Mystic Land: The Search for Maphaldo - Old school RPG inspired by W7 and EoB

[mediocrepoet]

In tabletop games, having very abstract rules can work very well...

Computer games, on the other hand, don't have this ability, however.

Big bullshit. A bunch of Goldbox era hits such as Wasteland 1, Dark Sun and Wizardry 6 feature abstract design

But they don't have abstract rules that require fleshing out like Over the Edge tabletop or Mage: The Ascension.

 

[luj1]

So how would a "less abstract" Hide skill make the game more of an RPG?

 

[Alex]

In tabletop games, having very abstract rules can work very well...

Computer games, on the other hand, don't have this ability, however.

Big bullshit. A bunch of Goldbox era hits such as Wasteland 1, Dark Sun and Wizardry 6 feature abstract design

My argument isn't that you shouldn't do abstractions, in fact that is impossible. My argument is that you should avoid making things so abstract they muddle the meaning of the abstraction. Hit points in D&D are a good example of that because you can't give a good meaning to those numbers. I further argue that making things more concrete is a way to make a game more of an RPG.

Here is a question for you, what exactly would you say "Wizardry games" level of abstraction should be? You claim these games thrive on this, but I assume you wouldn't like a game that was as abstract as Chess, for instance. So what exactly are the balancing factors here?

 

[luj1]

Here is a question for you, what exactly would you say "Wizardry games" level of abstraction should be?

The one it already is, works perfect

You claim these games thrive on this, but I assume you wouldn't like a game that was as abstract as Chess, for instance.

I don't know what this has to do with anything. I in fact do play chess and hold it in high regard

 

[mediocrepoet]

So how would a "less abstract" Hide skill make the game more of an RPG?

Ask him if that was his intention. I think you're taking his argument in weird directions to suit whatever bizarro agenda you have.

I basically took two main points out of it (was skimming what he wrote, so what it means for this game or Wiz, I'm not sure):

1. D&D had attribute ranges that meant something in real world terms, basically from crippled to Olympian, for human ranges, and then above into the territory of Gods and superhuman beings.
   In JRPGs, you have an attack stat that could mean you do 9999 damage with some mega hammer you swing around effortlessly, but your character looks like an 8 year old girl. What does that represent? Physical strength? Nothing? It's become abstract to the point of nonsense, it depicts nothing and bears no relationship with any sort of reality or interpretation. It's purely gamey.
2. Some tabletop games have abstracted rules where you need a whole lot of interactions and filling in to determine what it is. For instance, Over the Edge has general categories of stat/skills that you can define a few of to define your character. They are not predefined. You say I want to be good at these things and bad at these things and depending on how broad or narrow they are, they're assigned a die range. You cannot do this in a CRPG.

 

[Alex]

So how would a "less abstract" Hide skill make the game more of an RPG?

In this specific case, it would (hopefully) help make the battles seem less of an abstract game and more like a fight where the thief is trying to sneak around in order to attack the enemy without being seen.

Another example of how this could be made less abstract would be to give the player a text description of what happened with several variations for different areas and monsters. For instance, a fight in a dark cave could describe the character throwing a rock to create a distraction noise and then hidin behind a stalagmite. Then, during the attack he could drop from an elevation sticking his dagger on his target.

Note that being more of an RPG can be a bad deal. For instance, making a game too much if a simulation can make playing it tedious or overly complicated. It could make badly affect the gameplay. All of that does have to be considered, but other things being equal, you want your game to have an internal logic as developed as possible.

 

[luj1]

Another example of how this could be made less abstract would be to give the player a text description of what happened

I see what you mean now but this is already the standard ('Luj1 swings a scimitar ferociously' etc.)

If you meant going more in depth than that, I applaud, but it might be too much work (to do that for every environment like you suggested)

 

[luj1]

So how would a "less abstract" Hide skill make the game more of an RPG?

[nothingburger post]

gj

 

[mediocrepoet]

So how would a "less abstract" Hide skill make the game more of an RPG?

In this specific case, it would (hopefully) help make the battles seem less of an abstract game and more like a fight where the thief is trying to sneak around in order to attack the enemy without being seen.

Another example of how this could be made less abstract would be to give the player a text description of what happened with several variations for different areas and monsters. For instance, a fight in a dark cave could describe the character throwing a rock to create a distraction noise and then hidin behind a stalagmite. Then, during the attack he could drop from an elevation sticking his dagger on his target.

Note that being more of an RPG can be a bad deal. For instance, making a game too much if a simulation can make playing it tedious or overly complicated. It could make badly affect the gameplay. All of that does have to be considered, but other things being equal, you want your game to have an internal logic as developed as possible.

This is basically why I prefer grid based games like Gold Box over Blobbers. Blobbers are one step too abstracted for me. I don't mind it as much now as when I was younger, but it really bothered me then. Something like Bard's Tale filled it in a bit by having different ranges an encounter could start at and either having your party advance or even just have your thief repeatedly sneaking up to close the distance.

 

[Lady Error]

Blobbers have just enough abstraction and (hopefully) atmospheric graphics to create immersion by engaging the player's imagination to "fill in the gaps". There is nothing else quite like it, maybe good books or CYOA games come close.

For me, the grid graphics in Wizardry 1-5 do not work this way, because the graphics are too abstract. While of course most modern games try to be as detailed or even photorealistic as possible, leaving nothing or not much to imagination.

This is like a lost art that just a few developers "get", Cleve being one of them:

Too much realism and no abstraction, the player accepts that the game is going to replace his imagination and dream state with their own graphics and atmosphere. Turns out, computer games are decades away if ever from doing that as well as great RPGs have been doing it for years. The CGI is no replacement for your own internal dream state.

