Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain

[J_C]

End of MGS3 completely explains why he's the way he is in Metal Gear 1 & 2,

But it doesn't. Big Boss is disappointed in the US, sure, but without PW and MGSV, his turn to the dark side is like Anakin Skywalker's fall in Revenge of the Sith.

 

[Hobo Elf]

But, like I said, MGSV doesn't show you that fall for Big Boss.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

MGSV is not really about Big Boss' fall, since he fell when he killed The Boss. That's the key moment when he chose to be a soldier instead of a man, left him bitter at the world, and which cost him his moral compass. That mission was also the catalyst why him and Zero left the world in such a fucked up state that Solid Snake had to go way above and beyond call of duty (lolpun) to unfuck it.

MGSV in terms of setting up Metal Gear 1 & 2 is really about Master Miller, and explaining a certain other thing. Big Boss has already fallen and this is just the last straw for Miller. Or should we say, the last musical instrument?

 

[Phage]

Trust us. It has almost literally nothing to do with Big Boss's fall. Also, in terms of Kaz (very minor spoiler):

Spoiler

it never explains how he regrows his arm and leg for MG2 lol

 

[Adon]

Trust us. It has almost literally nothing to do with Big Boss's fall. Also, in terms of Kaz (very minor spoiler):

Spoiler

it never explains how he regrows his arm and leg for MG2 lol

Spoiler

Parasites

 

[J_C]

But, like I said, MGSV doesn't show you that fall for Big Boss.

Trust us. It has almost literally nothing to do with Big Boss's fall. Also, in terms of Kaz (very minor spoiler):

Spoiler

it never explains how he regrows his arm and leg for MG2 lol

Ok, ok I get it.

But after looking PW, I don't think that these stories are not needed, they add some interesting storyarchs to the saga. Even if they don't precisely show how he turns evil.

 

[Phage]

Not gonna lie bros - I feel like if I had just youtubed the story after episode 31 I would've felt much better about the game. Somebody hold me

 

[dunno lah]

The way I see it now, the speech Big Boss gave in the Peace Walker ending cements his desire for Outer Heaven. The events in MGS5 show Big Boss as playing along with the Patriots right at the beginning, inadvertently becoming a manipulator a-la Zero (as opposed to after MGS5 which we at first assumed to have happened).

Spoiler

Having two Big Bosses still is contrived as hell regardless of Kojima's meta-narrative.

 

[KK1001]

Not gonna lie bros - I feel like if I had just youtubed the story after episode 31 I would've felt much better about the game. Somebody hold me

Not withstanding the issues I've raised, I feel like Chapter 1 is still pretty good on its own. If Chapter 2 had the same sort of format - 25 to 30 new missions, a couple new open world areas, say in South America or South Asia - it would have made these problems a lot less obvious.

The game is fucking half-baked and - even worse - half-finished.

 

[Phage]

THE TWIST

Should spoiler this comment since only like 4 of us in this thread have finished the game lol

 

[Alienman]

Big Medic

 

[Phage]

Big Medic

Spoiler

It's sad because not only were people saying "VENOM SNAKE ISNT BIG BOSS" after the E3 reveal in 2013, but they also said "THE MEDIC IS VENOM SNAKE, HE HAS KEIFER'S VOICE" after the PC version of Ground Zeroes had its models extracted. Then... it happened.

Also, starting to think that Mission 46 was just quickly slapped together to make an ending with the TWIST

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea it's not quite as succesful in troll twist as Raiden was (given that IIRC nobody had even the slightest clue until the moment we saw that intro video's very end), but back then most of us were still wondering where all the dinosaurs went all of a sudden.

 

[Phage]

Yea it's not quite as succesful in troll twist as Raiden was (given that IIRC nobody had even the slightest clue until the moment we saw that intro video's very end), but back then most of us were still wondering where all the dinosaurs went all of a sudden.

I actually like Raiden a lot. Yeah, he's whiny, slips on bird poop, and everyone dumps on him; but that's the point - he's some dumb nerd that played 3000 missions in VR (video games) and thinks he's hot shit, but actually isn't. He's blatantly meant to be the player, someone who comes off of MGS1 feeling like a spy - to the extent that in the original design doc for MGS2, his alternate name is "thyself".

