Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

[Hobo Elf]

Yeah i'm cherry picking. Who's entirely focused on a single line over my message for several posts now ?

I'm a good folk anyway so i'm gonna answer again, fuck me if you still do the ostrich after that.
Regarding platformers, how would you translate mario 64 levels in the 2D fashion of classic marios ? Right, you can't. These are 3D games.

"But they can be done in 2D as well, so there's nothing unique about them being 3D -You". For the record I don't think either 2D or 3D platformers are more or less superior than the other, I'm just making the same argument you are to show you how you can apply your argument when you simplify enough. But that said, you don't actually have a point here. You just said "Mario 64 can't be done in 2D just because it can't". Oh, okay? So why does this apply to Mario but not Metal Gear Solid? Because you like it more?

Regarding the gameplay of MGS1/2/3, it's baffling that you'd think gameplay suffices to itself. Like, you put a gameplay feature in a game and it's magically worth something, or rather it's magically relevant. And yet you don't want to aknowledge the fact that a gameplay mechanic is nothing without a proper level design to support it in a series of games that is notorious in that regard : MGSIV has a solid gameplay in itself, really, you could do a shit ton of stuff to go through the levels, yet it was worth no shit since the level design was banal shit boring and didn't require anything more but crawling to the end of the corridor. Who the fuck uses the robot in this game, really ?

No, the only problem here is you and your attitude. You invalidate a large chunk of the game because it doesn't interest you. You think it's worthless that you can shoot enemies who are higher up or lower than you to tranq and put them to sleep. Well, I don't. I see that as just one more option given to me on how I can approach my goal. And what about the level design sucks? What's crap about it? Again you complaing but offer no examples. It's hard for anyone to understand what you are talking about because you don't try to frame your opinion. All you are doing is crying that it's shit because it's shit. Okay. And who the fuck uses the robot? Uh, me? I use it sometimes if I want to do things differently. Do I have to use it? No. Just like I don't have to sneak around and do non-lethal takedowns, I could just as easily run and gun, but I don't have to do that. I like to sneak and I like to take down my enemies in a non-lethal way. This is just going back to what I said about having more options to approach a goal. It's no one elses fault but yours that you weren't able to figure out a use for something.

I totally forgot, i swear, that you could go first person with the nikita missile... i fucking wonder why ? Could it have to do with the fact that it not only isn't required at all for the ONLY use of the nikita in the whole game but although because the base view while controlling the missile is from the above, in a clear way to say "where do you want to go on the xy plane milord ?" ? I'm pretty sure 80% of the players never realized they could go first person with it, and probably never did so because it never hit them that the height could be of any importance, not that I'd reproach that to them.

Again, you complain about a feature because you weren't smart enough to figure out a clever use for it. I already gave you one example on how you can use the Nikita in a clever way to cheese an otherwise annoying and difficult boss fight. There's more you can do with it than that as well. MGS has always had a ton more ways for you to do something that you never would've thought of, myself included. That's why watching those "trick" videos of people fucking around in MGS are so impressive to me. They do things that I could've never come up on my own.

Thank you however to remind me of the sniper sequences, isn't there a better way to point out how crappy any proper aiming in the game actually feels like. Everytime I reach that point where sniper wolf lurks in front of me, my hands are shaking and my ass is sweating "boy it's time for that awful awful moment again". Yet ironically, Sniper Wolf never leaves the xz plane

There was nothing particularly good or bad about aiming with the sniper in this game. It's about what you'd expect from trying to do FPP aiming with a controller.

The copter fight in MGS, whether you realized it or not, happens on the same good ol' xy plane. The chopper sometimes go over you but only to go to its next position, which is conveniently placed on a side of the building so you can still hide behind some random shit, like from any grounded foe really.

"It's 2D except when it goes 3D". What? The Hid-D clearly operates in a 3D space as it is apparent when it flies away all the while the stingers are following it, also in a 3D space.

The fact you consider that the auto-aim targeting up and down automatically proves that it's impossible to translate it in 2D is rather laughable, so thank you for that.

So how do you translate up and down aiming in a 3D game to 2D? I'm waiting. You invalidate it because it's not done from a FPP or TPP (from over the shoulder) view, yet, for all intents and purposes, it works the exact same way. There's elevation and you shoot either up, down or forward.

