My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

[Vault Dweller]

The Pronouncement of Two Skies was when the Codex race fractured into the gith-indie and the kick-zerai.

After the People destroyed the popamole empire, Sensuki, a warrior-queen and leader of the rebellion, declared that the People would not rest until they had discovered and destroyed all remaining Decline in the multiverse; then, the People would be free to conquer all of the planes of existence and bring war to all other races. Many of the People’s hearts shared this goal. Vault Dweller argued that the People already knew freedom and should begin to mend the damage done to their race. He too expressed a goal that was in the hearts of many of the People. Still, Sensuki insisted that hers was the only path and that they would be “under the same sky” in the matter.

Vault Dweller then told Sensuki that there “cannot be two skies.” This became known as the Pronouncement of Two Skies, a declaration of war that splintered the People into the races of gith-indie and kick-zerai. Battle was waged in the General RPG Discussion board, and the gith-indie retreated to the Underrail thread while the kick-zerai withdrew to the chaos of the Pillars of Eternity subforum. The two races have remained enemies ever since.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

That's just incredibly stupid, and I thought the disposition system was the game's big C&C-hook. tuluse defend the system to me, or don't if you have something better to do.

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince people them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your reputation does not open additional lines in the dailogues. It influences the way some NPC react to you and some quest outcomes.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince people them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

Hmm, so dispositions aren't actually to be thought of as reputations, but sort of as learn by use Charisma sub-stats... way too gamey for me, but interesting I guess.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, my post wasn't actually in response to you. But what makes you think they would do that? It's not as if PoE took much inspiration from the most challenging fights in BG2.

I know they wouldn't do that, and probably couldn't do it anyway (license). The systems don't allow for encounters like in BG2 anyway because they're too shallow balanced.

The thing is, the encounter design is uninspired in PoE and on hard I can defeat 90% of fights (being generous here) by sending Eder forward, select all + autoattack. After building focus with two attacks or so I have my cipher cast a spell for teh lulz because I might as well. Of course, IE games were not different in that regard, select all+attack is a good old IWD stable, but at least you had to use long duration buffs/protection spells on your squishies. There are no long duration buffs in PoE of course.

Then, for all the shittalk about DnD by Sawyer I expected a bit more in terms of the character system for fighters etc. Compared to 2nd ed. fighters PoE fighters might be an improvement, compared to 3.5 it's actually a disappointment. In DnD I can knockdown, trip, grapple, disarm every round if I have the feat, here I have 2 knockdowns per encounter, no matter how long the encounter takes? Sure, you can pick up a few more active skills (at the expense of offensive or defensive capabilities) but compared to 3.5 fighters, especially factoring in options by multi-classing/taking prestige classes, it's quite the let-down. Same with other classes like Paladin. Improvement not detected.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In general though, if you lied to 9 men but were always honest with one guy, this guy would *say* that you're the most honest person you've ever met and would probably think that those 9 guys are making shit up.

Except that the reputation check wouldn't occur for the one guy you were honest to, but for npc's you haven't interacted with yet.

Highlighted the key word.

 

[Infinitron]

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince people them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

Hmm, so dispositions aren't actually to be thought of as reputations, but sort of as learn by use Charisma sub-stats... way too gamey for me, but interesting I guess.

Well, it can also be thought of as a kind of "situational reputation", but sure, if you want.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince people them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

You mean, they can read my true intentions by my tone of voice and facial ticks? People I met for the very first time that only have second-hand knowledge of me? That sounds stupid. When you're trying to deceive someone you'll be doing your best to sound honest/sincere anyway so what's the difference?

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

Well, it can also be thought of as a kind of "situational reputation", but sure, if you want.

Eh, only if you take this seriously:

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

"This guy sure lies a lot, but when he talks in this honest tone, he always tells the truth so I can trust him now"

 

[Infinitron]

You mean, they can read my true intentions by my tone of voice and facial ticks? People I met for the very first time that only have second-hand knowledge of me? That sounds stupid. When you're trying to deceive someone you'll be doing your best to sound honest anyway so what's the difference?

