KickStarter Mechajammer (formerly Copper Dreams) - cyberpunk RPG from Whalenought Studios

[Zombra]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

To be fair their old proposed save system was one in which if you did it in high risk area that would bring additional reinforcements for the enemy.
Probably it was too hard to balance.

 

[ArchAngel]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic, this is just says "fuck it" and does a Diablo thing in a game that has nothing to do with Diablo like games. Come on. PST does something similar but at least it has an in world explanation for how you wake up alive again.

 

[YES!]

So this is their (bad) attempt at defending the save system they talked about in the update:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!

Some notes comments on save system: This is probably worth going into more detail with another update, but we wanted to strive to make the gameplay have actual consequence. The machine gun saving system encourages a carefree gameplay that lets you just redo challenges to get a desired result, so while you can try new things there’s no consequence to failure, it’s just a meta-game. We want setting off a trap not just be a reason for reload, but a permanent result for lack of spot-checking. So while we’re trying to design more of a p&p style game, we didn't want you to have to roll new characters or redo content on death so you can progress throughout it. That’s going to end up with something super gamey, but making it fun is what was important.

Dying then is sort of similar to something like Diablo. Time passes as you wake up (which changes time-of-day events), and you keep the wounds that took you down so you’d maybe want to patch up before progressing. Because a nerve gas agent exploding in your face probably wouldn’t result in your character just waking up in the sewers with a headache, we’re not trying to overthink the simulationist aspects to it and overall let it be gamey to hopefully result in more p&p like dungeon crawling gameplay.

The alpha will include this, and we’re open to more ideas to develop the best roleplaying gameplay systems we can with you guys.

I am for one not satisfied with this. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

Don't you pirate all your games? Why would devs care what pirates think? I pay for my games and love this idea.

 

[Zombra]

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic

Here we go again. There is no such thing as an out of game game mechanic.

 

[ArchAngel]

So this is their (bad) attempt at defending the save system they talked about in the update:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!

Some notes comments on save system: This is probably worth going into more detail with another update, but we wanted to strive to make the gameplay have actual consequence. The machine gun saving system encourages a carefree gameplay that lets you just redo challenges to get a desired result, so while you can try new things there’s no consequence to failure, it’s just a meta-game. We want setting off a trap not just be a reason for reload, but a permanent result for lack of spot-checking. So while we’re trying to design more of a p&p style game, we didn't want you to have to roll new characters or redo content on death so you can progress throughout it. That’s going to end up with something super gamey, but making it fun is what was important.

Dying then is sort of similar to something like Diablo. Time passes as you wake up (which changes time-of-day events), and you keep the wounds that took you down so you’d maybe want to patch up before progressing. Because a nerve gas agent exploding in your face probably wouldn’t result in your character just waking up in the sewers with a headache, we’re not trying to overthink the simulationist aspects to it and overall let it be gamey to hopefully result in more p&p like dungeon crawling gameplay.

The alpha will include this, and we’re open to more ideas to develop the best roleplaying gameplay systems we can with you guys.

I am for one not satisfied with this. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

Don't you pirate all your games? Why would devs care what pirates think? I pay for my games and love this idea.

No, just bad ones I want to try so I can bash it better (like Fo4) or overpriced ones (which turns into any AAA or most AA games since I live in a shit country that has Germany level prices on Steam for some stupid reason).
This one I am a KS backer.

 

[YES!]

So this is their (bad) attempt at defending the save system they talked about in the update:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!

Some notes comments on save system: This is probably worth going into more detail with another update, but we wanted to strive to make the gameplay have actual consequence. The machine gun saving system encourages a carefree gameplay that lets you just redo challenges to get a desired result, so while you can try new things there’s no consequence to failure, it’s just a meta-game. We want setting off a trap not just be a reason for reload, but a permanent result for lack of spot-checking. So while we’re trying to design more of a p&p style game, we didn't want you to have to roll new characters or redo content on death so you can progress throughout it. That’s going to end up with something super gamey, but making it fun is what was important.