There's 3D as 3D modelization and there's 3D as 3D movement, aiming, vizualizing the level and shit - in a word 3D gameplay

Yes, a 3D world that exists in MGS. Even you keep admitting it, but then not because ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the very reason these two things are different explain the existence, especially on the ps1, of "2.5D" with shit like Crash, Tombi and the good old MGS.
"Crash isn't 2.5D you can go in any direction and jump !" is basically what you're saying right now.

No, I'm saying that your argument can be used to simplify nearly any game to a point where the 3D is not needed for anything. Also, what's the difference between Crash and Mario 64, other than Mario 64 having freeform levels? 2.5D means the game plane is 2D but the game has 3D graphics. Crash is clearly 3D in its gameplay, it's just restricted to a similar level layout that old 2D platformers had.[/quote]

And you still haven't offered any examples of how MGS should've done its 3D gameplay, because clearly operating in a 3D space is not enough for you. Except when it is in some specific games that you like.

 

[J_C]

I just want Metal Gear: Hitman: Blood Money, the game.

Is that so FUCKING much to ask, world?

It actually is. :D

 

[bonescraper]

Fuck, i'd really love a good camo guide or at least a better explanation of the camo mechanics.

 

[sexbad?]

You are pretty much alone in thinking the early missions of TPP are better than Camp Omega lol.

Also good job not addressing a single point I raised in my post that had more effort put into it than every ounce of inanity you've spewed in this entire thread combined.

Stay pleb and thanks for the laughs.

You wouldn't know effort if it facefucked you

 

[Echo Mirage]

Is it just me or do alert phases never end?

As soon as the guards notice something wrong they will search continuously even when told to stand down by the CP.

Also even after the patches my version is still 1.01. Not sure if that's a bug or not.

 

[Hobo Elf]

They tighten up security because they know someone is sneaking around, of course they are more prone to seeing you again if they saw you once already.

 

[Phage]

Man, so... that ending.

Spoiler

The hospital was by far the worst level in the game in terms of mechanics (pretty much some last of us tier cinematic bullshit), and being forced to go through it again was awful, especially since the only difference was the... face being unraveled?

The big TWISTS after that were... uh... the thing that everyone predicted years before the game's release. That Venom Snake wasn't really Big Boss. That the real Big Boss would be off making Outer Heaven. This is shit people on /v/ spouted as gospel back in 2013. Hurp.

It was fairly pointless too - other than, I guess, to tie into Zero's obsession with making copies of Snake.

I did like Zero's tape recordings though.

Also, about the cut mission:

Spoiler

If you watch the video of what it was going to be from the collector's blu ray: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B4JIHh5Jqk

It must have been extremely far in development since there are "30% complete" cutscenes, and all of the voice acting finished.

I also get the impression that a lot of these "REPLAY THIS MISSION ON EXTREME" were going to be different, leading up to that Episode 51.

Still, even WITH episode 51, the story feels fairly incomplete - I wonder if more was planned after or not.

Anyways, the end of the game left a bad taste in my mouth for sure. That said, I really enjoyed my time with it for the most part, especially around when you enter Africa, which is when the missions started gitting gud. I played for 46 hours over the course of a week - a level of captivation that only a few titles manage to pull off.

If the cut content somehow gets cobbled together by people who worked on the game, I'm sure I'd let Konami anally rape me into coughing up 10 bucks for it. I'm not holding my breath though, not as long as there are levers to be hit.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Personally, storywise, I think the whole thing about MGSV was a mistake and utterly pointless. We learned everything we needed to know about Big Boss in MGS3, we didn't need more expansion upon that, especially since it felt like it didn't go in any kind of important direction here. In the end I think it kinda made the ending in MGS4 less impactful. Personally if I was in charge, I would've made MGSV a remake of MG1 and 2 but with the story updated in a way that it bridges the series between MGS3-Metal Gear1/2-Metal Gear Solid in a coherent way that makes sense with all the new story elements that were added after Metal Gear.

 

[CptMace]

And you still haven't offered any examples of how MGS should've done its 3D gameplay, because clearly operating in a 3D space is not enough for you. Except when it is in some specific games that you like.

