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Need Fallout 1 help.

Vibalist

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
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I'm currently in the Master's vault, at the third level. I read somewhere that you can activate a nuclear bomb if you ride the elevator down to level four, but the door in front of the elevator is locked and my lockpicking skill is only at about 25%.
Is there any other way down there?
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Electronic lockpick? If I remember correctly there's more than 1 door you have to lockpick. There will be at least one other after you use the elevator.

If you can't, well I guess you should have put more into lockpick. :roll:
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Oh yeah, and I think you need science too to fiddle with the bomb. Not sure, though.
 

Vibalist

Arcane
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Jul 21, 2008
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Location
Denmark
The electronic lockpick just works no matter your lockpicking skill or what? Where do I get one?
 

kmonster

Augur
Joined
May 24, 2010
Messages
316
I think you need at least 57 skill + electronic lockpicks.

You can find a set of electronic lockpicks in the upper levels of the cathedral.
 

Vibalist

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
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Fuck. That sucks. After pumping my science skill up to about 100 I was hoping I could've just waltzed in and set the bomb off.

Science really is utterly useless in this game, isn't it? I've only used it once where it truly made a difference (blowing Mariposa base up). Otherwise it's just used to get rather pointless info from random computers.

Well then. If there's absolutely no other way to get down to level four then I guess I'll just have to take that dumbass Master out with my rocket launcher.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
7,269
God that sucks. You didn't build your character correctly, and now you can't take your preferred method down to finish the game. Major design flaw, there. You should be able to complete the game no matter how you like no matter what your character build is.
 

Vibalist

Arcane
Joined
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Denmark
Uh oh. Looks like I've attracted the howlers.

God that sucks. You didn't build your character correctly and now you can't take your preferred method down to finish the game.

The keyword here is correctly, seeing as Fallout is a game where some builds clearly are superior to others. This is not good design and never will be.

Major design flaw, there.

Indeed it is, buddy.

You should be able to complete the game no matter how you like no matter what your character build is.

Maybe not. But what is the bloody point of tagging both repair and science when you only get to use those skills once or twice during the whole game? Why do people here like playing a game where some builds only have drawbacks?

I'm not really complaining that my lousy lockpicking wont get me past the door, I'm merely wondering why anyone thinks it's good design to have a game punish the player for a particular character build, rather than making sure every build has advantages and disadvantages in equal measure.

How hard would it have been to implement another route into the Nuclear Bomb room, one that required a character with a high science skill to hack a terminal or let a high speech character talk his way past a guard? The science skill that I could've put to use in order to avoid killing the Master directly is now more or less useless because of another skill that has nothing to do with it.

I'm sorry, but this is, like Skyway would say, shit.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Uh... yes?

Notice the "how you like" part.

You are still able to finish the game. Just not the way you'd like it. And as I said, most likely you need science to activate the bomb.

As to why you can't bypass the door any other way... well, don't know... maybe they didn't thought of it, maybe they didn't have time to do it, maybe they wanted it to make it difficult, maybe because some things just don't have alternatives... fuck knows. There's already three alternatives to finish The Master each requiring a different set of skills, maybe alternatives to alternatives is a bit too much to ask even from Fallout.

It's because people like you that game developers are replacing skills with minigames.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
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I'm not really complaining that my lousy lockpicking wont get me past the door, I'm merely wondering why anyone thinks it's good design to have a game punish the player for a particular character build, rather than making sure every build has advantages and disadvantages in equal measure.

So yeah, basically you want to be able to play the game however you want without any regard to the skills you picked. Sorry, but thems the breaks. Games are supposed to punish you for stupid decisions (be they on the character screen or otherwise), and whining because you made one, yet can still finish the game, is pretty ... umm... retarded?

The game does allow various paths to finish the game, and each path relies on a certain set of skills. However, even without those skills, it's still possible to finish the game, although those lovely "alternate paths" aren't available to you. Makes sense to me. Quit being a faggot.
 

Xor

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Jan 21, 2008
Messages
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This is exactly the kind of trolling that I miss.
 