And, in relation to MGSV

Spoiler

the Raiden twist didn't effectively render the entire game's plot pointless. Since we were playing as Venom Snake, we no longer did anything that matters within the current timeline. We didn't inadvertently found Outer Heaven, we didn't witness Naked Snake's final decline into madness (well, we kind of see Kaz go down that route) - we didn't create any links between the games, other than Hal's father being a surprisingly well-written douchebag.

We just got, uh, some tape recording that says "WE ARE BIG BOSS!!! EVERYONE IS!!!" then you punch a mirror.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I like Raiden too, and I didn't even find him that whiny or anything to that effect. His meta-function in MGS2 is also superb and all-time great use of vidya gaem as a medium, since as you said he starts the game as a player expy and eventually ends up being given the freedom to be his own person in spite of whatever might be around him. MGS2 revolved entirely on Raiden being an expy for the player and Snake telling them to be be themselves and living a real life (similar to how MGS1 actively accused you of not killing people because there was no choice but because you enjoyed it, and Mantis alluding to usual player sadism too).

A good example is Raiden's reaction whenever Snake is accused of being a terrorist, since it's the reaction you as a player who presumably played MGS1 is going to have because you so tenaciously identify with Snake because of the ingrained concept of player avatar (heck, it's really funny to think how easily this was verified in my own experience back when the game first came out and I played it).

Spoiler

Anyway.

In a way I hope they wouldn't do the missing chapter if they finish the way it's now, since it just really isn't the same if you're Big Boss' doppelganger and go face the young Liquid, not to mention Liquid certainly should have realized Big Boss' plot with Big Medic by this point; the confrontation is meaningless if it isn't the real Big Boss and Liquid, and even then it'd be kind of silly because a big thing for Liquid was that he never got the chance to exact revenge on his father.

This ties into what I mentioned before, the Big Boss prequels are heavily cursed by Koch's Snowflake: The pivotal moment in the past has already happened, and we know the pivotal moment in the future. We're witnessing a story we already know the ending for, and the catalyst for that ending. It's just filling in gaps inbetween that don't really need filling. Witnessing the nittygritty of the conflict between Zero and Big Boss is ultimately a lot less interesting than hearing its overview distilled in MGS4. I don't really find the spiral to evil Big Boss facesvery interesting material, since the seed of it was so perfectly positioned in MGS3, the character arc between MGS3 and MG1-2 is so natural.

Just more triangles within a circle.

But MGSV is just so much joy to play that I don't mind its doomed-at-conception position in the saga in terms of the story it can tell.

 

[Alienman]

Man...

Spoiler

The twist just made everything feel totally pointless. It's like this game was made, costing several millions just to retcon a Nintendo 8-bit game...

Having a hard time getting immersed in the game after that shitty ending / plot

 

[sexbad?]

Press ESC to skip cutscenes

 

[KK1001]

People hate Skullface but I actually liked his plan, bullshit parasites aside.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Man...

Spoiler

The twist just made everything feel totally pointless. It's like this game was made, costing several millions just to retcon a Nintendo 8-bit game...

Having a hard time getting immersed in the game after that shitty ending / plot

Spoiler

I swear, the twist was made primarily because at this point the entire internet is conditioned to know how to react.

 

[Karwelas]

Woah eoah. I was thinking about something.

Spoilers!

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, at the end of Mgs 4 Big Boss told Snake that it was his body in outer heaven, when we burned him in Mgs 2. But there is Venom Snake. So he Fucking lied do us? He wasn't locked down by patriots?

 

[Hobo Elf]

Woah eoah. I was thinking about something.

Spoilers!

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, at the end of Mgs 4 Big Boss told Snake that it was his body in outer heaven, when we burned him in Mgs 2. But there is Venom Snake. So he Fucking lied do us? He wasn't locked down by patriots?

Spoiler

No, now it's canonical that Solid Snake kills both Medic Snake and Big Boss. In MG1 you kill Medic Snake and in MG2 you kill the legit Big Boss. Big Boss is still a bitch who gets taken down by a rookie soldier using a lighter and aerosol.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I don't think you could call Solid Snake a rookie during Zanzibar Land tho, since he'd already survived Outer Heaven prior to that.

Woah eoah. I was thinking about something.

Spoilers!

Spoiler

If I remember correctly, at the end of Mgs 4 Big Boss told Snake that it was his body in outer heaven, when we burned him in Mgs 2. But there is Venom Snake. So he Fucking lied do us? He wasn't locked down by patriots?

