Interview Matt Chat Special: Neal Hallford on Thief of Dreams

[Cosmic Misogynerd]

That ain't the truth, that's your perception of the things. I agree about the borked Kickstarter, but Neal is a fine fellow and I wish him success.

 

[LeStryfe79]

That ain't the truth, that's your perception of the things. I agree about the borked Kickstarter, but Neal is a fine fellow and I wish him success.

 

[LeStryfe79]

I love you, Crooked Bee...

~Achievement unlocked: Codex romance~

 

[Davaris]

What he really needs is team up with some big name who's also good at project management.* It's p. clear he isn't cut out for doing Kickstarter campaigns on his own.

* (Like Warren Spector )

He's done pretty well for a second attempt. He has half of it, a sizable Facebook group, but unfortunately for him they are either tightwads, they are interested in games not books, or he is not allowed to mass message them about the campaign. Raising money on Kickstarter is a skill that can be learned like anything else and he is almost there IMO.

 

[MRY]

It seems to me that at least one flaw in the Kickstarter, which I've backed, is that the reward tiers seem all off. You don't get an eBook (which has zero marginal cost for him) until $20, and you don't get a paperback until $40. While I fully understand that backing a KS project isn't preordering, nevertheless what you typically see is that the end product is at a reward tier corresponding to a lower-than-release price (not accounting for major sales). Thus, for example, you could get Torment: TON for $20, and I assume the release-day price will be at least $25, if not $40.

Maybe I'm just the world's biggest cheapskate, but when I buy books, I buy them used; even with shipping, I seldom pay more than $4 for a book. The idea of paying $40 for a paperback strikes me as insane. It seems like he would've been better off having the books at a fairly low price, then having more engaging higher-level rewards.

 

[Excommunicator]

Creator Neal Hallford 4 days ago

Ladies and gentlemen, give it up for another completely useless comment from Ten Tron! He must spend HOURS working on these insults. Really, I'm honored that this project -- that he spent a whole dollar on -- means so much to him that he'll literally go out of his way to waste time on. Ten, take your own advice, stop wasting YOUR money, your time, and your effort trolling other people's projects, and actually DO something productive with your own life. Whenever you've actually made a game, or a book, or a movie (and I've done all three), then you can come and criticize my methods. Until then, you have nothing at all to say.

My only bit of advice is don't write petty shit like this. It doesn't matter how valid your points might be, how much you feel you need to respond or how annoyed the comments made you feel, responding with things like this cheapen your own image, they fuel the problem and they contribute nothing at all. Think twice next time. Especially never, ever use the "you can't criticise me until you've made a game yourself". It's simply low.

Anyway better luck with the next pitch. Maybe you should start by writing a short story, a few starting chapters or even a novella before you make the full novel pitch so people have something to attach themselves to.

Oh and one last reiteration: listen to the people complaining about the price. It's simply too high.

 

[Infinitron]

I think Neal wanted to make this a "premium" Kickstarter for hardcore fans willing to spend a lot of money. It worked for the MMOs, after all. Unfortunately the audience wasn't there.

 

[Davaris]

It seems to me that at least one flaw in the Kickstarter, which I've backed, is that the reward tiers seem all off. You don't get an eBook (which has zero marginal cost for him) until $20, and you don't get a paperback until $40. While I fully understand that backing a KS project isn't preordering, nevertheless what you typically see is that the end product is at a reward tier corresponding to a lower-than-release price (not accounting for major sales). Thus, for example, you could get Torment: TON for $20, and I assume the release-day price will be at least $25, if not $40.

Maybe I'm just the world's biggest cheapskate, but when I buy books, I buy them used; even with shipping, I seldom pay more than $4 for a book. The idea of paying $40 for a paperback strikes me as insane. It seems like he would've been better off having the books at a fairly low price, then having more engaging higher-level rewards.

When I said cheapskates, I was looking at the fact he has 2000 Facebook members and most likely, less than 1% of them have helped him at all.

As for print runs, they cost a lot if you do them in small numbers and you get discounts, only if you order them in big batches say of 2500, 5,000, 10,000 and greater. I have no clue what books cost to print, but I know there is no way someone with only 200 backers, could do a print run of a novel for $4. But yeah, looking at that international price he is charging $40 + $24 for mail and that is just plain unaffordable for most people. So you certainly wouldn't back him to get a cheap book. You would only back him to help him achieve his dream.