4too

Arcane
Joined
May 20, 2004
Messages
288
How High Are You?

How High Are You?




If you boosted your Science while at the Brotherhood school, did you, or did you not discuss FEV with the Super Scribe?

Is your Speech high enough to get more dialogue lines then you ever wanted to sort through?


Are you high enough on Nerd Rage to go all Diplomat on da Masta'?


Jus' askin'.







4too
 

Vibalist

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Location
Denmark
FeelTheRads said:
Uh... yes?

Notice the "how you like" part.

You are still able to finish the game. Just not the way you'd like it.

True enough. But my character is not exactly great in the combat department, so going toe to toe with The Master would be difficult.

And as I said, most likely you need science to activate the bomb.

Yup.

As to why you can't bypass the door any other way... well, don't know... maybe they didn't thought of it, maybe they didn't have time to do it, maybe they wanted it to make it difficult, maybe because some things just don't have alternatives... fuck knows. There's already three alternatives to finish The Master each requiring a different set of skills, maybe alternatives to alternatives is a bit too much to ask even from Fallout.

I guess you're right. I think it was mostly my initial expectation of being able to finish off the Master with my leet science skills that were let down a bit when I realised lockpicking was the actual skill I needed.

This doesn't, however, change the fact that Science and Repair are mostly useless. I encountered one place in the whole game where Repair was more than marginally useful, ditto with Science.


So yeah, basically you want to be able to play the game however you want without any regard to the skills you picked.

No. What I want is for the skills I picked to be more than just marginally useful. I don't think it's fun when some skills are clearly just superior to others.

Sorry, but thems the breaks. Games are supposed to punish you for stupid decisions

How is it a stupid decision to not tag lockpick, in favor of repair or science? Suppose that I know nothing about the game before playing it. Do you reckon, then, that lockpicking would immediately be the skill that sprung to my mind when I pondered which of them would be the most useful?

A game should punish players for dumb decisions, true. But not tagging lockpicking is not a dumb decision, it's a character choice. One that ended up haunting me because lockpicking or speech clearly are superior to what I chose. And I don't mean just in this case either. Like I said earlier, I used Science once in the whole game. Lockpicking and speech have more than a few occassions where they're very handy.

and whining because you made one, yet can still finish the game, is pretty ... umm... retarded?

Well, after thinking it through I agree I have no business complaining that I can't get through the door with my low lockpicking skill. You and FeelTheRads are both right about that. What I find limiting about Fallout, however, is that my lack of lockpicking also prevents me from putting my science and repair skills to any use in this case. I feel like I have a character who's geared towards finding technical solutions to a problem (in this case setting off a bomb), yet the game doesn't give me enough opportunities to do this. In this case because I didn't tag another skill which has nothing to do with Repair or Science.

The game does allow various paths to finish the game, and each path relies on a certain set of skills. However, even without those skills, it's still possible to finish the game, although those lovely "alternate paths" aren't available to you. Makes sense to me.

Sure, it makes sense. I would argue, however, that it's still poor game design when one of the only moments in the game where you can achieve your goal with science is also dependent on whether you have good lockpicking.
 

Fomorian

Novice
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
95
Why would you expect to be able to waltz in and activate a nuclear bomb? Stuff like that tends to be secured. Also you only need 57 points of lockpicking and the appropriate gear to get through the door.

If you don't figure out by the time you encounter the Master that lockpicking is a useful skill in the game and you might want to invest a few points into it you've got no one to blame but yourself.
 

DraQ

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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
Vibalist said:
FeelTheRads said:
Sorry, but thems the breaks. Games are supposed to punish you for stupid decisions

How is it a stupid decision to not tag lockpick, in favor of repair or science? (...)

A game should punish players for dumb decisions, true. But not tagging lockpicking is not a dumb decision, it's a character choice.
This. And it's not even inherently stupid character choice (like tagging science and having IN<=4 would be), so the game effectively punishes you for lack of meta-knowledge, which is sucky design.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
This doesn't, however, change the fact that Science and Repair are mostly useless.