I think that's because you missed my original point.
I admit and present, out of faggotry, my apologies for going full retard on many aspects regarding MGS2 and 3, they indeed used a way better level design for their 3D gameplay uses. True that there's more than just aiming the head in FPP in these games, the chopper fight from MGS2 is an example as it really enhances the first MGS' one imo.

But I want to clarify what I mean with 2.5D design. It's inherited from the original Metal Gear and it's easy to expose it through a simple exercise, you take most levels (there are a couple of exceptions) of MGS1, you look at 'em from above and you realize they're crystal clear. The same doesn't apply, as you claim, for proper 3D games from the same era, and from any genre really, like mario 64 or half life or zelda 64 or whatever. Take the clock level from Mario 64, there's no perspective that allows to aprehend the level easily, you need several ones to see what the shit is about. You can't either do that for the layout of black mesa, though there are a lot of corridors, there although are a lot of 3 dimensional parts where you gotta pay attention to every direction.
Yet that's not true for MGS1 layout in most levels.

Spoiler

There is height per se in all these levels, yet it doesn't come into account gameplay-wise. There's a staircase leading to catwalk on the second screen, but there's nothing below that part of the level, in such a way that taken from above you don't miss a thing. And 90% of the levels work that way.
Hence why, imo, you question about how to translate the "aiming up or low" in a 2D game doesn't make sense, because there is no difference gameplay-wise between aiming in a direction in a 2D game and doing the exact same command output in a 3D game which automatically aims up or low to the enemy (like in this staircase part when a shitload of dudes come to you).
This is why MGS should be considered 2.5D for most of its gameplay sequences and why it'd be easy to make a fully 2D version of it, which wouldn't alter the gameplay that much. That's the base design of the game and that's what's inherited from the original Metal Gear games.

Konami team took Metal Gear and went like "how do we keep that but make it 3D" and that's the result. If Nintendo did the same for Mario, it would have ended up as Crash Bandicoot. They went for a fully 3D design thinking process and most mario 64 levels are barely conceivable on a single geometrical plane. Same for half life.

Spoiler

 

[Phage]

Personally, storywise, I think the whole thing about MGSV was a mistake and utterly pointless. We learned everything we needed to know about Big Boss in MGS3, we didn't need more expansion upon that, especially since it felt like it didn't go in any kind of important direction here. In the end I think it kinda made the ending in MGS4 less impactful. Personally if I was in charge, I would've made MGSV a remake of MG1 and 2 but with the story updated in a way that it bridges the series between MGS3-Metal Gear1/2-Metal Gear Solid in a coherent way that makes sense with all the new story elements that were added after Metal Gear.

I generally agree with your sentiment. That said, V's plot could've been decent, but:

Spoiler

The biggest problem is the whole Venom thing means that we didn't get to see BB's descent into madness. Instead of piloting BB through a bunch of horrors that slowly warp his humanity, we're piloting... some double. A double that had no role or real place in the timeline, just thrown in for 'THE EPIC TWIST!'

It was blatantly clear from the start when some guy who is a clone of you leads you out of the hospital, in which a supernatural man on fire, and telekinetic child assault you, that something pretty nutty was going on. The twist wasn't really... surprising. It was just kind of expected.

He could've had the twist halfway through the game, and done something clever with it - maybe you meet up with the real BB, have a conflict with him or something. Instead, we get this kind of tacked on TWIST that everyone familiar with Kojimbo saw coming a mile away.

But yeah, a MG1/2 remake would've been much better.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I think that's because you missed my original point.
I admit and present, out of faggotry, my apologies for going full retard on many aspects regarding MGS2 and 3, they indeed used a way better level design for their 3D gameplay uses. True that there's more than just aiming the head in FPP in these games, the chopper fight from MGS2 is an example as it really enhances the first MGS' one imo.

But I want to clarify what I mean with 2.5D design. It's inherited from the original Metal Gear and it's easy to expose it through a simple exercise, you take most levels (there are a couple of exceptions) of MGS1, you look at 'em from above and you realize they're crystal clear. The same doesn't apply, as you claim, for proper 3D games from the same era, and from any genre really, like mario 64 or half life or zelda 64 or whatever. Take the clock level from Mario 64, there's no perspective that allows to aprehend the level easily, you need several ones to see what the shit is about. You can't either do that for the layout of black mesa, though there are a lot of corridors, there although are a lot of 3 dimensional parts where you gotta pay attention to every direction.
Yet that's not true for MGS1 layout in most levels.

