Interview Matt Chat 182: Chris Taylor on the Fall of Gas Powered Games

[Irenaeus]

but the current KS model is pretty fucking awful.

What do you mean by "current model"? How could it be different and should it? What does it need to stop being fucking awful?

Enforcing penalities for failed kickstarter projects? Lol, imagine how subjective this would be.

 

[villain of the story]

Enforce penalty on projects that fail and thus make no profit. Makes sense.

How about this: enforce penalty on people who pledge to retarded shit. One person pledges to 2 or more projects that fail, there is obviously something wrong with him. If you are in touch with reality and have some common sense, you can usually tell if a KS campaign will fail right away. Eg. Guido Henkel's KS, the "oldschool RPG" KS.

I don't see any problem with the "current model" of KS. Some people choose to be very transparent about everything. Others, less so. Ultimately, it is up to people to decide whether to support a project or not, and to take responsibility for their decision. If you feel uncomfortable about the lack of transparency with any project, don't pledge. Quite fucking simple.

 

[Hellraiser]

Don't get me wrong, crowdfunding is a great thing and I'm excited that games we wouldn't have a chance to play otherwise are in development, but the current KS model is pretty fucking awful.

I have to agree, even when you run a charity you need to publish where exactly all the money you're getting is going. At this moment kickstarter is a giant scam magnet the best example of which is that thing Cleve was talking (the project of his former co-workers) or the "tropes and women in video games" nonsense.

It should be required to inform what you want the money for and how much. How much do you expect to pay for the staff you need, how much for the 3rd party software/tools, how much for the website, the distribution, the hardware, assorted other costs (accounting, legal nonsense, rent for the property, utilities) and advertising. That's the bare essentials really, you don't need to go full blown venture capital with this thing and do an enormous due diligence. But the random backer should be able to go on a kickstarter page, see "we want to hire X people for so and so Kwabucks" and be able to check himself if that's doable or not. It's only fair you do that if you want to take their money and give little (compared to traditional ways of financing) to the backer in return. Or possibly nothing.

That doesn't mean I don't see the benefits of this model, it is better than traditional ones in many ways. But the people trying to kickstart a project as well as the backers themselves and the people managing kickstarter need to learn how to use it and how to make it an effective and trustworthy platform. It can work because people have the will to back stuff, but if assholes or people who don't take the responsibility of delivering a product seriously ruin it we may lose out on something that can break the current status quo in the industry.

 

[Moribund]

As much as I can sympathize with GPG as a developer, I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the game they want to make. This world simply doesn't need another anti-roleplaying game (ARPG).

The saddest thing is they could probably just make graphically updated gold box games forever and have a decent market for it that never runs out.

Some publisher asshats say you can only make a game like diablo, starcraft or halo that's what all the kids like man.

Developers just believe some random retard knows what people want because he has a suit and tries to deliver and then FAILURES.

 

[villain of the story]

or the "tropes and women in video games" nonsense.

What was wrong with that? Against your world view?

It should be required to inform what you want the money for and how much. How much do you expect to pay for the staff you need, how much for the 3rd party software/tools, how much for the website, the distribution, the hardware, assorted other costs (accounting, legal nonsense, rent for the property, utilities) and advertising. That's the bare essentials really, you don't need to go full blown venture capital with this thing and do an enormous due diligence. But the random backer should be able to go on a kickstarter page, see "we want to hire X people for so and so Kwabucks" and be able to check himself if that's doable or not. It's only fair you do that if you want to take their money and give little (compared to traditional ways of financing) to the backer in return. Or possibly nothing.

This is plain fucking retarded. Counter-intuitive and against the point of KS as well. Unless you have already started making something and got something to show for it, you can make absolutely no estimates regarding what you need to do what and for how much. You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that. You can make some guesses and hope to do better if you gather more money than you aimed for.

All this desire to regulate and babysit people is sickening. The only thing Kickstarter needs is people to get a fucking clue and start making informed and responsible decisions and good fucking riddance for those who cannot think for themselves.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I would buy graphically updated Gold Box games forever.