As for hard copies on Kickstarter, I think they should offer them as standard to everyone that backs for a pdf, but pass all of the costs onto the customer, if they want a hard copy version later. There are print on demand services that do everything, including mailing it out for you. What could be easier than that?

 

[MRY]

@ Davaris: It's a fair point about the cost of the print books, though they don't cost $40 even in small batches.

Asking people to fund your dream on Kickstarter works when you're (supposedly) a little girl or an autistic kid dreaming of making an RPG, or a group of teenagers trying to build a robot, or whatever. But (and I say this as a backer!) as Neal points out, he's already published a novel, made a game, made a movie. He accomplished his dreams a long time ago. And even setting that aside, "I want to write a novel" is the kind of dream that you don't need KS money to achieve. While I certainly haven't had success as a writer comparable to Neal's, I have published a couple dozen short stories, worked on seven shipped games, and currently write on a children's TV show; I've also written but failed to sell a few novels and dozens more stories, and designed but failed to pull off probably a dozen or so games. But that's always been moonlighting while working a full-time, demanding day job (and, for the past few years, while raising kids). I appreciate that it would be easier with funding that made working a day job unnecessary; but saying, "I want you to make my dream easier" is a quite a bit different from "I want you to make my dream possible."

Typically what Kickstarters are selling is not just the creator's (creators') dream, but the backers' too. In other words, I didn't back Torment: TON (or any of the seventy other projects I've backed!) as mere charity or as a personal Make-a-Wish foundation. I did it because I really want to play Torment: TON, and I'm skeptical it would get made without KS backing. Indeed, I'm skeptical that any game similar to Torment: TON would get made without Torment (and Eternity and Wasteland) getting backed on KS.* So I'm paying to have my dreams come true!

(* Age of Decadence will be great, but it's not a writer-driven project in the same way, doesn't have a party, etc., etc.)

The problem Neal is running up against is that although there's been a decline in quality RPGs (though perhaps not as bad as the Codex insists), fantasy as a genre has never really flagged and is arguably enjoying a renaissance, at least if you like grimdark fantasy. Since I've kind of burned out on fantasy (having spent my childhood reading nothing but fantasy), I'm not a great judge, but I'd say it's at least arguable that Abercrombie, Rothfuss, et al. are better than Feist, Eddings, et al. So even if I craved a fantasy novel, I wouldn't need to fund Neal to get it.

Ultimately, then, I think the best way he could hook people would be to get them more engaged in his dream -- offering a sample would help, but so would having fairly low reward tiers where you read early drafts, maybe get to watch him do his writing in videos or something (which is probably boring, but might be interesting), brainstorm with him, etc. Of course, writers are very jealous of their creative process, but it still seems like it might be the only thing to sell that people would buy!

 

[FrancoTAU]

I like Neal's stuff and I like fantasy novels in general, but have had no interest in this project. I guess it's a mixture of an anti novel kickstarter bias (you need money to write a book on your own time?) and that there isn't even a sample chapter or two. Even if the sample chapters are subject to be completely re written or discarded.

 

[Davaris]

MRY

Asking people to fund your dream on Kickstarter works when you're (supposedly) a little girl or an autistic kid dreaming of making an RPG, or a group of teenagers trying to build a robot, or whatever. he's already published a novel, made a game, made a movie. He accomplished his dreams a long time ago. And even setting that aside, "I want to write a novel" is the kind of dream that you don't need KS money to achieve.

Asking complete strangers when you have no track record, would certainly be begging, but existing fans that already know your work and like it enough to follow you for a decade and longer? I don't see it that way. Artists have been funded by benefactors for hundreds of years and it is still occurring even today. I know one through a relative, that has lived entirely from the funding given by a rich benefactor, for the last 15 years. He gets so much from this man, he is able to support his wife and two children very comfortably. That is clearly not charity.

While I certainly haven't had success as a writer comparable to Neal's, I have published a couple dozen short stories, worked on seven shipped games, and currently write on a children's TV show; I've also written but failed to sell a few novels and dozens more stories, and designed but failed to pull off probably a dozen or so games. But that's always been moonlighting while working a full-time, demanding day job (and, for the past few years, while raising kids). I appreciate that it would be easier with funding that made working a day job unnecessary; but saying, "I want you to make my dream easier" is a quite a bit different from "I want you to make my dream possible."