Spoiler

There is height per se in all these levels, yet it doesn't come into account gameplay-wise. There's a staircase leading to catwalk on the second screen, but there's nothing below that part of the level, in such a way that taken from above you don't miss a thing. And 90% of the levels work that way.
Hence why, imo, you question about how to translate the "aiming up or low" in a 2D game doesn't make sense, because there is no difference gameplay-wise between aiming in a direction in a 2D game and doing the exact same command output in a 3D game which automatically aims up or low to the enemy (like in this staircase part when a shitload of dudes come to you).
This is why MGS should be considered 2.5D for most of its gameplay sequences and why it'd be easy to make a fully 2D version of it, which wouldn't alter the gameplay that much. That's the base design of the game and that's what's inherited from the original Metal Gear games.

Konami team took Metal Gear and went like "how do we keep that but make it 3D" and that's the result. If Nintendo did the same for Mario, it would have ended up as Crash Bandicoot. They went for a fully 3D design thinking process and most mario 64 levels are barely conceivable on a single geometrical plane. Same for half life.

Spoiler

Yeah I see your point about MGS1, I just don't agree with it entirely. I agree that MGS1 could work as a 2D game, but I think it's still enhanced by the 3D and there are parts of the game that make it work better in a 3D environment than it would in a 2D one, even if the game doesn't capitalize on the extra dimension all the time. The reason I don't agree with you completely is because MGS1 is a very primitive game compared to the later games in the series, there's no question about it, but that doesn't invalidate the game imo. In my eyes MGS is one of the rare series that never dumbed down its gameplay but always took what the previous game did and tried to expand upon it in the next iteration. With more memory on the PS2 they were able to make more complex and meaningful level layouts than they were able to do in MGS1, but that's not to say that MGS1 could be pulled off in its entirety as a 2D game on the MSX. You can't, for example, sit on one end of a room in the bottom floor and shoot a guided missile through a 3D space into a terrorists face, who is residing higher up than you, in MG. Whether or not you consider this to be important or needed, it's still there and only possible because of 3D, even if it feels a bit gimmicky at times. But then again I think there are plenty of games being made that don't need to be 3D. It's mostly just graphics whoring instead of doing something meaningful with the new dimension.

Also, in MGS3 if you shoot someone in the dick you'll have a ghost come limping at you while holding his crotch when you fight against The Sorrow. Now that's innovative thinking in a 3D space.

I generally agree with your sentiment. That said, V's plot could've been decent, but:

Spoiler

The biggest problem is the whole Venom thing means that we didn't get to see BB's descent into madness. Instead of piloting BB through a bunch of horrors that slowly warp his humanity, we're piloting... some double. A double that had no role or real place in the timeline, just thrown in for 'THE EPIC TWIST!'

It was blatantly clear from the start when some guy who is a clone of you leads you out of the hospital, in which a supernatural man on fire, and telekinetic child assault you, that something pretty nutty was going on. The twist wasn't really... surprising. It was just kind of expected.

He could've had the twist halfway through the game, and done something clever with it - maybe you meet up with the real BB, have a conflict with him or something. Instead, we get this kind of tacked on TWIST that everyone familiar with Kojimbo saw coming a mile away.

But yeah, a MG1/2 remake would've been much better.

Yes, the plot could've been decent and much better than what it is, but I still think it'd be a pointless part of the saga that doesn't add anything important. Agreed completely with everything in the spoiler.

 

[TheHeroOfTime]

Camp omega is overrated. East part is decent designed, west one is pretty generic. The whole scenario feels like a "remake" or a tribute to the Shadow moses heliport scenario than anthing else. I had more fun in other bases on TPP.