 

[St. Toxic]

Good luck with the garage-edition, Chris. As he said, it's just a game, it's a rough industry out there and it's not the end of the world.

Also, I probably would've pushed money into this if they were talking about a civ/roguelike combination. I've had a few ideas towards that end of the spectrum myself.

 

[Irenaeus]

a civ/roguelike combination.

Can you recommend any game like this?

 

[Hellraiser]

What was wrong with that? Against your world view?

My understanding is that progress on that is nonexistent and the money went into a black hole as the person behind it has absolutely nothing to show. That's despite over half a year of supposed work.

This is plain fucking retarded. Counter-intuitive and against the point of KS as well. Unless you have already started making something and got something to show for it, you can make absolutely no estimates regarding what you need to do what and for how much. You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that. You can make some guesses and hope to do better if you gather more money than you aimed for.

No, all of that is perfectly logical and not against the point of KS. The point of kickstarter is to have a platform that allows individuals to launch and get funding for projects from other individuals. The point is to get money, Kickstarter as a platform benefits if people don't lose money from scams as there is more money to go into other projects and people don't give up on backing things. This in turn allows to draw in more people by proving legitimacy of the platform.

Estimating costs is not hard, if you want to use engine X or Y you will know how much it costs, you know how much the hardware costs and you should know how much you need to pay to employees or for the office you're renting. Costs change and thus can't be guessed with 100% accuracy? Of course they can't. But you know what? You can and fucking should do some research before you make a project, assume the average market prices plus some margin of error because things never go according to plan.

All this desire to regulate and babysit people is sickening. The only thing Kickstarter needs is people to get a fucking clue and start making informed and responsible decisions and good fucking riddance for those who cannot think for themselves.

Those people could instead not lose money and use it to fund something proper. This would benefit every party involved including you, because it would mean more projects would get funded and funded with more money at that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

but the current KS model is pretty fucking awful.

What do you mean by "current model"? How could it be different and should it? What does it need to stop being fucking awful?

Enforcing penalities for failed kickstarter projects? Lol, imagine how subjective this would be.

No, it's not about penalties or guarantees. It's not about the end product, but the process itself.

Right now the process is this:

- stay vague, sell the dream
- ask for the min, which may or may not be enough (see the Wildman fiasco and what BN hinted at), hope to triple it; basically, ask for the third of what you really need and hope for the best. Partly, because gamers are clueless and think that 1 mil is a lot, so asking for more will be seen as greedy, partly to generate the excitement of hitting the goal early and getting the built-in coverage which generates more excitement.
- offer loot bags, can't sell the game on details alone, gotta do the party favors shit - a novella! a leather bag! an itam! Obsidian went all out with their loot bag: an AMD processor and "a random assortment of Obsidian loot such as pens, coasters, t-shirts, game patches, doodles, etc." Jesus fucking Christ! How long until companies start hiring hookers? Throw us extra $50 bucks and you can spend 10 min with our temporary hired intern named Crystal.
- drive people into donating frenzy with "goals" - for extra 500k Majestic Chis Avellone himself will design a location and visit our office for a month or two. Getting MCA involved is a great idea, but did it have to be a goal? And if it did (his time is valuable and it's business), did it have to cost that much? Or 300k for a new race, class, and companion? Sure, we all understand that the goal is nothing but a reward for raising X amount of dollars, but I'd prefer to see a straight forward 'cost to implement' system.

So, what I would like to see is:

- a detailed pitch (see the PST pitch, for example); sure, the game turned out to be a bit different, but that's not the point. Details, even if things will get changed later, are better than "it's gonna be awesome, bro!"
- ask for what's needed not for the min and explain why you need that much. It's not about regulating, it's about transparency and educating people why things cost that much. It's sort of a necessary measure if developers start asking for realistic budgets.
- 'cost to implement' upgrade system

Unless you have already started making something and got something to show for it, you can make absolutely no estimates regarding what you need to do what and for how much. You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that. You can make some guesses and hope to do better if you gather more money than you aimed for.

If you're right, it only highlights the problem - developers are asking for random amounts of money, money they think they can get vs money they actually need. However, I'm pretty sure that proper studios like Obsidian have a pretty good idea of what it would cost them to make a game, plus-minus 10%.