Neal is a professional that is hired to work in one of the most competitive industries in the world. If you are good at something, you do not work for free. If you look at his website, he offers to work on contract. If someone came to him and said work on this project free and you might get paid at the end, as a professional he would refuse.

And I'm surprised you were allowed to work on other things in your spare time. AAA game industry jobs are so demanding and competitive, they expect 100% effort all the time. Sure if you were writing as a way to unwind that is fine, but I doubt you could put 100% passion into two projects at a time. Surely one of them would suffer.

Edit:
He just reported a $5000 donation. Wow.

 

[Infinitron]

He just reported a $5000 donation. Wow.

Hmm, I hope this isn't the "airstrike" he was talking about in the interview. He said somebody would bring him over the top if he got close enough to his funding goal.

 

[Davaris]

It would be a very expensive way to hold a successful Kickstarter, if it is who I think you are suggesting, but I guess we'll never know.

 

[Infinitron]

It would be a very expensive way to hold a successful Kickstarter, if it is who I think you are suggesting, but I guess we'll never know.

I'm not suggesting that. I'm just asking if this is the airstrike donor or is it a separate guy?

 

[Davaris]

I'm not suggesting that. I'm just asking if this is the airstrike donor or is it a separate guy?

Oh I see.

 

[MRY]

@ Davaris: It seems like I've offended you, and I'm sorry if so. I didn't think my post was particularly critical of Neal (whose project I've backed) or of his fanbase.

Asking complete strangers when you have no track record, would certainly be begging, but existing fans that already know your work and like it enough to follow you for a decade and longer?

Well, the Kickstarter is aimed at complete strangers, and as a novelist, does he have any track record at all? He co-wrote an adapted novel based on a video game based on an existing series about 15 years ago. Since then, he's written two books, but neither is a novel and the second one appears to be self-published.

Artists have been funded by benefactors for hundreds of years and it is still occurring even today. I know one through a relative, that has lived entirely from the funding given by a rich benefactor, for the last 15 years. He gets so much from this man, he is able to support his wife and two children very comfortably. That is clearly not charity.

I certainly don't think artistic patronage is charity, although, as a historical matter, artistic patronage worked very different from Kickstarter -- the artist would do commissioned works for the patron, the patron would keep many of the works, etc. To the extent you're giving money to an artist and getting nothing back, that is charity -- the same way it's charity if you give money to a non-profit museum or university. That doesn't make Neal a beggar, of course! There's nothing wrong with asking for charity, I just don't think it's especially effective on Kickstarter unless you can present an emotionally appealing story of need.

Neal is a professional that is hired to work in one of the most competitive industries in the world. If you are good at something, you do not work for free. If you look at his website, he offers to work on contract. If someone came to him and said work on this project free and you might get paid at the end, as a professional he would refuse.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It's not that hard to be a writer in the game industry; Neal's credibility comes not from being any old game writer, it comes from a specific masterpiece he worked on in the 90s. None of the games he's worked on since then have well-regarded stories (as far as I know), and being a writer on Golden Axe isn't that hard to do. Moreover, I have no idea what Neal would or wouldn't do. I mean, people in competitive industries do things for free all the time: actors act in no-budget indie films, lawyers take pro bono cases, academics do public debates, etc. Sometimes there's a small honorarium involved in these things, but no one is doing it for the money.

In any case, I'm not suggesting that he should go around volunteering on unpaid projects on behalf of other people. I'm just suggesting that he could, like the overwhelming majority of authors throughout history (even successful ones, like Herman Melville or John Scalzi!), write his novel while holding down a day-job. Full-time writers are a very rare breed.

And I'm surprised you were allowed to work on other things in your spare time. AAA game industry jobs are so demanding and competitive, they expect 100% effort all the time.

Well, as an initial matter, my day job isn't making games (that's my hobby!). But I've never heard of game companies not letting writers write novels in their spare time. It's pretty common at Bioware (Drew Karpyshyn and Dave Gaider, at a minimum, right?), and some of my friends have done both. I'm confident that a game writer of Neal's stature can negotiate contracts in which he's allowed to write novels in his free time!