Spoiler

Nah, Venom is the one killed at Outer Heaven. Big Boss was burned almost to death in Zanzibar Land.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Ok, ok. I just had a thought about the characters in MGSV and here are some things I thought about concerning them and Solid Snake:

Spoiler

Skull Face was taken away from him family and went through many different families in his childhood. This must've messed him up a bit since he never had any "real" family anymore. Just lots of different people and most of them were army people teaching him the tricks of their trade. This might mirror Solid Snake as he had a similar upgringing. A child born in a lab to no real parents, he went through several families during his childhood.

Venom Snake learning that he isn't who he thinks he is and he didn't take it very well. It's not show in game, but it's pretty obvious that this causes him to eventually become very bitter at Big Boss to the point where he is a real threat and forces Big Boss to orchestrate the events of MG1 where Solid Snake goes and kills Venom. Again this might mirror Solid Snake as he himself also learns that he is only a clone of Big Boss.

Eli/Liquid is self explanatory with what I'm getting at.

Big Boss, we all know his history and it needs no explaining, but it's pretty clear that his story is quite a similar one to a certain other characters.

Solid Snake on the other hand is able to put all the bad shit in his life behind him and become the bigger man, become a hero, unlike all the other characters who are shown to come from similar backgrounds and share similar situations as he but instead of rising above it all they decide to not just fall but dive head first into their own insanity. They become hopeless monsters that cannot do anything else but lash out angrily at the world. What do you guys think?

 

[Phage]

Ok, ok. I just had a thought about the characters in MGSV and here are some things I thought about concerning them and Solid Snake:

Spoiler

Skull Face was taken away from him family and went through many different families in his childhood. This must've messed him up a bit since he never had any "real" family anymore. Just lots of different people and most of them were army people teaching him the tricks of their trade. This might mirror Solid Snake as he had a similar upgringing. A child born in a lab to no real parents, he went through several families during his childhood.

Venom Snake learning that he isn't who he thinks he is and he didn't take it very well. It's not show in game, but it's pretty obvious that this causes him to eventually become very bitter at Big Boss to the point where he is a real threat and forces Big Boss to orchestrate the events of MG1 where Solid Snake goes and kills Venom. Again this might mirror Solid Snake as he himself also learns that he is only a clone of Big Boss.

Eli/Liquid is self explanatory with what I'm getting at.

Big Boss, we all know his history and it needs no explaining, but it's pretty clear that his story is quite a similar one to a certain other characters.

Solid Snake on the other hand is able to put all the bad shit in his life behind him and become the bigger man, become a hero, unlike all the other characters who are shown to come from similar backgrounds and share similar situations as he but instead of rising above it all they decide to not just fall but dive head first into their own insanity. They become hopeless monsters that cannot do anything else but lash out angrily at the world. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I agree. I mean, as a whole picture, what happens in MGSV isn't necessarily the worst, and:

Spoiler

one of the primary themes of MGS1/2 was genetics vs memes in terms of heritage - this is yet another jab at it (can some random medic who has comparable training to Big Boss be convinced he is Big Boss? Is there really something special about BB, or can anyone with the motivation and support actually become that effective?)

It also explains why Big Medic doesn't speak much in the game - since he legitimately isn't Big Boss, he doesn't have the memories and opinions of BB. Of course, when we saw in the gameplay demo a while that you needed an interpreter to understand Russian, almost everyone immediately screamed "THAT ISNT BIG BOSS!".

Big Medic is also kind of a slab of meat that does whatever Kaz tells him to, which ties into how detached he always looks on the chopper (although the real BB looked this way in Ground Zeroes too)

That said, MGSV still feels like a wasted opportunity. If they were going to tie in MG1/2 and MGS1, they should've at least brought in more interesting characters like Campbell instead of Deus Ex little kid psycho mantis.

 

[KK1001]

I think there was a wasted opportunity to throw some interesting new bosses at us instead of recycling Volgin and Psycho Mantis.

The entire thing feels like an incomplete mess: cut content, broken game systems, half-assed attempts at cashing in on the build-a-base mobile game craze, tacked on features, a lazy imitation of today's AAA-follow-the-quest-marker open world nonsense,the lack of any boss fights, awkward as fuck cutscenes (I was literally laughing at the Jeep ride with Skull Face; how embarassing). The list goes on and on.

I would have loved to been a fly on the wall to watch the trainwreck that was this game's development.