You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that.

You don't need to account your grocery shopping down to a dime, but you can to a ballpark (say 80 bucks or 120 or 200, based on your budget and what you're planning to buy; you can end up spending 78 or 84, but that's an acceptable fluctuation). Pretty sure every family on a budget does that. You can just go to a store and buy a bunch of random shit and spend twice as much you should have, just because you couldn't account down to a dime.

All this desire to regulate and babysit people is sickening. The only thing Kickstarter needs is people to get a fucking clue and start making informed and responsible decisions and good fucking riddance for those who cannot think for themselves.

And world peace, bro. Don't forget the world peace.

 

[MicoSelva]

Good post, VD.

As for the GPG - I am surprised they managed to stay afloat that long. How many good games have they made in ten years? One?

 

[Moribund]

 

[DeepOcean]

He appears to be sincere on the video. He makes really good RTS games but every ARPG he made was shit, why he insist in making ARPGs, especially now that the market have alot of options. I know its expensive to make a RTS like Supreme Commander and Total Anihilation, but, man after playing Path of Exile, I'm really not interested on this cartoony art style that they are using and I'm not really interested in another ARPG. Kickstarter has already big profile adventure and cRPG games, but RTS games projects are really lacking, a high profile RTS project from Chris Taylor would be awesome. I really fear that he is misunderstanding the situation and will give up, thinking that people don't pledge because they don't like his games and there isn't a big enough fan base to RTS games. Anyone had tried to take the budget of Fallout 1, Arcanum, PS: Torment and update to todays inflation and wages?

 

[Marsal]

I don't remember you being that vocally opposed to "Kickstarter model" when Dead State was scamming people raising money, VD. I guess having an up-close view of the operation gives one perspective.

 

[Ogg]

What I most hate about the KS model can be summed up by this two instances:
- a project asks for 1 million when they actually need 3
- a guy launch a simple idea that will cost him 10k but hipsters pledge like mad and the guy ends up with 100k he has naught to spend on (except booze and whores of course)
That's not what KS should be used for. That's dishonest and deliberately opaque.

A good way to implement a pledging system would be to set an amount needed. Then when the amount's reached, close the door, the whole deal is made, now we start working. Now if you want to buy the gme/product, you'll simply have to buy it when it's done. The minimum asked should also be the maximum. Maybe put a +/-10% margin, but nothing more.

Of course I know it will never work that way. Gosh, how I wish the world was reasonable.

Back on topic, this Chris Taylor really seems like a nice guy. It's a wonder he's still in the market.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't remember you being that vocally opposed to "Kickstarter model" when Dead State was scamming people raising money, VD. I guess having an up-close view of the operation gives one perspective.

I didn't like the model from day one and never made a secret out of it. This is hardly my first post on the subject. As much as I admired Fargo's salesmanship, I didn't like the model he established. If I did, I would have done my own Kickstarter. Surely, this much is obvious, no?

In case you didn't notice, I said that my criticism was aimed at the model, not crowd-sourcing itself. I'm glad that WL2, PE, DS, and many other projects got funded. I see none of these fund-raisers as scams, so I'm not sure why you decided to bring it up (other than to troll). If I may criticize Brian for something, it's for not showing more and not enough salesmanship. He probably could have gotten a lot more, but that's his business.

 

[Junmarko]

Hope he pulls through. I have never enjoyed any ARPG besides Dungeon Siege II, so he did something right in my books. He is also one of the few developers I have seen who still listens to his fans. Yes, his games have usually been hybridized and of a mixed genre, but you need to respect the people who try to do things that have not been done - regardless of whether they fail. None of the games he has made have been clones of anything else, which many devs do in order to take the safe route. He is the Victor Frankenstein of game developers, sometimes he makes fucking monstrosities (Space Siege)...but he's always had my attention and respect for having the guts.

As far as Wildman goes, all I can say is at least he hasn't sold out and tried to make another MMO.

Hang in there Chris!

 

[Marsal]

I don't remember you being that vocally opposed to "Kickstarter model" when Dead State was scamming people raising money, VD. I guess having an up-close view of the operation gives one perspective.

