Munchkinism vs. RP

[Yosharian]

These "umm por que no los dos retard" replies are perplexing in response to a question that didn't propose incompatibility and in fact advocated for enjoying the compatibility...

Build optimization and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to decrease one to increase the other.

There are implicit limits before it becomes insincere. The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd. A good DM would call out meta-gaming and just flat out say that your character is too retarded to do something clever like that.
You also run into another metagaming problem where everyone just runs the same hyper-optimized cheese build, with every character mechanically being the same Gary Stu of RPG mechanics.

It's easy to pick the optimal moves; any idiot these days knows that stacking +1s to things is better. It's takes skill to pick the flawed ones and give them meaning to the story you're crafting.

> The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd.

That's called bad role-playing, it has nothing to do with powergaming.

> A good DM would call out meta-gaming and just flat out say that your character is too retarded to do something clever like that.

Yes, a good DM would call a player like that out on his... bad role-playing. What does this have to do with powergaming, again?

> It's [sic] takes skill to pick the flawed ones and give them meaning to the story you're crafting.

And there we go with the jerking off in people's faces again.

> everyone just runs the same hyper-optimized cheese build, with every character mechanically being the same Gary Stu of RPG mechanics

A good character isn't defined solely by the mechanics of their class, race, feats, etc. There's absolutely no reason that your Elf Evocation Wizard has to be the same character as mine.

 

[what am i doing]

The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd.

So is the idea that powergaming equals looking for bugs in the game to exploit. In PnP they're often considered the same thing, but that's not really relevant to a discussion about playstyle in vidya RPGs, especially since the style of exploit common in PnP is a lot more rare in vidya RPGs, even ones that are adaptations of PnP systems.

 

[Cael]

These "umm por que no los dos retard" replies are perplexing in response to a question that didn't propose incompatibility and in fact advocated for enjoying the compatibility...

Build optimization and roleplaying are not mutually exclusive, you don't have to decrease one to increase the other.

There are implicit limits before it becomes insincere. The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd. A good DM would call out meta-gaming and just flat out say that your character is too retarded to do something clever like that.
You also run into another metagaming problem where everyone just runs the same hyper-optimized cheese build, with every character mechanically being the same Gary Stu of RPG mechanics.

It's easy to pick the optimal moves; any idiot these days knows that stacking +1s to things is better. It's takes skill to pick the flawed ones and give them meaning to the story you're crafting.

This is retarded.

Whoever said the half-orc needs to be smart to figure out how to break the rules? He is just doing what he does, but better. The half-orc isn't going to think, "If I take X feat and combine it with Y skill, I would be able to do +50 damage." He will hit something until a hit is more effective and he will start doing that way until another minor deviation makes it even better.

The problem with dramafags is that they are all metagamers. Just take a look at the fuckers. They talk about feats and skills and points and how to deliberately give maluses to characters. They are not roleplayers. They are fucking rollplayers.

As for being gimped makes the character meaning, you are right, you asshole! It means the rest of the party has to carry your retarded ass when what they should be doing is throwing you over the side of a cliff for endangering the party.

 

[Yosharian]

Powergaming means picking Drow over Elf because Drow gets Spell Resistance, or something similar.

Role-playing is playing that Drow exceptionally well, as a character.

As you said, the two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Cael]

The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd.

So is the idea that powergaming equals looking for bugs in the game to exploit. In PnP they're often considered the same thing, but that's not really relevant to a discussion about playstyle in vidya RPGs, especially since the style of exploit common in PnP is a lot more rare in vidya RPGs, even ones that are adaptations of PnP systems.

No. That is munchkinism. Powergaming is making a half-orc barbarian instead of a pixie barbarian.

 

[PapaPetro]

If everyone is playing the same optimized wizard then there's no originality to it. "Oh but my 20 Int wizard has a lisp!". Still makes you a hackneyed player.
I don't see optimial powergaming as "creative", it's a solved solution to a mechanical problem that can be copied and pasted across multiple gaming instances.