I doubt you could put 100% passion into two projects at a time. Surely one of them would suffer.

Well, by definition, you can't put 100% of your passion into two things at once. That said, assuming a person has a finite supply of passion, I'd hate to think of anyone using all of it (or even most of it!) on a game project. (What about family, food, and fun?) In my experience, though, it's not that hard to juggle multiple projects where you're just doing the writing. It becomes much harder when you've got a quality assurance role or some non-writing role. Otherwise, it's frankly a bit refreshing to have multiple projects at once because -- at least for me -- there's usually fruitful cross-fertilization, and sometimes I've got ideas that don't fit neatly into one box, so it's good to have another one to receive them.

In this case, though, we needn't be hypothetical! Neal actually did juggle multiple projects at once. For example, I assume he was working on Swords and Circuitry (non-fiction work, 2001) simultaneously with Dungeon Siege (2002), and The Derailment of the Sunset Express (memoir 2012) with Veer (2012 game). If you check his bio here, you can see lots of overlap: http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,4269/

Anyway, looks like this discussion is moot. He had a big influx in donations yesterday. If he has another day like that, he will reach his goal.

I'd be delighted if he did! But I'm not sure that renders the discussion moot.

 

[Crooked Bee]

You know, although I admit you have a point, I still think you overestimate one's ability to juggle multiple projects at once, MRY. Not everyone has the same amount of energy that you apparently do. Some writers do need to focus 100% on the writing at hand, and I assume tpday's Neal is one of those writers. He may have juggled two writing projects at once in the past, but past doesn't always simply translate into the present.

Sorry if I'm not making too much sense

 

[Davaris]

MRY
I am not offended and am not a big Neal fan. We are just having a discussion.

The benefactor in the case I mentioned, wasn't doing it to exploit the artist, though I am sure he gets some of the work. He does it, because he has excess money he has nothing else to do with, he enjoys the artist's work and wants him to make as much as possible.

And from his website, Neal offers scripting services as well (programming). Could be that is what he was also doing on these less demanding projects. I wouldn't know, as I am not a Neal expert.

As for actors, they do these projects between big movies, not while a big movie is being shot. Lawyers you mention do pro-bono cases, during working hours and it is approved by their employers. As for academics, I wouldn't know. All three could be doing these projects for fun, or they are doing them to improve their careers. There could be any number of motivations. However none of these examples you cite count as spare time, if they are done during working hours.

Well, by definition, you can't put 100% of your passion into two things at once. That said, assuming a person has a finite supply of passion, I'd hate to think of anyone using all of it (or even most of it!) on a game project. (What about family, food, and fun?) In my experience, though, it's not that hard to juggle multiple projects where you're just doing the writing. It becomes much harder when you've got a quality assurance role or some non-writing role. Otherwise, it's frankly a bit refreshing to have multiple projects at once because -- at least for me -- there's usually fruitful cross-fertilization, and sometimes I've got ideas that don't fit neatly into one box, so it's good to have another one to receive them.
.

This might be why you say, you have not had as much success as Neal. People that get to the top and remain there, don't do it working 9-5. It's not the way it works in RL. In competitive industries, there's always someone younger/harder working and talented that wants your place. I have a relative that was a high achiever, until he retired - his job was his whole life. Even in his retirement this guy still works most of the day, obsessing over the stock market. I have another relative that has aspirations to be an academic. Again, obsession and not much of a life outside of it. It is not something I could do, I require variety, but that is what these people are like.

 

[MRY]

@ CB: Fair enough!

@ Davaris: You may be right that juggling projects impedes success, but I still have three years till I'm as old as Neal was when he did BaK, so it could be an age thing. And I've had what people consider good accolades in my day job.

Regarding free work, I think your answer is a little question-begging, since "free time" becomes work time when you work in time that could otherwise be used for relaxing. Also, I thought your point was that elite professionals didn't do unpaid or nominally paid work as a matter of pride: that's what I was responding to. Must've misunderstood.

 

[Davaris]

MRY
>I thought your point was that elite professionals didn't do unpaid or nominally paid work as a matter of pride: that's what I was responding to. Must've misunderstood.

