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Incline NEO Scavenger: A Post-Apocalyptic Survival RPG
- Thread starter Ebola1717
- Start date
Tommers
Augur
- Joined
- May 3, 2012
- Messages
- 181
If anybody is interested, I recently interviewed Daniel about NEO Scavenger (and games and a few other things.) It's in 2 parts. Part 1 is up today. http://tinyurl.com/cqjs6kn
Part 2 tomorrow.
Thanks
Part 2 tomorrow.
Thanks
CreamyBlood
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2005
- Messages
- 1,392
Is it a tubgirl pic?
Tommers
Augur
- Joined
- May 3, 2012
- Messages
- 181
MisterStone
Arcane
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2006
- Messages
- 9,422
it's safe bros, no tubgirl
Stelcio
Savant
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2012
- Messages
- 237
Let's necro this topic, as I happened to try this game on steam greenlight craze. It's great and very addicting, but there is something that disturbs me, as this game seems to emphasise on realism and harsh consequences. It's something I actually don't like in most cRPGs, but it's not as disturbing in fantasy settings as it is in somehow realistic setting.
The world is too fucking dangerous. I mean enemies hide behind every corner, you can look for a water in forest for like an hour or something (as it takes one AP from 5 in a turn, where a day has several turns) and suddenly it attracts some fucking forest monster just as if you would be doing it with a fucking hammer drill. How? Same with raiders, you can encouter one in a fucking collapsed building in a middle of nowhere. And what is mostly irritating - every creature is hostile, like it was born just to kill you. As I said it's very common in cRPGs but it's not realistic at all - passable in fantasy setting but that's it. Every ecosystem would collapse with so many hostile creatures.
I have nothing against lethality of untreated wounds, diseases, bad food and all this stuff, it's very cool actually, but dogmen popullating world like a hell spawn and raiders holed up in every building are out of place IMO.
Still very cool game, planning to
.
The world is too fucking dangerous. I mean enemies hide behind every corner, you can look for a water in forest for like an hour or something (as it takes one AP from 5 in a turn, where a day has several turns) and suddenly it attracts some fucking forest monster just as if you would be doing it with a fucking hammer drill. How? Same with raiders, you can encouter one in a fucking collapsed building in a middle of nowhere. And what is mostly irritating - every creature is hostile, like it was born just to kill you. As I said it's very common in cRPGs but it's not realistic at all - passable in fantasy setting but that's it. Every ecosystem would collapse with so many hostile creatures.
I have nothing against lethality of untreated wounds, diseases, bad food and all this stuff, it's very cool actually, but dogmen popullating world like a hell spawn and raiders holed up in every building are out of place IMO.
Still very cool game, planning to
.
SCO
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 16,320
Hidratate and food should probably use a equation curve to fill in the bar where if you're near death it fills 1/3 (for instance) but if you're nearly full it might not fill you at all (if you want to be evil you can use nethack 'death by stuffing').
This is to avoid the 'unfairness' of finding food as you're starving and then dying anyway, which leads to rage.
Strong might be OP? I'm not sure it gives combat benefits like though or melee (the fact you can kill the dogman at the start with would indicate it), but it also helps a lot in scavenging, which creates a virtuous circle of scavenging (with a crowbar and strong), kick the shit out of the attracted enemy (if you choose melee skills, and if strong helps).
is experience and levels implemented yet?
Finally the interface needs a lot of work. Specifically, dragging sucks. Did you consider inventory selection and then using the arrow buttons to move them to the other main inventory containers? (the body, the combine, the containers) ... like a graph.
Also skills needed in the combine slot should be implicit, unless you want to make it a bit of a puzzle with secret recipes and stuff.
This is to avoid the 'unfairness' of finding food as you're starving and then dying anyway, which leads to rage.
Strong might be OP? I'm not sure it gives combat benefits like though or melee (the fact you can kill the dogman at the start with would indicate it), but it also helps a lot in scavenging, which creates a virtuous circle of scavenging (with a crowbar and strong), kick the shit out of the attracted enemy (if you choose melee skills, and if strong helps).
is experience and levels implemented yet?
Finally the interface needs a lot of work. Specifically, dragging sucks. Did you consider inventory selection and then using the arrow buttons to move them to the other main inventory containers? (the body, the combine, the containers) ... like a graph.
Also skills needed in the combine slot should be implicit, unless you want to make it a bit of a puzzle with secret recipes and stuff.
Neo Scavenger, a game where you
Die to infection, despite being a doctor with a supply of antibiotics, antiseptic and clean bandages.
A random looter caps you twice before you can even react, killing your wasteland kingpin with a full set of gear, decked out weaponry and a secret safehouse with electricity and heating, stockpiled with enough food, water and supplies to last you months.