Dying then is sort of similar to something like Diablo. Time passes as you wake up (which changes time-of-day events), and you keep the wounds that took you down so you’d maybe want to patch up before progressing. Because a nerve gas agent exploding in your face probably wouldn’t result in your character just waking up in the sewers with a headache, we’re not trying to overthink the simulationist aspects to it and overall let it be gamey to hopefully result in more p&p like dungeon crawling gameplay.

The alpha will include this, and we’re open to more ideas to develop the best roleplaying gameplay systems we can with you guys.

I am for one not satisfied with this. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

Don't you pirate all your games? Why would devs care what pirates think? I pay for my games and love this idea.

No, just bad ones I want to try so I can bash it better (like Fo4) or overpriced ones (which turns into any AAA or most AA games since I live in a shit country that has Germany level prices on Steam for some stupid reason).
This one I am a KS backer.

Jimmious said: ↑
Who will take one for the team?
Click to expand...
I will once it can be found at your local friendly neighbourhood high seas highwayman.

Why do you play bad games? You pirate reasonably priced Indie games that need every sale. That's fucked up. And statistically speaking pirates only buy games they cannot pirate or have all they functionality they want when pirating.

You want to pirate console games? Good for you. I don't care and I hope all console game makers close down. There is no reason a game should cost 100s of millions to make.

You pirate indie games by devs living on the razor thin edge of closing all the time and who sell their games at reasonable prices, I honestly believe this site should IP ban everyone who does that. With Steam's liberal return policy there is no reason to ever pirate an indie game. Shock Tactics is a decent game and on sale and Battle Brother's costs 50% more without the current ST sale. Stop being a dick and fucking the little guys working their asses off and who have the courage to take risks most people are unwilling to.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic

Here we go again. There is no such thing as an out of game game mechanic.

Yes there are. Hex editing, trainers etc...

 

[ArchAngel]

So this is their (bad) attempt at defending the save system they talked about in the update:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!

Some notes comments on save system: This is probably worth going into more detail with another update, but we wanted to strive to make the gameplay have actual consequence. The machine gun saving system encourages a carefree gameplay that lets you just redo challenges to get a desired result, so while you can try new things there’s no consequence to failure, it’s just a meta-game. We want setting off a trap not just be a reason for reload, but a permanent result for lack of spot-checking. So while we’re trying to design more of a p&p style game, we didn't want you to have to roll new characters or redo content on death so you can progress throughout it. That’s going to end up with something super gamey, but making it fun is what was important.

Dying then is sort of similar to something like Diablo. Time passes as you wake up (which changes time-of-day events), and you keep the wounds that took you down so you’d maybe want to patch up before progressing. Because a nerve gas agent exploding in your face probably wouldn’t result in your character just waking up in the sewers with a headache, we’re not trying to overthink the simulationist aspects to it and overall let it be gamey to hopefully result in more p&p like dungeon crawling gameplay.

The alpha will include this, and we’re open to more ideas to develop the best roleplaying gameplay systems we can with you guys.

I am for one not satisfied with this. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

Don't you pirate all your games? Why would devs care what pirates think? I pay for my games and love this idea.

No, just bad ones I want to try so I can bash it better (like Fo4) or overpriced ones (which turns into any AAA or most AA games since I live in a shit country that has Germany level prices on Steam for some stupid reason).
This one I am a KS backer.

Jimmious said: ↑
Who will take one for the team?
Click to expand...
I will once it can be found at your local friendly neighbourhood high seas highwayman.

Why do you play bad games? You pirate reasonably priced Indie games that need every sale. That's fucked up. And statistically speaking pirates only buy games they cannot pirate or have all they functionality they want when pirating.

You want to pirate console games? Good for you. I don't care and I hope all console game makers close down. There is no reason a game should cost 100s of millions to make.

You pirate indie games by devs living on the razor thin edge of closing all the time and who sell their games at reasonable prices, I honestly believe this site should IP ban everyone who does that. With Steam's liberal return policy there is no reason to ever pirate an indie game. Shock Tactics is a decent game and on sale and Battle Brother's costs 50% more without the current ST sale. Stop being a dick and fucking the little guys working their asses off and who have the courage to take risks most people are unwilling to.

Life is complicated. When you grow up you will understand.