I didn't like the model from day one and never made a secret out of it. This is hardly my first post on the subject. As much as I admired Fargo's salesmanship, I didn't like the model he established. If I did, I would have done my own Kickstarter. Surely, this much is obvious, no?

In case you didn't notice, I said that my criticism was aimed at the model, not crowd-sourcing itself. I'm glad that WL2, PE, DS, and many other projects got funded. I see none of these fund-raisers as scams, so I'm not sure why you decided to bring it up (other than to troll). If I may criticize Brian for something, it's for not showing more and not enough salesmanship. He probably could have gotten a lot more, but that's his business.

My point is: why didn't you do anything about it when you had the chance? Why not influence DS people to make a Kickstarter campaign the "proper way"? If any game should have had a detailed design document and cost structure, it's the one being made for 3 years prior to going on Kickstarter, on an existing engine, by a small team of experienced developers. Quote one fucking post in which you said they were doing it wrong, while they were doing it.

 

[villain of the story]

Right now the process is this:

- stay vague, sell the dream

Can you show where this rule is written on Kickstarter? Because I am pretty sure that is not "the process", just one that some people have subscribed to and I'm not even sure that they are many. But there are also a lot of people who aren't vague at all with their KS projects. In fact, most of the KS projects I've seen were pretty humble and transparent with "their" process. Case in point, I supported an open source bluetooth/USB gamepad and the guy have been sharing details down to component costs, blueprints and their production process. Will he deliver in the end? I hope so and he gives me confidence. There are a number of other stuff that I have pledged and they are all similar. FTL was another one. They started humble and didn't suddenly jack up their goals to "selling the dream" just because they got 10 times the money they needed.

Perhaps you need to "branch out" with your own KS experience.

- ask for the min, which may or may not be enough (see the Wildman fiasco and what BN hinted at), hope to triple it; basically, ask for the third of what you really need and hope for the best. Partly, because gamers are clueless and think that 1 mil is a lot, so asking for more will be seen as greedy, partly to generate the excitement of hitting the goal early and getting the built-in coverage which generates more excitement.

- offer loot bags, can't sell the game on details alone, gotta do the party favors shit - a novella! a leather bag! an itam! Obsidian went all out with their loot bag: an AMD processor and "a random assortment of Obsidian loot such as pens, coasters, t-shirts, game patches, doodles, etc." Jesus fucking Christ! How long until companies start hiring hookers? Throw us extra $50 bucks and you can spend 10 min with our temporary hired intern named Crystal.

AMD processors were literally given away for free by AMD. Obsidian didn't do "going all out" but a perfect opportunity landed on their lap. Pens, coasters, t-shirts etc. useless shit = stuff that costs ridiculously low, especially if you have the connections or dealing in large volumes. So as long as you can turn useless gimmicks into more donations, which Obsidian successfully did, and have the means to deliver, which we hope Obsidian does/will have when they get around to it, what is wrong with any of this?

- drive people into donating frenzy with "goals" - for extra 500k Majestic Chis Avellone himself will design a location and visit our office for a month or two. Getting MCA involved is a great idea, but did it have to be a goal? And if it did (his time is valuable and it's business), did it have to cost that much? Or 300k for a new race, class, and companion? Sure, we all understand that the goal is nothing but a reward for raising X amount of dollars, but I'd prefer to see a straight forward 'cost to implement' system.

So, what I would like to see is:

- a detailed pitch (see the PST pitch, for example); sure, the game turned out to be a bit different, but that's not the point. Details, even if things will get changed later, are better than "it's gonna be awesome, bro!"
- ask for what's needed not for the min and explain why you need that much. It's not about regulating, it's about transparency and educating people why things cost that much. It's sort of a necessary measure if developers start asking for realistic budgets.
- 'cost to implement' upgrade system

Then perhaps you need to invest in the kind of KS projects that share the same principles as you have and adhere to it. There are people out there already doing it the way you think should be done. So I guess you will have to learn how to live with the fact that there will also be people who aren't/won't.