One reason they would not work for free, is to ensure their work is not devalued. Also if they are good, they have plenty of people lined up and willing to pay them to work on interesting projects. In my experience I have seen plenty of programmers and some writers that are willing to work unpaid on games, but game artists that will do it for free are very rare. I assume because there is plenty of well paid work, they can get as freelancers.

As for what you said about it being relatively easy to get a writing job in the game industry, how many of those writing jobs would be to work on a quality AAA RPG? Not many in the last 10 years I imagine. Even now with the Kickstarter resurgence, there would be very few properly paid jobs of this kind in the world and there are lots of people that want them.

 

[MRY]

One reason they would not work for free, is to ensure their work is not devalued. Also if they are good, they have plenty of people lined up and willing to pay them to work on interesting projects. In my experience I have seen plenty of programmers and some writers that are willing to work unpaid on games, but game artists that will do it for free are very rare.

Who are you talking about at this point? As I've pointed out, lots of professionals work for free. I even know successful game writers who work for free! But I'm at a loss at this point as to what this has to do with whether a person can write a novel in his free time. As for game artists, it depends -- I've seen plenty who do, but you're right that it's fewer than designers. My experience is that volunteer designer/writers are more common than volunteer coders.

As for what you said about it being relatively easy to get a writing job in the game industry, how many of those writing jobs would be to work on a quality AAA RPG? Not many in the last 10 years I imagine.

When did I say it was relatively easy? I just said that it wasn't "one of the most competitive industries in the world." In any event, has Neal worked on a AAA RPG in the last 10 years? I guess Dungeon Siege II was 8 years ago, so maybe that counts.

I guess I just find your dystopian image of being a game writer (impossible to get a job, no one would ever work for free, if you're not 100% dedicated some young gun will steal your job) completely at odds with what I've personally observed, and also completely at odds with what I've observed in other competitive industries. Maybe professional sports and hedge fund management, but beyond that, I don't think most of the world works that way.

 

[MRY]

This has gotten so off topic, and is making me sound critical of Neal. So to be clear: he's a great writer with great success and I wish him more success with this novel. Writing isn't easy, and people need money to live. Supporting a creator is good. I'll bow out with that!

 

[Davaris]

I guess I just find your dystopian image of being a game writer (impossible to get a job, no one would ever work for free, if you're not 100% dedicated some young gun will steal your job) completely at odds with what I've personally observed, and also completely at odds with what I've observed in other competitive industries. Maybe professional sports and hedge fund management, but beyond that, I don't think most of the world works that way.

Straw men.

And your description goes against everything developers complain about. Poor work/life balance in the game industry.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Damn, Halford might actually have a slim chance.

 

[MRY]

I guess I just find your dystopian image of being a game writer (impossible to get a job, no one would ever work for free, if you're not 100% dedicated some young gun will steal your job) completely at odds with what I've personally observed, and also completely at odds with what I've observed in other competitive industries. Maybe professional sports and hedge fund management, but beyond that, I don't think most of the world works that way.

Straw men.

Err, I said:
"Impossible to get a job"

You said:
"[O]ne of the most competitive industries in the world."

I said:
"No one would ever work for free."

You said:
"If you are good at something, you do not work for free."

I said:
"f you're not 100% dedicated some young gun will steal your job."

You said:
"AAA game industry jobs are so demanding and competitive, they expect 100% effort all the time. In competitive industries, there's always someone younger/harder working and talented that wants your place."

I was just trying to respond to your points, not set up straw men. :/

Poor work/life balance in the game industry.

Poor work/life balance is driven mostly by hours, not by the amount of dedication they expect; it's a fine distinction, but a real one. Regardless, it's not an issue that affects writers the same way it does other game jobs, in large part because in AAA games, the writing gets locked in place fairly early on because of voice acting. It's still not an easy job, but it's not "100% effort all the time" and prohibitions on outside creativity. If anything there probably should be considerably more competition among game writers; you see it to some extent at the high-end jobs (not RPGs, the cinematic action-adventure games), but in most instances, companies are happy to just keep using the same people they hired years and years ago. So, for example, the lead story person on Starcraft is Chris Metzen, whose background was in concept art, but moonlighted as a writer in early Blizzard days, and has stayed in that role ever since. Inertia matters a lot, which is one reason why it's hard to break into the industry.

(Last post for real this time!)