 

[ArchAngel]

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic

Here we go again. There is no such thing as an out of game game mechanic.

Out of game as is not part of game story and mechanics connected with the story. Unless they connect it like PST did or TToN.

 

[Zombra]

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic

Here we go again. There is no such thing as an out of game game mechanic.

Out of game as is not part of game story and mechanics connected with the story. Unless they connect it like PST did or TToN.

Now you're simply defining things as important because you like them. "This way is good because it fits a narrow set of parameters I like that I therefore define as good." Nobody cares.

It's OK if you like traditional "anything goes" save systems, but stop lying to yourself that it's OK for them to not make sense because "it's not a game mechanic".

 

[ArchAngel]

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic

Here we go again. There is no such thing as an out of game game mechanic.

Out of game as is not part of game story and mechanics connected with the story. Unless they connect it like PST did or TToN.

Now you're simply defining things as important because you like them. "This way is good because it fits a narrow set of parameters I like that I therefore define as good." Nobody cares.

It's OK if you like traditional "anything goes" save systems, but stop lying to yourself that it's OK for them to not make sense because "it's not a game mechanic".

I am not lying to anyone. I like games to be consistent. I like stories to be consistent and I like movies to be consistent. Those that pride themselves on simulating stuff I expect more. Copper Dreams is such a game. And now I find they want to introduce shitty mechanics found in Diablo?! WTF?!
And with no good reason even. I guess the real reason is they don't want to spend time making a UI for a proper save/load system with multiple saves. Or maybe they want to put hard combat left and right that will often kill the player and get them to zerg over and over instead of load the same save for X times until player figures out how to win. Maybe they feel this way that hard combat will have less complaining than when people need to load same save game X times.

 

[YES!]

So this is their (bad) attempt at defending the save system they talked about in the update:

Hey guys, thanks for the feedback!

Some notes comments on save system: This is probably worth going into more detail with another update, but we wanted to strive to make the gameplay have actual consequence. The machine gun saving system encourages a carefree gameplay that lets you just redo challenges to get a desired result, so while you can try new things there’s no consequence to failure, it’s just a meta-game. We want setting off a trap not just be a reason for reload, but a permanent result for lack of spot-checking. So while we’re trying to design more of a p&p style game, we didn't want you to have to roll new characters or redo content on death so you can progress throughout it. That’s going to end up with something super gamey, but making it fun is what was important.

Dying then is sort of similar to something like Diablo. Time passes as you wake up (which changes time-of-day events), and you keep the wounds that took you down so you’d maybe want to patch up before progressing. Because a nerve gas agent exploding in your face probably wouldn’t result in your character just waking up in the sewers with a headache, we’re not trying to overthink the simulationist aspects to it and overall let it be gamey to hopefully result in more p&p like dungeon crawling gameplay.

The alpha will include this, and we’re open to more ideas to develop the best roleplaying gameplay systems we can with you guys.

I am for one not satisfied with this. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

Don't you pirate all your games? Why would devs care what pirates think? I pay for my games and love this idea.

No, just bad ones I want to try so I can bash it better (like Fo4) or overpriced ones (which turns into any AAA or most AA games since I live in a shit country that has Germany level prices on Steam for some stupid reason).
This one I am a KS backer.

Jimmious said: ↑
Who will take one for the team?
Click to expand...
I will once it can be found at your local friendly neighbourhood high seas highwayman.

Why do you play bad games? You pirate reasonably priced Indie games that need every sale. That's fucked up. And statistically speaking pirates only buy games they cannot pirate or have all they functionality they want when pirating.

You want to pirate console games? Good for you. I don't care and I hope all console game makers close down. There is no reason a game should cost 100s of millions to make.

You pirate indie games by devs living on the razor thin edge of closing all the time and who sell their games at reasonable prices, I honestly believe this site should IP ban everyone who does that. With Steam's liberal return policy there is no reason to ever pirate an indie game. Shock Tactics is a decent game and on sale and Battle Brother's costs 50% more without the current ST sale. Stop being a dick and fucking the little guys working their asses off and who have the courage to take risks most people are unwilling to.

Life is complicated. When you grow up you will understand.

