Max Payne 1 & 2 Discussion

[ZagorTeNej]

Anyway, I really disliked the lack of level diversity in MP2. Almost everywhere was a warehouse with crates. Yeah, MP1 had some janky stuff, but the rooftop chase, the Deep Six bunker, Punchinello's mansion and Aesir Corp were cooler places to have a fight than anything in the sequel.

That and it's also much shorter and has enemy waves sequences which I loathed. I'm supposed to navigate the level and shoot the bad guys, not defend Captain BaseballBatBoy costumed nerd mobster (who should have died in the first MP anyway) or incapacitated Max.

Also, the plot was poorly executed IMO. (Detective Winterson? Who gives a shit?)

Making a very minor character from the first game like Vlad also be a member of the secret cabal/inner circle (and even Alfred Wooden's golden boy/successor to the throne) also felt jarring. Then again, continuing the plot from the first Max Payne which had a clear and satisfactory conclusion was always gonna be a challenge.

 

[HumanTotemPole]

Looking back with the beneift of hindsight, MP1 remains the timeless masterpiece with tight storytelling and iconic scenes, and MP2 as the interesting but deeply flawed Hollywood remake.

Nail on the proverbial head. I say this having played 2 first then 1 some years later. 1 is also more difficult but utimately far more satisfying than 2 as a result. All about that roll as Inifintron says.

What happened to Remedy post Alan Wake? Are they still in business?

 

[Infinitron]

What happened to Remedy post Alan Wake? Are they still in business?

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/quantum-break-remedys-new-game.93547/

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

It was a one trick pony?

You could say the same for just about many other 'hit' games, including Fallout - aside from PS:Torment it isn't as if Black Isle's other games (not Bioware's) have been good.

MP 2 had enemies that weren't bullet sponges and introduced some stuff with Havoc engine. That made shooting more fun and seeing those masked guys flying through the rooms was a "badass" moment for me. The sleep sequences weren't bad; Roguey is trying to trollbait people as always. The third part had a nice beginning with a Jersey Shore scum killing but the constant cutscenes and with them, dumping the comics presentation was a bad move for movie. Shooting felt right, but the ending was showing that you have to do some popamoling to survive the fight. I've replayed first two games many times, but I don't feel an urge to do the same with huehue Payne.

 

[Carrion]

Anyway, I really disliked the lack of level diversity in MP2. Almost everywhere was a warehouse with crates. Yeah, MP1 had some janky stuff, but the rooftop chase, the Deep Six bunker, Punchinello's mansion and Aesir Corp were cooler places to have a fight than anything in the sequel.

I agree that MP1 had more memorable locations in general, especially early in the game, but I think MP2's levels actually had more diversity in terms of gameplay, as they got a bit more creative with the encounter design. Better AI of course helped in that as well. It's true that many levels take place in warehouses or buildings that are under construction or renovation, but hey, how the fuck would you show off with the physics engine without a ton of boxes and explosive barrels lying around?

Also, the Deep Six bunker was the worst part of the two Max Payne games and it didn't fit the tone of the game at all. Ditto for the Aesir building, but at least that was fun to play. The coolest locations were the slums, the rooftops, the sleazy hotel and the most depressing places in general, and there was a notable dip in quality when they abandoned the streets of New York in favor of more generic or even futuristic locations. MP2 managed to maintain its tone much better, even if it sometimes turned into a flat out comedy with the in-game TV shows taking over the main plot.

 

[Infinitron]

I think it fit the tone well enough. The game wasn't just a noire crime film, it wa also a messed up drug-fueled Ragnarok mindfuck journey to hell (didn't Jack Lupino howling like a wolf and namedropping Cthulhu clue you in to that?) and Deep Six was like the climax of that. Personally, I thought the hotel was actually a bit boring (did we really have to go there twice?)

And besides, it's worth it for the line "Do you have any idea why this is called Operation Dead Eyes?" alone.

 

[Menckenstein]

Just FYI the cutscenes in MP3 are also the loading screens but they should've been skippable after loading finishes, big mistake on Rockstar's part.

 

[Bleed the Man]

Just FYI the cutscenes in MP3 are also the loading screens but they should've been skippable after loading finishes, big mistake on Rockstar's part.

Actually they are skippable when the loading time finishes, the problem is by the time the loading ends, you have watch almost the entire cutscene.

But the problem isn't that they aren't skippable at a practical level, because at least the first time you play the game you will watch them, the problem is the excesive amount of them and the pacing problems they cause. 80% of Max Payne 3 is just one combat scenario, cutscene, another combat scenario, another cutscene... and a lot of these cutscenes that interrupts the continuity of the action are just Max running from one place to place in a super cinematic style, making them absolutely pointless. It disconects you entirely from the experience.

