Game News Might & Magic X Update: Travelling, Questing, Itemization and more

[Excidium]

Them being unequipable just makes identifying an additional chore/minor moneysink. Might as well cut identification altogether if you're going that route.

As I said above, that "chore" did have useful effects in terms of pacing and sense of reward.

Which is a bullshit excuse, as I said above.

"Pacing and sense of reward" You sound like Josh Sawyer with your vague game design lingo

 

[Broseph]

Them being unequipable just makes identifying an additional chore/minor moneysink. Might as well cut identification altogether if you're going that route.

As I said above, that "chore" did have useful effects in terms of pacing and sense of reward.

Which is a bullshit excuse, as I said above.

"Pacing and sense of reward" You sound like Josh Sawyer with your vague game design lingo

As if that's a bad thing

 

[Excidium]

What?

 

[Nael]

Them being unequipable just makes identifying an additional chore/minor moneysink. Might as well cut identification altogether if you're going that route.

As I said above, that "chore" did have useful effects in terms of pacing and sense of reward.

Which is a bullshit excuse, as I said above.

"Pacing and sense of reward" You sound like Josh Sawyer with your vague game design lingo

And you sound like a whiny bitch. It's like everything is a bag of herpes ridden dicks with you!

 

[Berekän]

He's right tho, saying it's meant to give you "pacing and a sense of reward" just because it drags you to the town it's stupid, I already got my fucking reward when I completed the dungeon and got my hands on the sword, I don't need to get to town to feel accomplished.

Just put a shitload of curses, obscure the effects of the item on your stats and let the player decide if he's willing to risk using that item without identifying it or not, and no, saying that it leads to savescumming is a fucking lazy excuse.

 

[evdk]

And you sound like a whiny bitch. It's like everything is a bag of herpes ridden dicks with you!

What the fuck? Being against game streamlining in the name of nebulous, generally unprovable design concepts is a valid position.

"Popping moles from behind cover is a good design decision because it allows for more easily achievable tactical gameplay."

 

[Infinitron]

Not being able to use an item is streamlining now? That's more restrictions, not less.

I'm just saying, in terms of design, there are advantages in forcing the player to return to town to reap the rewards of the dungeon. And yes, design includes "nebulous" concepts such as pacing.

Excidium is just looking at the disadvantages and brushing off the advantages as insignificant.

 

[Serious_Business]

It is pure . Not only decline of it as a Might and Magic title but as an RPG in general

Go take a breather son, your video games are going to be there when you come back

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

let the player decide if he's willing to risk using that item without identifying it or not, and no, saying that it leads to savescumming is a fucking lazy excuse.

It depends; putting on a codpiece of -10 dexterity is going to make you reload 9/10 times. It's just not that much fun to have your build kneecapped like that. As long as cursed items have interesting tradeoffs the savescum argument doesn't apply.

 

[Excidium]

Not being able to use an item is streamlining now? That's more restrictions, not less.

I'm just saying, in terms of design, there are advantages in forcing the player to return to town to reap the rewards of the dungeon. And yes, design includes "nebulous" concepts such as pacing.

Excidium is just looking at the disadvantages and brushing off the advantages as insignificant.

There is no advantage to this system over a good one in those sawyerisms. You return to town to trade your loot, train (oops xD) and restock consumables, identifying items is merely an aspect of the first. On the other hand, the added risk of equipping something you have no idea what does certainly adds something but somehow cheating invalidates some designs.

 

[evdk]

Not being able to use an item is streamlining now? That's more restrictions, not less.

Or you could should say it's less options.

I'm just saying, in terms of design, there are advantages in forcing the player to return to town to reap the rewards of the dungeon. And yes, design includes "nebulous" concepts such as pacing.

Excidium is just looking at the disadvantages and brushing off the advantages as insignificant.

You reap rewards of a dungeon by killing and looting everything, return to town optional. In fact it's more fun (nebulous concepts ahoy) that way - why would you need to actually return to your base to somehow make exploration more appealing is beyond me.

 

[Infinitron]

There is no advantage to this system over a good one. You return to town to trade your loot, train (oops xD) and restock consumables, identifying items is merely an aspect of the first.

Yes there are. How about durability? Item durability is an important element in this game. Being able to freely switch from your broken item to a new unidentified item you found in the dungeon might disturb that. You're supposed to go back to town to repair your stuff.

In general, there's nothing wrong with a game being designed such that you can only "take stock" of new items between dungeoneering sessions. In fact, Might & Magic already embraces that concept for level ups, so doing it with item identification as well is quite natural.

 

[evdk]

There is no advantage to this system over a good one. You return to town to trade your loot, train (oops xD) and restock consumables, identifying items is merely an aspect of the first.

Yes there are. How about durability? Item durability is an important element in this game. Being able to freely switch from your broken item to a new unidentified item you found in the dungeon might disturb that. You're supposed to go back to town to repair your stuff.

You mean being able to freely switch your broken weapon for a possibly cursed unidentified one.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

How about durability? Item durability is an important element in this game. Being able to freely switch from your broken item to a new unidentified item you found in the dungeon might disturb that.

Think for a second about that reasoning: the mechanic for breaking items would be jeopardized by being able to use non-broken items you find. That just doesn't make any sense chief.

 

[Berekän]

Not being able to use an item is streamlining now? That's more restrictions, not less.

I'm just saying, in terms of design, there are advantages in forcing the player to return to town to reap the rewards of the dungeon. And yes, design includes "nebulous" concepts such as pacing.

There are better elements to establish the 'pacing', like the consumables your party needs not to starve on the wilds. Making the magic system less interesting shouldn't be countered by such a lame thing as the 'pacing'.

let the player decide if he's willing to risk using that item without identifying it or not, and no, saying that it leads to savescumming is a fucking lazy excuse.