Die to infection, despite being a doctor with a supply of antibiotics, antiseptic and clean bandages.
A random looter caps you twice before you can even react, killing your wasteland kingpin with a full set of gear, decked out weaponry and a secret safehouse with electricity and heating, stockpiled with enough food, water and supplies to last you months.
Yeah, it shouldn't be that easy to kill a neanderthal like Cleve.
dcfedor
Blue Bottle Games
Hey Guys!
It's been a while since I haunted the Codex, but I've been meaning to come back and see what folks thought of some of the recent changes. Way back in spring, we were talking about how combat was a random die roll of death (e.g. not fun), and it could use a bit more tactical depth than exchanging whacks until someone died.
Now that combat is intra-hex, and offers multiple types of moves, I think we're getting somewhere. Even Zed's wishlist combat flavor text made it into the system
Re: spawning dogmen and NPCs in scavenging, I'm not sure I'm ready to abandon the idea yet, though I'm open to suggestions for tweaking it. The reasoning behind it is that rummaging around a locale for a while should come with a risk of attracting unwanted attention. E.g. if you're in a forest doing a search pattern, you're covering a lot of ground, and NPCs looking for prey are more likely to notice you. Similarly, abandoned buildings are a hotspot for NPCs since they are also searching for loot, and enterprising dogmen would likely adapt to that fact.
Some hexes have resources in them (lakes, rivers, trees), and those can be "mined" for corresponding resources just using the crafting window. Risk-free. That was meant to represent easy pickings that can be done quickly.
I *think* it makes sense, though I'll admit it's a really simplified system so far. I haven't yet had time to model a more complex economy/biosphere. It also provides some tension against acquiring new loot, which I think is necessary to avoid overloading the player with low-risk treasure.
"Looters" were meant to be a somewhat non-hostile NPC in the bunch, to throw the player a bone every now and then. They're fairly cowardly, and usually not well-armed, so they're a non-encounter most of the time (i.e. they run). Having more non-hostiles is an option, of course, though making them more complex and interactive than looters may be a lot of work.
Oh, and someday, funding permitting, I'd like to do another pass on the creatures and spawning. It'd be much cooler if dogmen were more focused in the north, for example, looters and such in the SE, and other creatures in other regions. It'd allow some strategy and control in which creatures you face, based on location. Also, getting groups to spawn, not just single enemies, would make things interesting.
Re: thirst/hunger using a nonlinear equation, that's an interesting idea. Is there evidence out there to support that? I was modeling both gauges on actual deficiencies more so than the sensation of hunger/thirst. I.e. you have too few calories in the body, not just "you feel hungry." The sensation of hunger is a pretty wild beast, but actual caloric intake is a pretty easy measure to track.
You're right about strong being a powerful tool, and contributes to a virtuous cycle of scavenge->loot+creature->win combat->more loot. In fact, a total combat build can really amp this cycle up. My hope, though, was that in doing so, one sacrifices some other skills like botany, tracking, hacking, etc. E.g. one wins combat all the time, but what if you're wounded and need to treat the wounds? Or what if you're confronted with a skill-based encounter?
Granted, skill-based encounters are fairly limited right now (even in the beta), but the idea is to make more available in time.
Re: the UI, yeah, that's a struggle. It's been a constant evolution since day one, and still has a ways to go.
For the dragging, did you try the take/drop cursor at all? I try to make it fairly intelligent in placing items where most would want them to go. And I added the 1,2,3,4 hotkeys to allow quick switching of movement modes. There are a few threads which talk about adding modifier keys to speed up mode switching, crafting, etc. too. Different platforms have different buttons, though, so that's been a bit tricky to find a good solution for.
Oh, and I was trying to leave the crafting w/skills as sort of a puzzle, as you guessed. I figured it'd be more fun if new players could guess recipes and they worked, rather than requiring blueprints be found before using. I realize this departs from some standards such as Arcanum, but I always found it a bit frustrating that my scientific characters couldn't mix fuel and rags without instructions
Re: XP and levels, not yet. I kinda want to, but I also want to see if there's a way to do it more realistically and keep it fun, rather than just grind for XP and pop new skills in. The Bethesda "do until you learn" is a reasonable approach, though I'm not sure if it would fit NEO Scavenger either (more due to technical limitations than anything else).
It might also be possible to open up trainer NPCs and/or books/manuals. E.g. the player can gradually learn a skill with enough training. Similarly, I'd like to leave open the possibility for things like paying a cyberclinic to replace an eye with night vision optics, or make a pact with a supernatural entity for some sort of power (in exchange for guaranteed death in 30 days, or similarly drastic price).