Does the Deceptive disposition come into effect when you're trying to deceive somebody about something, or when the other person already knows you're deceptive and reacts accordingly?

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Well, it can also be thought of as a kind of "situational reputation", but sure, if you want.

Eh, only if you take this seriously:

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

"This guy sure lies a lot, but when he talks in this honest tone, he always tells the truth so I can trust him now"

There are _no_ reputation checks in the dialogues. You build your reputation with dialogues and later people react to it (sometimes influencing quest outcomes).
This ain't Mass effect with lines opening because you're paragon or shit.

 

[hiver]

Well, you can get her to surrender or kill them all. In a quest to get the dragon egg there is also a party of adventures there to fight and you can make two or three leave by dialogue, so you have a much easier fight with the rest. Or not.

In Dryford Skaen quest you can:

- figure out that guy is lying or try to break into his room, you can find the hidden key or not depending on a skill (i think),
- go after his story and find the Ogre, and the other secret entry to the temple bellow, (i think there might be a disguise non-violent option there but didnt test),
- at the pool you can sacrifice a companion and gain a secret power for it, if you pay attention to the dialogue and dont fail in answers, or discover more about the plot with high lore and Int,
- decide to work for Skaen guy and move his plot forward,
- have different ways to push the dialogue into revealing details of the plot depending on lore, survival, int, and several class based specific ways, Skean priest included - and how exactly to approach it,
- Grieveing Mother has a option, or if you are a cipher
- you have several options on how to talk to the girl after and then several advices options on what to do,
- you have several options with her uncle upon returning,

i mean, thats not bad at all, however you turn it.

 

[Athelas]

Well, my post wasn't actually in response to you. But what makes you think they would do that? It's not as if PoE took much inspiration from the most challenging fights in BG2.

I know they wouldn't do that, and probably couldn't do it anyway (license). The systems don't allow for encounters like in BG2 anyway because they're too shallow balanced.

Now you're moving the goal posts, although your arguments are still as flawed as they were before. Your original premise was that the encounter design and itemization would automatically be fixed if the game was designed with the 3.5 ed. rule set. I pointed to NWN2, obviously disproving your point. Conversely, PoE's systems could allow for better encounter design and itemization than what's on display in the game.

Then, for all the shittalk about DnD by Sawyer I expected a bit more in terms of the character system for fighters etc. Compared to 2nd ed. fighters PoE fighters might be an improvement, compared to 3.5 it's actually a disappointment. In DnD I can knockdown, trip, grapple, disarm every round if I have the feat, here I have 2 knockdowns per encounter, no matter how long the encounter takes? Sure, you can pick up a few more active skills (at the expense of offensive or defensive capabilities) but compared to 3.5 fighters, especially factoring in options by multi-classing/taking prestige classes, it's quite the let-down. Same with other classes like Paladin. Improvement not detected.

This isn't a turn-based game. Fighters should be largely passive or at least there should be the option to build them as such. The same goes for the paladins. I think they struck a nice balance there (particularly with the paladin auras and some of the modal abilities), although I still think per-encounters are a bad idea.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

'This guy sure lies a lot, but when he talks in this honest tone, he always tells the truth so I can trust him now"

If the difference is that clear and easily spotted that would make me one terrible fucking liar.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

'This guy sure lies a lot, but when he talks in this honest tone, he always tells the truth so I can trust him now"

If the difference is that clear and easily spotted that would make me one terrible fucking liar.

Which was my point

 

[Bleed the Man]

That's just incredibly stupid, and I thought the disposition system was the game's big C&C-hook. tuluse defend the system to me, or don't if you have something better to do.

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince people them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your reputation does not open additional lines in the dailogues. It influences the way some NPC react to you and some quest outcomes.

I'm playing with dispossition off, but this is my understanding of the system.

 

[hiver]

If its influencing NPC reaction to you, then it does indirectly open or close dialoague options.

Also, for example, the blood pool in Skaen temple checks for your Cruelty and only offers you its deal if you have some.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

If its influencing NPC reaction to you, then it does indirectly open or close dialoague options.