 

[Carrion]

I think it fit the tone well enough. The game wasn't just a noire crime film, it wa also a messed up drug-fueled Ragnarok mindfuck journey to hell (didn't Jack Lupino howling like a wolf and namedropping Cthulhu clue you in to that?) and Deep Six was like the climax of that. Personally, I thought the hotel was actually a bit boring (did we really have to go there twice?)

And besides, it's worth it for the line "Do you have any idea why this is called Operation Dead Eyes?" alone.

Wanted to edit my post to comment on your previous post as well:

MP1's storytelling had problems too, though. In particular, Mona Sax's role in the story was superfluous to the point of bizarreness.

Storywise, Mona Sax is far from being the biggest problem of MP1. How about that huge, stupid conspiracy that involves a female Bill Gates testing supersoldier serum with junkies (what did she hope to gain anyway?), running around a mob boss' mansion waving an assault rifle, and making mysterious phone calls to people's houses right when her hitmen are supposed to be there whacking people? The whole story reminds me of something that I would write as a 12-year-old when trying to write the coolest story ever, starting from a rather mundane revenge story and evolving to include everything from devil worship to nation-wide conspiracies. Many of the clichés are obviously intended (a cop's family being murdered, never heard of that one before...) but at some point it just goes beyond pulp and loses its effectiveness.

Anyway, I don't really buy the "mindfuck journey to hell" approach, because even though the writers obviously wanted to go crazy at times and include surreal elements, those are mostly individual scenes rather than some recurring theme. Between Jack Lupino (who is treated as a total fucking scary lunatic by every other character in the game) and the steel factory you get some of the most mundane levels in the whole game, and the conspiracy is played relatively straight as well. I never got the feeling that it was supposed to be particularly crazy or anything, especially in the context of early 2000's shooter plots, or based on the build-up that lead to it. MP2 could also be described a descent to madness of sorts, but it does a much better job with it by keeping things mostly personal, culminating in Winterson's death which nearly makes Max lose it completely.

Let me also mention that finishing it seven times doesn't even begin to describe how much I've played MP1, so it's not like these are actual problems, just something that I always found a bit lacking about the game.

 

[Astral Rag]

I always liked Mona Sex Sax

Spoiler

 

[Jick Magger]

I felt that MP2 was much more concise tonally. The first game really could not decide whether or not it wanted to be a straight-noir story, or a parody of the genre, which often lead to very jarring shifts in tone and atmosphere. The second game, while getting rid of some of the more bizarre and quirky aspects of the first game, actually had a solid and consistent tone that it successfully pulled off, even with the occasional comedic moments.

 

[Melan]

I like all that stuff. Going up against crazy government conspiracies, old guys playing at being the Illuminati (badly), and finally assaulting a whole skyscraper packed with corporate goons is cool, larger than life action movie stuff. Yes, it has a juvenile pulpy vibe to it, but that just keeps things shaken up. It got unbalanced with the Colt Commando and the rocket launcher, but then having your hands on heavy firepower also felt very satisfying in a way the second game's more fine-tuned weapon arsenal never did. If there is a weak part to the game, it's fighting through a million tenements teeming with your shotgun - fine on its own, but dragged out too much.

The second game's main story-related problem was that it never went anywhere. The "film noir love story" tagline mainly meant Max was left wallowing in his depression and misery, never doing anything about it. The main opponents being a Russian gangster and a group of people working under the guise of a cleaner company doesn't pose an interesting or active opposition, it is not really inspiring. Meanwhile, Mona Sax was a case of taking an interesting side character and removing the individuality that made her interesting by spinning her into Lara Croft / generic action chick. While the first game had interesting subplot, the second was too focused, trying too hard to be that film noir love story. Put these things together, and the chemistry and rage that held MP1 together is missing. The game has too little momentum, and as mentioned before, the levels aren't good enough to carry it.

In many ways, MP was a victim of its own success - the first part turned into a hot IP, and invited the kind of tragic meddling that turns good game franchises into bad movie imitations.

[edit] Inspired by this thread, I've dug out my DVD today and replayed the first part of MP1. Still very enjoyable, and the level design has aged better than I suspected.

 

[Roguey]

The sleep sequences weren't bad; Roguey is trying to trollbait people as always.

They're fine in 2 since they're just short interactive movies. In 1 the slow motion jumping platform mazes are obnoxious.

 

[adddeed]

I have to admit that I am always a tiny bit baffled whenever I hear the Max Payne series being praised so much. I have played both 1 and 2 when they first came out, and both were disappointments.

I remember the story and the art style to be quite interesting, but both to be deserving of a game of a greater quality. It is actually pretty much the same problem than I had with Bioshock Infinite : an interesting setting that fails to be a game.
I read praises and a lot of good things about this series but I never found the gunfight to be as interesting compared to FPS of the eras. I do enjoy some popamole third person shooters once in a while (I loved the Uncharted series), but Max Payne absolutely failed to grab me gameplay wise. Either you didn't use the slow motion thing and it was just awkward , either you used it and well : move forward, jump in slow mo, click on slow mo moving enemies. Repeat. It's a corridor shooter if there ever was one, and not even an interesting one at that.