Unless you have already started making something and got something to show for it, you can make absolutely no estimates regarding what you need to do what and for how much. You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that. You can make some guesses and hope to do better if you gather more money than you aimed for.

If you're right, it only highlights the problem - developers are asking for random amounts of money, money they think they can get vs money they actually need. However, I'm pretty sure that proper studios like Obsidian have a pretty good idea of what it would cost them to make a game, plus-minus 10%.

You can't even account for your grocery shopping down to a dime for the next week FFS. Shit doesn't work like that.

You don't need to account your grocery shopping down to a dime, but you can to a ballpark (say 80 bucks or 120 or 200, based on your budget and what you're planning to buy; you can end up spending 78 or 84, but that's an acceptable fluctuation). Pretty sure every family on a budget does that. You can just go to a store and buy a bunch of random shit and spend twice as much you should have, just because you couldn't account down to a dime.

Plus-minus 10% can make a big difference once you've gone grocery shopping.

I was exaggerating for dramatic effect but the principle remains the same.

So basically, your "problem" with KS is that you pick up the wrong KS projects to measure it. Like women getting involved with bad guys and then bitching about it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

My point is: why didn't you do anything about it when you had the chance? Why not influence DS people to make a Kickstarter campaign the "proper way"?

I didn't have a chance because it wasn't my KS. I don't have a habit of interfering with other people business. Besides, who am I to tell him that I know better?

If any game should have had a detailed design document and cost structure, it's the one being made for 3 years prior to going on Kickstarter, on an existing engine, by a small team of experienced developers.

He did. As I'm sure inXile and Obsidian did. They just weren't shown and it's not my place to tell either of them that they are doing it wrong.

Quote one fucking post in which you said they were doing it wrong, while they were doing it.

Why should I? Did I complain about inXile or Obsidian or anyone else not showing design docs or cost structure while they were doing it?

 

[Marsal]

My point is: why didn't you do anything about it when you had the chance? Why not influence DS people to make a Kickstarter campaign the "proper way"?

I didn't have a chance because it wasn't my KS. I don't have a habit of interfering with other people business. Besides, who am I to tell him that I know better?

If any game should have had a detailed design document and cost structure, it's the one being made for 3 years prior to going on Kickstarter, on an existing engine, by a small team of experienced developers.

He did. As I'm sure inXile and Obsidian did. They just weren't shown and it's not my place to tell either of them that they are doing it wrong.

Quote one fucking post in which you said they were doing it wrong, while they were doing it.

Why should I? Did I complain about inXile or Obsidian or anyone else not showing design docs or cost structure while they were doing it?

Are you being intentionally dense? Is Obsidian using your engine and developers for their game? Does inXile host their forum on ITS domain?

It wasn't your place to tell them they are doing it wrong and yet it's somehow your place to bitch about integrity of Kickstarter NOW, when you did nothing to change and improve the shady practices in your backyard, while you had the chance? Bitch, please. Could you be any more hypocritical?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Right now the process is this:

- stay vague, sell the dream

Can you show where this rule is written on Kickstarter? Because I am pretty sure that is not "the process", just one that some people have subscribed to and I'm not even sure that they are many. But there are also a lot of people who aren't vague at all with their KS projects. In fact, most of the KS projects I've seen were pretty humble and transparent with "their" process. Case in point, I supported an open source bluetooth/USB gamepad and the guy have been sharing details down to component costs, blueprints and their production process. Will he deliver in the end? I hope so and he gives me confidence. There are a number of other stuff that I have pledged and they are all similar. FTL was another one. They started humble and didn't suddenly jack up their goals to "selling the dream" just because they got 10 times the money they needed.

I'm talking about games, not hardware. FTL is an exception. Rules don't have to be written down to exist. After inXile and Obsidian got the top $ by selling dreams and staying vague, it's pretty much the unspoken rule. What do you need to do to do well on KS. Number 1...

AMD processors were literally given away for free by AMD. Obsidian didn't do "going all out" but a perfect opportunity landed on their lap. Pens, coasters, t-shirts etc. useless shit = stuff that costs ridiculously low, especially if you have the connections or dealing in large volumes. So as long as you can turn useless gimmicks into more donations, which Obsidian successfully did, and have the means to deliver, which we hope Obsidian does/will have when they get around to it, what is wrong with any of this?