I'm sure your life is so rough and complicated that you are forced to steal indie games from hard working people to waste some of your leisure time with.

You most likely pay for the fancy console games that can afford to be pirated. You steal the rest.

I'm almost certain you didn't kickstart shit.

I'm 100% certain no developer or money paying customer should give a shit about what sort of save system you and your ilk like. Only people who pay money or put the work in should have a say in this shit.

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic, this is just says "fuck it" and does a Diablo thing in a game that has nothing to do with Diablo like games. Come on. PST does something similar but at least it has an in world explanation for how you wake up alive again.

A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.

I initially hesitated but...turn-based, cyberpunk AND horror?? FUck, that sounds awesome. Horror in RPGs badly needed - only Bloodlines really scared the shit out of me.
The game in general looks very polished. Was initially confused with all the new elements (combat, graphics etc.).

Whalenought_Joe is released still planned/possible for this year? I noticed the Kickstarter originally mentioned March 2017 as possible date...(obviously no longer relevant)

Btw. did you look to Hard Boiled comics for inspiration? High level of violence and cool futuristic world:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Hard-Boiled-Frank-Miller/dp/1878574582

- Digg

That's awesome (and that gun is the business). I haven't checked that one out before, but I've heard it's wonderful.

I think we tried to save our skin on a release date on the Kicsktarter by saying somewhere that we're not making any definitive one until we're ready, but yeah we originally intended to start pushing public content out this summer, which is where that March came from.

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

To be fair their old proposed save system was one in which if you did it in high risk area that would bring additional reinforcements for the enemy.
Probably it was too hard to balance.

It was getting to the point where weren't satisfied designing maps with save-safe areas in hostile places that might as well had giant neon lights reading "SAVE HERE DUMMIES", and then balancing how much content/dangers were in-between each of them so redoing content wouldn't be too tedious. It fundamentally wasn't working as we originally designed it to, so it needed to change.

 

[Infinitron]

Whalenought_Joe Would it be correct to assume that the game has taken on a "mission-oriented" structure? The death system seems to imply something like that.

 

[daveyd]

I'm sure your life is so rough and complicated that you are forced to steal indie games from hard working people to waste some of your leisure time with.

You most likely pay for the fancy console games that can afford to be pirated. You steal the rest.

I'm almost certain you didn't kickstart shit.

I'm 100% certain no developer or money paying customer should give a shit about what sort of save system you and your ilk like. Only people who pay money or put the work in should have a say in this shit.

FWIW

 

[Whalenought_Joe]

Whalenought_Joe Would it be correct to assume that the game has taken on a "mission-oriented" structure? The death system seems to imply something like that.

The structure remains the same as mentioned in the original Kickstarter with a select number of 'water-chip' high-level goals that branch. When we finalized some of the story to work more appropriately with maps it's changed a bit, but is still quite similar, much more room for player agency. We'll talk about that before the alpha.

 

[ArchAngel]

I am for one not satisfied with [the save system]. If a game breaks immersion this badly it affects my enjoyment a lot.

You're not OK with a new save system where you wake up injured, yet you are fine with a traditional save system where you reappear completely unhurt and you get to magically retry everything you did?

Think it through, man. Traditional save systems are just as stupid and nonimmersive, actually much moreso; you're just habituated to them and scared of something new.

At least that one uses an out of game mechanic, this is just says "fuck it" and does a Diablo thing in a game that has nothing to do with Diablo like games. Come on. PST does something similar but at least it has an in world explanation for how you wake up alive again.

A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.

It does not need to be magic. Satellite Reign had agents upload their knowledge into new body. You are in a cyberpunk world, you can come up with some advanced tech explanation. Have our main character have some unique ability that lets them survive death with some penalty.
PnP has raise dead or permadeath. Raise dead usually has a penalty beyond time. How about you pay someone to have extra body in a safe place while you carry a device on your body that uploads your consciousness through it once it detects you died. You need to pay each time for new body (or find suitable people yourself and subdue them and bring them to that place). It makes the whole thing make sense, it is costly and cannot let players zerg combat and provides moral problems. While some bodies can be taken from people whose brain basically died but body is good condition you could for example buy a body from a guy by promising to take care of his wife and kids or maybe just buy them from some kidnappers and such.