 

[J_C]

Personally, storywise, I think the whole thing about MGSV was a mistake and utterly pointless. We learned everything we needed to know about Big Boss in MGS3,

I don't agree with this. I haven't played MGSV yet, so I don't know what's it is about, but having played every other MGS game, I can say there is a huge gap in story between MGS3 and MG1. I mean in MGS 3 Big Boss is a good guy who, although disgusted by the US, is still a hero. And we have him in MG1, basicly the devil himself. There is a lot of explanation needed about how did he fall, and Peace Walker, and presumably MGSV gave this explanation.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I don't agree with this. I haven't played MGSV yet, so I don't know what's it is about, but having played every other MGS game, I can say there is a huge gap in story between MGS3 and MG1. I mean in MGS 3 Big Boss is a good guy who, although disgusted by the US, is still a hero. And we have him in MG1, basicly the devil himself. There is a lot of explanation needed about how did he fall, and Peace Walker, and presumably MGSV gave this explanation.

It doesn't explain Big Boss' fall, unfortunately. I won't explain why to you because you probably wan't to avoid spoilers.

 

[Adon]

I'm probably one of the few who thinks MG2 did enough of an explanation for BB's madness. He was soldier who couldn't live a normal life, and liked the glory that came with being a commodity in the battlefield. I never felt that needed more of an explanation. Granted MGS3 does add a layer to it that I'm fine with.

But yes, as far as MGSV goes, can't say I was disappointed. After the trash that was MGS4 and the mediocrity of Peace Walker, I wasn't expecting much from Kojima story-wise -- even with the meta.

 

[J_C]

It doesn't explain Big Boss' fall, unfortunately. I won't explain why to you because you probably wan't to avoid spoilers.

Oh, OK. I will see it myself in a few days.

 

[dunno lah]

Too bad this is the last proper Metal Gear game. I think some of these ideas deserved to be carried forward one more time, into a more 'traditional' MG experience, meaning infiltrating a large base, or several large bases. The Tanker, Shadow Moses, and Omega camp are the best areas post the 2D games. I like desert settings and all, but I want Ground Zeroes x10.

And major props need to be given to Yoji Shinkawa. His work on this series has been an aesthetic triumph. Not all of the designs work, but no other series has been as visually cool since the release of MGS1. A perfect partnership of theme and artist. It's like he distilled everything about cyberpunk and military themed anime that wasn't shit and put it into these games. You see how everyone who makes futuristic combat/stealth video games copies this guy, from Human Revolution to Advanced Warfare. He needs to form new studio with Kojima and make proper Ghost in the Shell game

So you want a Metal Gear remake lah...

 

[KK1001]

No more Metal Gear. Please.

If Kojima isn't relegated to begging for money on Kickstarter in a year, put that man on a fucking tight leash and DO NOT let him write anything.

 

[bonescraper]

No more Metal Gear. Please.

If Kojima isn't relegated to begging for money on Kickstarter in a year, put that man on a fucking tight leash and DO NOT let him write anything.

Then why would you need him at all?

 

[Ebonsword]

It's a stealth game; combat should be hard.

Except it's not a stealth game. Stealth is just one option.


And, if you want challenge, try to S rank every mission. The game is designed so that the missions can be completed relatively easily if you don't care about your score, but can be extremely brutal if you're trying to do a no kill/no alert completion.

 

[Hobo Elf]

You can easily get an S rank even if you alert the whole base 5 times and kill everyone. The most important factors for the grade ranking system is time and taking the least amount of hits. The only ranking system that matters in MGSV are the animal code names that you are awarded.

 

[KK1001]

The scoring system is utterly retarded. It's based mostly on how fast you do it, not on no kills/alerts.

 

[dunno lah]

So, are there any missions tougher than Ground Zeroes/Eliminate the Renegade Threat in "no kill, no alert, no weapons" challenge?

 

[KK1001]

Not really. And the fact that you can't pick and choose OSP/Extreme/No Kill/Full Stealth for each mission after you beat the game is a stupid decision.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

It is fairly impressive that Kojipro managed to pull a Raiden again this day and age when a leak is much harder to prevent. Played us like a damn fiddle.

As for Konami cutting important content, the only proper response is: START TALKING BITCH

It doesn't explain Big Boss' fall, unfortunately. I won't explain why to you because you probably wan't to avoid spoilers.

Well, the biggest problem in the Big Boss prequels has been that after MGS3 it's been cursed by Koch's Snowflake. End of MGS3 completely explains why he's the way he is in Metal Gear 1 & 2, everything inbetween is ultimately just adding more triangles inside the circle.