This isn't about the cost of the loot bags, this is about the fact that you need to offer loot bags to catch people attention. Making a game they might want to play is no longer enough.

Then perhaps you need to invest in the kind of KS projects that share the same principles as you have and adhere to it. There are people out there already doing it the way you think should be done. So I guess you will have to learn how to live with the fact that there will also be people who aren't/won't.

What do other projects have to do with anything? We're talking about RPGs here, not USB gamepads and open source bluetooth crap. We're talking about games here, RPGs in particular.

Plus-minus 10% can make a big difference once you've gone grocery shopping. I was exaggerating for dramatic effect but the principle remains the same.

Ok, so let's say it takes 3 mil to make a decent RPG. Show the expenses then add a certain %, say 5, for argument's sake, for unforeseen expenses which will be accounted for later on. If nothing comes up, these money will go toward making collection edition boxes better: thicker manuals, art books, etc.

So basically, your "problem" with KS is that you pick up the wrong KS projects to measure it. Like women getting involved with bad guys and then bitching about it.

Right. Exactly like that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Are you being intentionally dense? Is Obsidian using your engine and developers for their game? Does inXile host their forum on ITS domain?

You feel that it gives me the right to tell Brian what to do and offer him unsolicited advice every week? I don't.

It wasn't your place to tell them they are doing it wrong and yet it's somehow your place to bitch about integrity of Kickstarter NOW, when you did nothing to change and improve the shady practices in your backyard, while you had the chance? Bitch, please. Could you be any more hypocritical?

Jesus...

First, look up the definition of hypocrisy. Second, DS isn't my backyard. Third, there were no shady practices there, nor were they in other KS campaigns I think you mistook the nature of my criticism and jumped the gun, being too eager to attack me (which is something you do often). Fourth, there is a huge difference between making 'what I don't like about KS' posts on forums and telling someone who's running a campaign 'look, because I don't like some things about KS, we're gonna do yours differently!" It's the dumbest fucking thing, I hope you understand that.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I think inXile and Obsidian would have put some of their own money into Wasteland 2 and Project Eternity respectively. They might have some mega-rich private donors too. I know the makers of the new Tex Murphy game got the majority of their funding from elsewhere, as did the new Broken Sword guys. They've said it openly.

I think that is how Kickstarter should work for the big companies. Ask for a few million from your players, get the rest yourselves. Smaller ventures like FTL, who have very limited goals for what they want the game to be, can get all their funding from KS. But trying to get all your funding when you're making a big game, that's doomed to failure. It'll be interesting to see what happens with Star Citizen - I think the CryEngine 3 license alone would eat away a large chunk of their funds.

 

[Marsal]

Are you being intentionally dense? Is Obsidian using your engine and developers for their game? Does inXile host their forum on ITS domain?

You feel that it gives me the right to tell Brian what to do and offer him unsolicited advice every week? I don't.

I feel you bitch too much about things you know nothing about. That's why you're on the Codex, right? Not so easy being a whiny fag when there is money on the table, is it?

It wasn't your place to tell them they are doing it wrong and yet it's somehow your place to bitch about integrity of Kickstarter NOW, when you did nothing to change and improve the shady practices in your backyard, while you had the chance? Bitch, please. Could you be any more hypocritical?

Jesus...

First, look up the definition of hypocrisy. Second, DS isn't my backyard. Third, there were no shady practices there, nor were they in other KS campaigns I think you mistook the nature of my criticism and jumped the gun, being too eager to attack me (which is something you do often). Fourth, there is a huge difference between making 'what I don't like about KS' posts on forums and telling someone who's running a campaign 'look, because I don't like some things about KS, we're gonna do yours differently!" It's the dumbest fucking thing, I hope you understand that.

Wow.

Everyone is out to get you, bro? I can't tell if you're delusional or plain stupid. Deciding to quit your job makes more sense in this context. Keep it up! I can see you replacing Cleave when he leaves after finishing Grimoire. We need interesting characters on the Codex