 

[what am i doing]

The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd.

So is the idea that powergaming equals looking for bugs in the game to exploit. In PnP they're often considered the same thing, but that's not really relevant to a discussion about playstyle in vidya RPGs, especially since the style of exploit common in PnP is a lot more rare in vidya RPGs, even ones that are adaptations of PnP systems.

No. That is munchkinism. Powergaming is making a half-orc barbarian instead of a pixie barbarian.

In computer games we say exploits, rather than "munchkinism" (not sure what the rationale behind that term is) because you are exploiting a bug. It is in any case not relevant to build optimization and still offers no weight to the idea of making a good build being in some sort of opposition to roleplaying.

 

[Cael]

The idea that some Int dump stat half-orc is gonna find ways to break the in-game universe rules to do infinite damage is absurd.

So is the idea that powergaming equals looking for bugs in the game to exploit. In PnP they're often considered the same thing, but that's not really relevant to a discussion about playstyle in vidya RPGs, especially since the style of exploit common in PnP is a lot more rare in vidya RPGs, even ones that are adaptations of PnP systems.

No. That is munchkinism. Powergaming is making a half-orc barbarian instead of a pixie barbarian.

In computer games we say exploits, rather than "munchkinism" (not sure what the rationale behind that term is) because you are exploiting a bug. It is in any case not relevant to build optimization and still offers no weight to the idea of making a good build being in some sort of opposition to roleplaying.

A munchkin is a PnP term where a player basically cheats in order to make his character more powerful that it should be. It can be through deliberate misinterpretation of the rule, claiming bonuses where it shouldn't exist or even outright lying.

Dramafags are the opposite end of the spectrum. They are people who bend rules, logic and common sense to make their characters deliberately weaker in order to create what in their mind is drama, when all they are doing is creating a substandard character (e.g., the pixie barbarian) that the rest of the party and the DM has to take into account when meeting and designing challenges and encounters. You can always tell who is a dramafag when they start screaming about "powergamers" and lumping them in with munchkins. Bearing in mind that their idea of "powergaming" is a wizard with an Int above 10.

They are both banes of the PnP scene.

 

[laclongquan]

I walk the middleground.

I powergame all I can, until it bores me. IWD2 pounds hard into me this: to play game you just cant powergame/munchkin.

I roleplay, but only to a certain threshold. I dont play dwarf or little races. I rarely pick drow.

Yet I would pick a deepgnome to play ro4/fighterX, even if it's crippled somewhat, because I can use that build well. And make use of the -3 class malus. Mind you, if there's other class with high CL punishment same as DG I might not choose that little race.

I am thinking range(50,69) describe me well.

 

[PapaPetro]

Some CRPGs force you to powergame to progress the game. Pathfinder Kingmaker was pretty brutal if you gimped your chars (before they patched the difficulty).
Locks you out of doing hipster builds as you have to do what's meta to progress.

 

[RaptorRex888]

0 - I play everything on story mode.

 

[Tacgnol]

Middle ground mostly.

I tend to build characters to class fantasy parameters, so I'd never multiclass into something inappropriate for the character regardless of power.

That said, I always optimise within the classes I'm using.

 

[Morkar Left]

I think about in advance what kind of character I want to play and then pick classes and abilities which meets that kind of character. Then I try to maximize the effectiveness within these boundaries.
RP first, optimization second. But I prefer good and robust gamemechanics, choices and challenging fights (but not every fight has to be challenging).

 

[luj1]

About an 80. I would always like to have a build and pick choices that are relatively optimal, but I'm willing to spec into some things that aren't the best for the sake of ~fun!~.

That's pretty much exactly what I like to do.

 

[luj1]

These "umm por que no los dos retard" replies are perplexing in response to a question that didn't propose incompatibility and in fact advocated for enjoying the compatibility...

