling his ass in the hospital or it was fem Shep ogling Kaiden's ass. Whatever)

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll say it again, the reason devs hold their core audience in such contempt is that for one they know you're all idiots who will buy their shit regardless. And for two you are not the primary means for them making money. Essentially, you are not the customer. You are a front for the true customer. They make the core of their money from stocks. Has anyone checked to see the salt from that gamestop stuff? I don't have Twitter and treat it like a plague at the best of times. So someone else will have to go digging. But I'm sure Soyer and co have a lot to say about that.

You guys buy bioware products?

no lol.

 

[Lacrymas]

It doesn't, but there's no reason to frame it in ethical terms.

Is it an ethical issue? I see it more as a "this is a weird double standard we have in our culture and the discussion around it is bizarre. Why is that?" kind of thing. The answer to that question might lead to ethical or political issues, though.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

People don't seem to get where "the problem" is. Yes, men are extremely sexualized in media too, the difference is Jacob was never described as designed to have sex appeal in that artbook or whatever, while Miranda was. Men do stuff and have characters while at the same time being sexy/sexualized. Women are sexy first and foremost and are treated as such by the developers themselves, proven by their own words in their own book. I am saying this as a bisexual man, so it isn't like I can't understand the appeal of a sexy woman, it's just really bizarre that a lot of people have this ridiculously exaggerated obsession with "beautiful women in video games/movies" and they "not being allowed in modern media". Not to mention that even conventionally attractive women are seen as "ugly" sometimes on this very forum. I seem to want to say I'm not "defending women's honor", I can live without women in this world so I don't feel the need to give them any special treatment.

What personality does male shephard has beyond being "SPACE G.I Joe"? I think that sexualization in video games is generally done in really juvenile and terrible ways, but the critique of it is definitely very one-sided.

Women ruin every hobby they touch. The lack of gatekeeping has caused this.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

It doesn't, but there's no reason to frame it in ethical terms.

Is it an ethical issue? I see it more as a "this is a weird double standard we have in our culture and the discussion around it is bizarre. Why is that?" kind of thing. The answer to that question might lead to ethical or political issues, though.

Men finding women attractive isn't an issue. It's only an issue when fat land whales with beards on their legs get upset that no men find them attractive ergo no woman should be attractive at all.

The entire argument is hilariously meta at this point because she's meant to be using her body as an advantage. She even tells you this.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

It doesn't, but there's no reason to frame it in ethical terms.

Is it an ethical issue? I see it more as a "this is a weird double standard we have in our culture. Why is that?" kind of thing. The answer to that question might lead to ethical or political issues, though.

And that might very well be an interesting issue to tackle in an academic environment, but not in regards to a preexisting cultural product. I also find it quite hypocritical on BioWare's part to blabber on about how they won't implement new and/or previously cut content within the trilogy, but they'll nevertheless discard some of the already existing one since it's culturally dated in light of contemporary sensibilities.

I personally don't care whether they had kept that angle or not, but its removal should not be justified by anything other than a chiseling of the cinematic experience within that scene.

 

[vonAchdorf]

It doesn't, but there's no reason to frame it in ethical terms.

Is it an ethical issue? I see it more as a "this is a weird double standard we have in our culture and the discussion around it is bizarre. Why is that?" kind of thing. The answer to that question might lead to ethical or political issues, though.

It's not a double standard but treating different things differently.

 

[Lacrymas]

It's not a double standard but treating different things differently.

Maybe, but people can't seem to agree what those "different things" are. If we had to analyze (ha) the two ass shots side by side, it would tell us two very different stories. Kaiden or male Shep's ass shot (I honestly don't remember who it was) was in a flirtatious context and that kind of interaction was the point, while Miranda's ass shot was a random one-off while she was talking about her abducted sister. Which leads me to believe the camera is telling me her body (or more likely the fact she is sexy) is more important than whatever crap is spewing out her mouth.

 

[Caim]

ALL of the loyalty missions were about dads leaving or fucking up in one way or another. Miranda, Jacob, Grunt, Thane, Jack, Samara, Tali, even Mordin with his previous protege. The only ones that don't are the ones that came with the DLC.

Holy shit you're right.

Miranda: Was made to be her father's puppet.
Jacob: His dad's story is Heart of Darkness starring Bill Cosby.
Garrus: Has issues with his dad, the high-ranking military man who disapproves of his son being a cowboy cop.
Mordin: The whole thing with his apprentice.
Jack: Her issues have Cerberus as a stand-in for a father figure.
Grunt: He wants to be a real Krogan boy and has issues with his creator, and more or less becomes a surrogate son to Wrex.
Tali: Has major issues stemming from her father's actions and subsequent death.
Thane: Messed up raising his son.
Samara: Seriously messed up raising her daughter.
Legion: Kinda has issues regarding the Quarians.
Zaeed: His kid shows up in Andromeda, and he messed up being a dad.

So the only one excempt is Kasumi, who's got issues because of her dead boyfriend.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Maybe, but people can't seem to agree what those "different things" are.

women use charm to control men

Which leads me to believe the camera is telling me her body is more important than whatever crap is spewing out her mouth.

she used her body to get both shepard and on a meta level you(the player) to help her

 

[Nano]

So the only one excempt is Kasumi, who's got issues because of her dead boyfriend.

Probably called him Daddy in bed though.

 

[Lambach]

The ass shot at that particular moment was the game's way of telling you what convinced Shepard to help her with her sister/dad thing.

 

[Lacrymas]

Which leads me to believe the camera is telling me her body is more important than whatever crap is spewing out her mouth.

she used her body to get both shepard and on a meta level you(the player) to help her

*She* didn't do that, it wasn't she who wrestled control of the camera and showed us her ass. Besides, Shepard might be gay and not interested in her body. Is that shot the same when we are playing fem Shep? This is definitely, absolutely, done for the benefit of a presumably straight male audience, and not some grand vision of her character.

 

[KVVRR]

Zaeed: His kid shows up in Andromeda, and he messed up being a dad.

hold up WHAT