The most desirable result of immersion in the game is not the adrenalin of a casual game but the low theta wave stimulation which is identical to dreaming but with your eyes open. This won't happen in multiplayer modes and it won't happen for games that do too much to the visuals themselves. What is best is suggestion and the best feeling is hypnotic. When I play Wiz 7 or EOB 2 I lose track of time and become so engaged I forget to go to the bathroom. The world begins to seem realer to me than the real world while playing it. I don't think VR can beat this ... yet.

Blobbers are the highest form of RPG, nothing exceeds them for immersion. Other RPG genres can be fun but they lack the true monacle of the well done blobber.

 

[Damned Registrations]

It's become abstract to the point of nonsense, it depicts nothing and bears no relationship with any sort of reality or interpretation. It's purely gamey.

I think this generally applies to even fairly simulationist systems as well. The idea that you're killing something the size of a barn by stabbing it's toenails repeatedly is nonsense as well. You have to abstract it to the point that your character is doing some Legolas shit to stab them in the brain or getting them to punch themselves in the nuts, at which point physical strength and physics are fairly irrelevant. You get equally ridiculous scenarios out of combat regarding things like doors and chests you can't force open, walls you can't climb over, and arch sorcerors too stupid to float 8 feet off the ground where Conan can't hit him any more.

It's all so abstract to me anyways, I'm just as happy with an excel sheet and battle report as I am with a real time tactical map nine times out of ten. If I was just going to do some braindead shit like put warriors in front and wizards in the back anyways, I'd rather skip the tedious movement animations and just have blobber combat instead.

 

[Darkozric]

SirBlabsAlot How's the Bard, is he similar to wiz? Bards usually are good until mid game and then become useless, which I despise.

Since you're not implementing class change, how will this fare? Playing the lute and casting sleep over and over again like an autist or did you experiment with him for something more creative?

 

[SirBlabsAlot]

SirBlabsAlot How's the Bard, is he similar to wiz? Bards usually are good until mid game and then become useless, which I despise.

Since you're not implementing class change, how will this fare? Playing the lute and casting sleep over and over again like an autist or did you experiment with him for something more creative?

Directly from the manual (still work in progress of course):
==
The golden voice of any party. But bards are not only useful for party entertainment. Not at all! They can also learn songs that confuse or even harm their foes. Just make sure they have the right musical equipment and they will prove a worthy addition to the party. Bards can also be trained to become good scouts and they can master the art of map making as well.
==

We will add a LOT more different instruments into the world for Bards to use.
Some of them deliver quite powerful things (especially if your Bard learns the "Ancient music" skill and not just the regular "Music" skill)

Also useful for either Map mapping/Artifacts or Mythology study, or to study scouting (scouting WILL be made quite important - you will need one good scout if you are to have any hope in finding quite a few optional and easter egg areas ).

 

[Darkozric]

SirBlabsAlot Sounds that you gave them the love that they deserve.

Also "Ancient music"

 

[Abu Antar]

When I think samurai, I don't think stealthy character.

The jester could work. One can at least imagine that he hides out of cowardice.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The jester could work. One can at least imagine that he hides out of cowardice.

Guy can only hide if he's wearing purple

 

[SirBlabsAlot]

We removed "Hid-Un-Chet" from both, the Jester and the Samurai.
Good points were written above and we decided to go with what you guys proposed.

 

[Lady Error]

How about ancient musical instruments or infernal musical instruments that maybe come with some side-effects or curses, but also powerful effects?

 

[Abu Antar]

For the jester, he should have some ability that has a chance to make enemies laugh uncontrollably for one turn/round, by acting like.. well, a jester. Monsters/ghosts/constructs could be immune, but not humanoids. Just an idea. Or some distraction move.

Ninja could have some ability like throw sand (or some other fitting class), that blinds opponents.

Diversity in classes is always fun.

 

[SirBlabsAlot]

For the jester, he should have some ability that has a chance to make enemies laugh uncontrollably for one turn/round, by acting like.. well, a jester. Monsters/ghosts/constructs could be immune, but not humanoids. Just an idea. Or some distraction move.

Ninja could have some ability like throw sand (or some other fitting class), that blinds opponents.

Diversity in classes is always fun.

Jester has a Wardance ability that results in, well, interesting effects

 

[Alex]

(...) or infernal musical instruments that maybe come with some side-effects (...)

I believe those would require the "damned newfangled music" skill.

 

[Darkozric]

Jesters are interesting, imagine a jester whispering to the King's ear, plotting, being up to no good. Being deceptive to npcs giving them useful info, or biding them to do their will.

They could also play with their cards or do "magic" tricks to distract humanoids.

Being capable to tap in to assassination tactics is not a bad idea either, not to cause direct huge damage with knifes/swords but with insidious ways (poison food, hallucination/laughing/poison darts)
Then again you're messing with other classes which is not desired, but from a jester's role play perspective it's a valid option.

 

[luj1]

Jester is a combat powerhouse in some blobbers

 

[Lady Error]

Jester is a combat powerhouse in some blobbers

It's the ultimate, most difficult to get class in Grimoire:


Jester - The Jester is no laughing matter, often sending foes to death with a smile.

Basically a more deadly Bard with unique skills, as well as Thief skills. Though since class changes are not possible, I guess each class should have its own strengths, instead of the Jester being both Bard and Thief at the same time. There would be no point getting those classes then.

 

[Casual Hero]

The Jester in DQ 3 is the only character that can class-change into the Sage (the only character that can cast all schools of magic).