What kind of nonsense is that? How is Max Payne not a game? Its one of the best 3rd person shooters. Great presentation, great action and set pieces, cool bullet time mechanic, and good controls and action. I've played Max Payne 6 times, and loved it every time.

 

[Multidirectional]

Entire series are best third person shooters I've ever played. 2 is my favorite overall.

 

[DemonKing]

This is actually one of those series where it is hard for me to say whether I preferred the original or sequel (the 3rd installment is obviously languishing behind a bit but wasn't terrible).

MP2 still holds up quite well graphically today but I probably preferred the tone and story of MP1. They both had their fair share of silliness particularly that crap where you had to protect a dude dressed up as "Baseball Bat Guy" in MP2. I guess I'll give it to MP2 with regards to gameplay and MP1 with regards level design. Both great fun though.

 

[sser]

Was MP2 the one that had the flashback levels where you run on cords of blood? I thought that was pretty gnarly. I don't remember much else about it other than it had very tight gameplay and awesome mods all over the fucking place.

I would absolutely consider a remake of MP1 with MP3's graphics, though, and I'm usually one to be disgusted by the 'HD reskin' business.

 

[Grunker]

I felt that MP2 was much more concise tonally. The first game really could not decide whether or not it wanted to be a straight-noir story, or a parody of the genre, which often lead to very jarring shifts in tone and atmosphere. The second game, while getting rid of some of the more bizarre and quirky aspects of the first game, actually had a solid and consistent tone that it successfully pulled off, even with the occasional comedic moments.

Yeah you're right I loved the solid and consistent fart-jokes and GTA humor.

The first game didn't stray at all from it's core noir-notion. The second game was all over the place, drawn out and had no central point. Calling MP2 "concise", lol. It had tons of boring characters and small side-stories that turned into completely different stock Hollywood shit, like Boris, Wintersson and Sax. Defending a screaming bro-humor character dressed as a doll sure felt noir and Payne! Right.

The game was still good because it built on such a solid foundation, but it was way too inconsistent to be at the same level as MP1.

 

[Ninja Destroyer]

The sleep sequences weren't bad; Roguey is trying to trollbait people as always.

They're fine in 2 since they're just short interactive movies. In 1 the slow motion jumping platform mazes are obnoxious.

I would agree if they had many dead ends, but with the layout that's in the game it was really easy to beat them down for me. Let's agree to disagree.

Remedy should make Dick Justice game, like they wanted in the beginning. Yeah baby.

 

[Infinitron]

The sun went down with practiced bravado.

 

[TheGreatOne]

I just got the game last night and I think it is amazing (better than Halo at the very least. BTW, I enjoyed Halo emmensely (Xbox version)).

Vintage codex

 

[Xathrodox86]

Was MP2 the one that had the flashback levels where you run on cords of blood? I thought that was pretty gnarly. I don't remember much else about it other than it had very tight gameplay and awesome mods all over the fucking place.

I would absolutely consider a remake of MP1 with MP3's graphics, though, and I'm usually one to be disgusted by the 'HD reskin' business.

That was the first one, the best one. I've finished MP3 lately and I really liked it. Was much more fun than the medicore MP2, even if half of it consisted of fuggin' cutscenes.

 

[dunno lah]

Max Payne 1 had the best shoot-dodge which covered the most distance. Max Payne 2 did it weirdly in which he jumped higher into the bullet paths before coming down. Furthermore, the dialogue in the graphic novels were not exaggerated with ostentatious metaphors in Max Payne 1.It was darker without an utterance of the usual swear words, yet at the same time introducing an equal amount of cynical humour that portrayed Max as twisted and devious, and not melancholic and self-pitying in the sequels. The enemy AI was also arguably much more varied, unless someone can disprove me on this. Lastly, Sam Lake's smirk and his pimp leather jacket tops the coolness of it all.

If you were to stand behind cover during a shootout in MP1, you'd realize that the enemies are scripted to act the same way everytime and they'll repeat the same movements till death. But I do think that MP1 enemies are a little more "eager" to kill you.

 

[Carrion]

Max Payne 2 had the better shootdodge since you could continue shooting after landing, although overall the combat was clearly less focused around shootdodge than in the first game. Max Payne 2 had vastly superior writing overall whereas MP1 was at times all over the place with its tone, going much further into camp territory in several places (which is not a bad thing in itself and was clearly intentional at times). The enemies were dumb as bricks in MP1, being unable to anything more than follow their scripted patterns slavishly, compensating for their lack of brains with superhuman reaction times and later in the game the ability to take a shotgun blast to the face from point-blank range without so much as being put off their stride. Agreed on Sami Järvi and the overall look of Max.

 

[Copper]

Fuck Havoc physics though, it's like a world made of styrofoam