Poor reading comprehension was always a staple of the Codexian community.

 

[Max Damage]

I don't feel like muchkin/roleplayers distinction is applicable to half, if not more, video game RPGs. For example, how would you define those in Wizardry, Might&Magic or Legend of Grimrock series? What would be the distinction between minmaxer and roleplayer in RPGs where the subjective "opportunities for roleplaying" don't exist in first place? I wouldn'to call myself powergamer in RPGs, but at the same time I feel like that doesn't make me gravitate towards "roleplaying" because the connection between the two feels weak in context of c/jRPGs (ignoring the cases where picking bad builds makes you worse at playing role because character creation fails to explain/lies about viability of your choices).

 

[Drowed]

I'm at 50.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'm definitely not a powergamer. I mean, I don't ever equip boots on my female characters even though that deprives them one one potentially stat-boosting item

 

[pomenitul]

I'm in the 55-65 range.

 

[Turuko]

if roleplaying means gimpin your characters and only realize it later then i'm a 100% roleplayer

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think we need to define some of the terms here. Building a character based on roleplaying can either mean you are following a specific concept or that you are just following the logic of the system to reflect how you are imagining your character to be in a realistic way. On my last Icewind Dale 2, i refused to lower the INT of my warriors to 3. There's really no reason whatsoever not to do it except for that little voice in my head that tells me that character is now too stupid to even speak, which doesn't fit the concept i have of him at all. I mean sure, if you are playing on insane or HoF mode there's really no reason to care since the stats and their meaning were designed with core rules in mind, but i still can't do it.

Beyond that, however, i didn't purposedly tried to "gimp" my characters and i made them as powerful as i could without "braking" their concept, so to speak. Power gaming feeling cheap or distasteful also depends on how much of it is based on bad design or bugs. If you are avoiding picking a skill that would fit your character but wasn't implemented right (I.E., the initiative feat in Icewind Dale 2) i'm not going to care much since that's on the developers, not me. It's one thing to have skills that are more useful than others but bugs are another thing altogether.

Given that those are single players games BTW gimping really isn't an issue, since you can just see that as a way to alter the difficult of the game. Trying to make a sub-par skill work can be fun and interesting in its own way. Online games are a different beast in that respect. You can get away with using meme specs while leveling in WoW but if you are raiding fucking forget it.

Lastly, absolute roleplaying is actually to the detriment of the game, since if you are just picking things to fit a concept you are basically voiding all the tactical or strategic elements of the game and everything becomes about the "theme" that you got in your head, and whatever mechanics the game may have might as well not be there.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Can't help it.

 

[Ramnozack]

If I have a concept for a type of character I want to play, say some kind of martial character in Kingmaker modeled after a Khornate Chaos warrior, I'll go with some sub-optimal picks to make him a reality like going armored hulk barbarian for his class because it fits the best even though it is a sub-optimal class. But within that concept I'll try to make the most powerful character possible.

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'm definitely not a powergamer. I mean, I don't ever equip boots on my female characters even though that deprives them one one potentially stat-boosting item

Nothing to do with powergaming, you're just a feet fetishist ...

As for roleplaying, except for the most lunatics amongst us, that's something you do in PnP RPG, when you're in front of your screen, i don't believe you're dressing up talking to yourself (or maybe you do, i mean, you read the Codex, right ?)

Character creation choices are so depressing, most of the time, powergaming is the only fun thing to do.

Spoiler

It's even worse with recent "AAA" cRPg where everything is balanced, nothing overpowered, nothing underpowered, everyone has the same cooldown shit and the same exact number of skills and most of them do the same thing.

 

[HeroMarine]

when you're in front of you're screen, i don't believe you're dressing up talking to yourself (or maybe you do, i mean, you read the Codex, right ?)

Dress up? Talking to yourself? You have little imagination. When playing in front of a screen playing the role-playing is happening in your head, just like acting out the characters of a book. You do read books, right?