But if you are not willing to provide in world explanation for miraculous revivals, than only way to bring that PnP experience is Ironman mode, not this Diablo bullshit.

 

[hell bovine]

A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.

I don't mind experimental save systems, as long as they are optional. Because in a single-player cRPG, I don't care how others play the game; whether they ironman or reload spam, and as such I don't care for game mechanics trying to 'police' playing styles.

 

[The Fish]

A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.

I don't mind experimental save systems, as long as they are optional. Because in a single-player cRPG, I don't care how others play the game; whether they ironman or reload spam, and as such I don't care for game mechanics trying to 'police' playing styles.

The problem with this is that the save system informs the entire design. It's true that pillars of eternity has an ironman mode for those who want it, but its design isn't as congruent with an ironman mode as a game with soft failure (like xcom).

That the save system is getting attention is a great thing in my eyes. It would have been very easy for them to implement the typical save anywhere system and no one would complain - despite the game probably being worse for it. Save scummy systems aren't the most satisfying and with such a system you're often encouraged to brute force your way through problems. Hopefully there's some hard, save deleting, failure within the new system.

 

[hell bovine]

A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.

I don't mind experimental save systems, as long as they are optional. Because in a single-player cRPG, I don't care how others play the game; whether they ironman or reload spam, and as such I don't care for game mechanics trying to 'police' playing styles.

The problem with this is that the save system informs the entire design. It's true that pillars of eternity has an ironman mode for those who want it, but its design isn't as congruent with an ironman mode as a game with soft failure (like xcom).

That the save system is getting attention is a great thing in my eyes. It would have been very easy for them to implement the typical save anywhere system and no one would complain - despite the game probably being worse for it. Save scummy systems aren't the most satisfying and with such a system you're often encouraged to brute force your way through problems. Hopefully there's some hard, save deleting, failure within the new system.

Baldur's Gate doesn't have an 'ironman mode' at all, yet the "no reload" challenge was running on the old bioware boards for years (before they closed them down). By comparison, Pillars combat was so bland for me, that having an optional ironmode made no difference, because I'm not going to bother replaying that game either way. If the game mechanics are good enough to stand on their own, you don't need a save system to police players.

"A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results" - Frankly, if your dialogues immediately let you know which is the better result, then I'd say your quest design is the problem. No save system is going to fix that. If on the other hand you'll see the consequences of a dialogue check only somewhere down the line (and isn't that the point of playing a spy game? double-crossing agents and unpredictable turn of event galore?), then you don't have to worry about players meta-gaming by reloading. And if combat design is good, then a character tripping the alarm and having to fight his way is going to be simply a fun alternative to sneaking.

 

[The Fish]

Frankly, if your dialogues immediately let you know which is the better result,

This is largely a problem with save scum systems and the solution of having delayed outcomes is only really necessitated in save scum games. In games where you can't save scum you'll often not be aware of how much better or worse your choice was, even if the outcomes are immediate. Though I would agree that delayed outcomes are probably preferable the degree to which they're preferable very much depends on what type of save system you're using.

Baldur's Gate doesn't have an 'ironman mode' at all, yet the "no reload" challenge was running on the old bioware boards for years

You can play pretty much any game in a hardcore manner, the point is however that not all games are effected similarly by that decision. Playing Baldur's gate ironman isn't to Baldur's gate save scum what Path of Exile hardcore is to Path of Exile softcore. It may very well be true that baldur's gate is enjoyable in both ways and pillars enjoyable in neither way but what I was saying was that some games (Path of Exile, XCOM) are made much better in ironman while some are the same, worse or not a lot better (baldur's gate). So just saying "every game can be ironman if you want" isn't good enough because the design interacts with the save system.

 

[ArchAngel]

Baldur's Gate is 2x better in Ironman mode. You actually have to use scrolls, potions and wands when playing Ironman.

 

[The Fish]

Baldur's Gate is 2x better in Ironman mode. You actually have to use scrolls, potions and wands when playing Ironman.

Do you think that proves baldur's gate couldn't have been improved had it been designed primarily an ironman game?