It depends; putting on a codpiece of -10 dexterity is going to make you reload 9/10 times. It's just not that much fun to have your build kneecapped like that. As long as cursed items have interesting tradeoffs the savescum argument doesn't apply.

Well, there are many ways of designing around that that don't involve making unidentified items unequipable. Make it so the -10dexterity only applies while the object's worn, if you have it unidentified maybe you'll notice that you're suddenly dealing more damage but will fail to notice you're missing more hits. Obviously since you haven't identified the item, it shouldn't reflect on your stats window. Make a ironman mode so you can't resort to save-scumming. But taking rid of those risks alltogether just makes for a less interesting equipment system overall, rest assured, if I have to wait to get to town to identify all my items and equip them, what's the point of having cursed items? I won't be using none of them at all.

 

[Infinitron]

How about durability? Item durability is an important element in this game. Being able to freely switch from your broken item to a new unidentified item you found in the dungeon might disturb that.

Think for a second about that reasoning: the mechanic for breaking items would be jeopardized by being able to use non-broken items you find. That just doesn't make any sense chief.

Of course it does. Think outside your simulationist box, bro. You're supposed to use the non-broken items you brought with you from outside the dungeon. That's what the game wants you to do. That's how it's tuned and balanced.

Think of the dungeon as an "archeological dig", where you collect items and bring them back to the "university" for further study. You don't "take stock of"/formally acquire what you found in the dungeon until you get back to town. There is absolutely nothing inherently illegitimate about this sort of game design.

Again, why is it okay that you can't level up without a skill trainer in town, but not okay that you can't identify items without an item identifier in town?

 

[Excidium]

Will you keep ignoring the fact that equipping unidentified items is a risk/reward thing? Consider replying to evdk since you keep ignoring it when I say.

simulationist

How many posts did it take for spouting meaningless GNS theory terms? I should have counted.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Think of the dungeon as an "archeological dig", where you collect items and bring them back to the "university" for further study.

Except it's not, it's a friggin' dungeon where you're supposed to live out your Conan-ian power fantasies of breaking your axe over a baddies skull then picking up a cursed mallet of dinginess and wacking it over the head of some other guy sneaking up on you.

 

[Infinitron]

Will you keep ignoring the fact that equipping unidentified items is a risk/reward thing?

No, I'm not ignoring it. Yes, that is an advantage of being able to equip unidentified items and I don't deny it (although I do believe savescumming makes it largely unsuitable for CRPGs).

However, the system of not being able to equip identified items also has advantages. It is not inherently worse.

How many posts did it take for spouting meaningless GNS theory terms? I should have counted.

I didn't really want to, but I think Jim the Dinosaur considers it a compliment.

Except it's not, it's a friggin' dungeon where you're supposed to live out your Conan-ian power fantasies of breaking your axe over a baddies skull then picking up a cursed mallet of dinginess and wacking it over the head of some other guy sneaking up on you.

Sure, in some games. In others, perhaps not.

 

[Berekän]

Please, do tell about those advantages that aren't called pacing.

 

[Excidium]

However, the system of not being able to equip identified items also has advantages. It is not inherently worse.

But it is. The only "advantage" is that you HAVE to go back to town to identify your magical gear, the one I'm talking about gives you the option of waiting until you go back to town or risk equipping it to see what it does. One is clearly superior.

(although I do believe savescumming makes it largely unsuitable for CRPGs).

Cheating is now something worth taking into consideration.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

I didn't really want to, but I think Jim the Dinosaur considers it a compliment.

I do, but then why did you tell me to get out of my comfortable box

 

[Infinitron]

Cheating is now something worth taking into consideration.

Using save and restore is not cheating.

Please, do tell about those advantages that aren't called pacing.

You're in a dungeon. You've gathered piles of magical loot and you're now on your way out. Your party is all busted up, your equipment is close to broken.

Under one of these systems, you're now in absolutely no danger at all. Under the other one, you'd better be fucking careful of any monsters that may still be left.

Who's the streamliner now, baby?

 

[Excidium]

Cheating is now something worth taking into consideration.

Using save and restore is not cheating.

Yes it is when it's used for those ends.

Please, do tell about those advantages that aren't called pacing.

You're in a dungeon. You've gathered piles of magical loot and you're now on your way out. Your party is all busted up, your equipment is close to broken.

Under one of these systems, you're now in absolutely no danger at all. Under the other one, you'd better be fucking careful of any monsters that may still be left.

What? Gambling with unindentified items when you're all battered up poses no danger at all?

Who's the streamliner now, baby?

Probably the one defending a system that limits player agency.

 

[Berekän]

Cheating is now something worth taking into consideration.

Using save and restore is not cheating.

Then why are you so opposed to it?

Please, do tell about those advantages that aren't called pacing.

You're in a dungeon. You've gathered piles of magical loot and you're now on your way out. Your party is all busted up, your equipment is close to broken.

Under one of these systems, you're now in absolutely no danger at all. Under the other one, you'd better be fucking careful of any monsters that you left behind.

Who's the streamliner now, baby?

Except you still have the option to use any non-magic equipment you found on your way. Besides you're completely ignoring the fact that the system makes it riskier, you never know when a item you're going to use it's going to be cursed. I don't want to go to a dungeon, clear everything and come home with my bag of shiny magic items. I want to go to a dungeon, fall on a trap two levels below, get surrounded and find a fucking sword like none I've seen before, it looks great and menaces with spikes of awesomeness, then start considering the options, should I risk using this to help me get out of the dungeon or maybe it's cursed and using it is going to get me killed?