Also, for example, the blood pool in Skaen temple checks for your Cruelty and only offers you its deal if you have some.

Well, yeah, but my point was that you can't actually choose between getting an 'honest' OR 'deceptive' line based on your reputation.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Funny thing is, I only see the apologists always bring out 'BUT IN THE IE GAMES' when something is criticised here.

You mean like the OP?

 

[hiver]

Even better, because nobody would really be exactly the same for every answer and situation.

Better if there are more choices, and a lot of those that count as smaller disposition markers arent tagged as such.

 

[SoupNazi]

Can you provide an actual example? I've never seen a dialogue like this in the game.

I wish I could but I don't have a save point or a screenshot. I don't know if that's a scripted encounter, but it's after the trial, when the flood goes down and the road to Tree Elms is accessible again - you walk down that pathway to the river and encounter a bunch of people. It's a female wizard, member of the Leaden Key, with a bunch of goons.

You get to talk to them and end up basically arguing that you'll beat them easily - and then the conversation gives you the two choices, I can't remember but it's either cruel/benevolent or honest/deceptive, and both lead to the same conclusion: the goons run away and the wizard is captured. One of those is higher than the other IIRC, like, you need just 2 points in cruel and 3 points of benevolent, but whichever you choose she is captured.

The only way to fight her I think is if you either just tell her right away that you'll fight, or if you follow a conversation thread and meet none of the checks.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but I feel like there is some confusion regarding personal reputation here, possibly because people are playing the game with dialogue tags off. Through the game you get reputation points for various traits through dialogue and actions. Later on, when you actually have some reputations, there are checks in the dialogue that most certainly unlock new dialogue options and paths.

 

[SoupNazi]

Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but I feel like there is some confusion regarding personal reputation here, possibly because people are playing the game with dialogue tags off. Through the game you get reputation points for various traits through dialogue and actions. Later on, when you actually have some reputations, there are checks in the dialogue that most certainly unlock new dialogue options and paths.

They open new dialogue options, yes, and when compared to simply having no reputation (or just not the ones that is used in that specific dialogue), even new paths.

What we're discussing here, and what is a problem, is the fact that you can be known for being both deceptive and honest (though I will say that Infinitron makes a good point in that regard), and the bigger problem is that two reputations that are very opposite can lead to the same outcome.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Your original premise was that the encounter design and itemization would automatically be fixed if the game was designed with the 3.5 ed. rule set. I pointed to NWN2, obviously disproving your point. Conversely, PoE's systems could allow for better encounter design than what's on display in the game.

So, when it comes to PoE of course not the systems are to blame for what's on display in the game, but regarding 3.5e we can just point at NWN2 and *obviously disprove* my point. Makes sense.
Of course, DnD doesn't *automatically* lead to well-made encounter design. By the way, I've never said that either. Here's what I actually said:

Would solve character system, itemization, encounter design (just look up the DMG if you can't design decent encounters yourself, worked for Pierre Begue)

Do you see the word "automatically?" No? Because it's not there. See the paranthesis after the words "encounter design?" It explains how encounter design could be improved by using DnD.
You see, were this game DnD, the designers could refer to this helpful tool (the DMG) for inspiration when it comes to crafting interesting and challenging encounters, whereas in this fresh new system, courtesy of Sawyer, they're left alone with their own incompetence. And it shows.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

Maybe I'm reading things wrong, but I feel like there is some confusion regarding personal reputation here, possibly because people are playing the game with dialogue tags off. Through the game you get reputation points for various traits through dialogue and actions. Later on, when you actually have some reputations, there are checks in the dialogue that most certainly unlock new dialogue options and paths.

TBQH, I can't think of any example from the game from the top of my head. I've never seen a line locked because 'reputation requirement was not met'.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The reputation system is a neat idea, one of the few good ones in the game to be sure, but it suffers a lot due to the overall bad game design. It barely ever does anything else than make you avoid a fight, and given how most of said fights are accomplished after 5 seconds of select all -> left click and don't carry over any actual consequences/importance, the neat idea behind the reputations is almost thoroughly wasted.