Don't think anyone ever argued that they are pretty useless. Especially Repair. At least with Science you can activate the bomb and get the info needed to finish The Master the diplomatic way. So apparently you can't finish it the diplomatic way without some science too, just like science isn't enough to get to the bomb...
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
DraQ said:
This. And it's not even inherently stupid character choice (like tagging science and having IN<=4 would be), so the game effectively punishes you for lack of meta-knowledge, which is sucky design.

How is it punishing the player? I don't understand. There are more ways of finishing the game, you don't HAVE to activate the bomb.
 

CrimHead

Scholar
Joined
Jan 16, 2010
Messages
3,084
How high is your speech and charisma? If you have the autopsy reports from the BoS base and suffcient numbers in these you can convince the master to kill himself. I woulldn't recommend the rocket launcher route. His ending speech is quite memorable.

Also, all skills should NOT be equal int heir practicality. Just like real life. You can hold a handstand for an hour? Good for you, I can do computer stuff.
 

Vibalist

Arcane
Joined
Jul 21, 2008
Messages
3,585
Location
Denmark
Fomorian said:
Why would you expect to be able to waltz in and activate a nuclear bomb? Stuff like that tends to be secured. Also you only need 57 points of lockpicking and the appropriate gear to get through the door.

True enough. Expecting to get into a high security area without lockpicking is kind of dumb, but then again, the game allowed me to do this earlier, when breaking into the cathedral vault. Seeing as I didn't have high enough lockpicking to get in, I simply went up and killed Morpheus and then took the key. I guess I sort of expected an alternate route along those lines in this situation too. You know, some other route down to level four, even if it meant slaughtering all the guards or whatever.

If you don't figure out by the time you encounter the Master that lockpicking is a useful skill in the game and you might want to invest a few points into it you've got no one to blame but yourself.

Well, this was the first point in the game where lockpicking was crucial. Earlier it could be used to make certain tasks easier, such as freeing the Ghoul in Necropolis and, I think, hacking the doors in The Glow. But it was never so crucial as to hinder my progress completely.

Does anyone know if you can blow up the door using dynamite or plastic explosives, by the way?

Don't think anyone ever argued that they are pretty useless. Especially Repair. At least with Science you can activate the bomb and get the info needed to finish The Master the diplomatic way. So apparently you can't finish it the diplomatic way without some science too, just like science isn't enough to get to the bomb...

Which is, in my eyes, further proof of poor design. You design your character around being able to talk people down and solve things diplomatically, but at the most crucial stage in the game you're required to also have a completely unrelated skill in order to put your diplomacy to use?

How high is your speech and charisma? If you have the autopsy reports from the BoS base and suffcient levels in these you can convince the master to kill himself. I woulldn't recommend the rocket launcher route. His ending speech is quite memorable.

Charisma is 5 and speech at around 80%. Already tried talking to The Master, but I couldn't convince him, even with the data at hand.

EDIT:

Also, all skills should NOT be equal int heir practicality. Just like real life. You can hold a handstand for an hour? Good for you, I can do computer stuff.

I don't really agree with this. Games should be about fun and interesting gameplay above all else. Realism comes second. Having certain skills be downright worse than others sacrifices gameplay in favor of realism, which is a bad tradeoff in my eyes.
 

chzr

Scholar
Joined
Jun 26, 2010
Messages
1,238
Just curious, what is a good designed rpg in your eyes?
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
You design your character around being able to talk people down and solve things diplomatically, but at the most crucial stage in the game you're required to also have a completely unrelated skill in order to put your diplomacy to use?

Uhm... well, what other skills do you think are suitable for a diplomatic character? There's Barter, but... yeah, don't see The Master giving up his plan for shiny trinkets.
Science seems pretty suitable for a diplomatic character to me.
And having one path depend on only one skill seems pretty easy, don't you think?
 

bhlaab

Erudite
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
1,787
I guess there probably should be a terminal somewhere to open the doors. Seems kind of silly that they lumped the thief and science paths together.

But they did so OH WELL
 

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