Oof, this is getting long. Anyway, good points all! I intend to keep updating NEO Scavenger for a bit yet, funding permitting. I'm sort of overdue on some plot work I promised players a while back (needed to fix combat/wounds first), and crafting and screen resolution upgrades are also at the top of their voting list. So I may have to address some big ticket stuff like that first.
But if I can keep paying the rent long enough, hopefully I can wrangle some more loose ends and really make it shine!
Thanks again for the feedback!
It's been a while since I haunted the Codex, but I've been meaning to come back and see what folks thought of some of the recent changes. Way back in spring, we were talking about how combat was a random die roll of death (e.g. not fun), and it could use a bit more tactical depth than exchanging whacks until someone died.
Now that combat is intra-hex, and offers multiple types of moves, I think we're getting somewhere. Even Zed's wishlist combat flavor text made it into the system
Re: spawning dogmen and NPCs in scavenging, I'm not sure I'm ready to abandon the idea yet, though I'm open to suggestions for tweaking it. The reasoning behind it is that rummaging around a locale for a while should come with a risk of attracting unwanted attention. E.g. if you're in a forest doing a search pattern, you're covering a lot of ground, and NPCs looking for prey are more likely to notice you. Similarly, abandoned buildings are a hotspot for NPCs since they are also searching for loot, and enterprising dogmen would likely adapt to that fact.
Some hexes have resources in them (lakes, rivers, trees), and those can be "mined" for corresponding resources just using the crafting window. Risk-free. That was meant to represent easy pickings that can be done quickly.
I *think* it makes sense, though I'll admit it's a really simplified system so far. I haven't yet had time to model a more complex economy/biosphere. It also provides some tension against acquiring new loot, which I think is necessary to avoid overloading the player with low-risk treasure.
"Looters" were meant to be a somewhat non-hostile NPC in the bunch, to throw the player a bone every now and then. They're fairly cowardly, and usually not well-armed, so they're a non-encounter most of the time (i.e. they run). Having more non-hostiles is an option, of course, though making them more complex and interactive than looters may be a lot of work.
Oh, and someday, funding permitting, I'd like to do another pass on the creatures and spawning. It'd be much cooler if dogmen were more focused in the north, for example, looters and such in the SE, and other creatures in other regions. It'd allow some strategy and control in which creatures you face, based on location. Also, getting groups to spawn, not just single enemies, would make things interesting.
Re: thirst/hunger using a nonlinear equation, that's an interesting idea. Is there evidence out there to support that? I was modeling both gauges on actual deficiencies more so than the sensation of hunger/thirst. I.e. you have too few calories in the body, not just "you feel hungry." The sensation of hunger is a pretty wild beast, but actual caloric intake is a pretty easy measure to track.
You're right about strong being a powerful tool, and contributes to a virtuous cycle of scavenge->loot+creature->win combat->more loot. In fact, a total combat build can really amp this cycle up. My hope, though, was that in doing so, one sacrifices some other skills like botany, tracking, hacking, etc. E.g. one wins combat all the time, but what if you're wounded and need to treat the wounds? Or what if you're confronted with a skill-based encounter?
Granted, skill-based encounters are fairly limited right now (even in the beta), but the idea is to make more available in time.
Re: the UI, yeah, that's a struggle. It's been a constant evolution since day one, and still has a ways to go.
For the dragging, did you try the take/drop cursor at all? I try to make it fairly intelligent in placing items where most would want them to go. And I added the 1,2,3,4 hotkeys to allow quick switching of movement modes. There are a few threads which talk about adding modifier keys to speed up mode switching, crafting, etc. too. Different platforms have different buttons, though, so that's been a bit tricky to find a good solution for.
Oh, and I was trying to leave the crafting w/skills as sort of a puzzle, as you guessed. I figured it'd be more fun if new players could guess recipes and they worked, rather than requiring blueprints be found before using. I realize this departs from some standards such as Arcanum, but I always found it a bit frustrating that my scientific characters couldn't mix fuel and rags without instructions
Re: XP and levels, not yet. I kinda want to, but I also want to see if there's a way to do it more realistically and keep it fun, rather than just grind for XP and pop new skills in. The Bethesda "do until you learn" is a reasonable approach, though I'm not sure if it would fit NEO Scavenger either (more due to technical limitations than anything else).
It might also be possible to open up trainer NPCs and/or books/manuals. E.g. the player can gradually learn a skill with enough training. Similarly, I'd like to leave open the possibility for things like paying a cyberclinic to replace an eye with night vision optics, or make a pact with a supernatural entity for some sort of power (in exchange for guaranteed death in 30 days, or similarly drastic price).
Oof, this is getting long. Anyway, good points all! I intend to keep updating NEO Scavenger for a bit yet, funding permitting. I'm sort of overdue on some plot work I promised players a while back (needed to fix combat/wounds first), and crafting and screen resolution upgrades are also at the top of their voting list. So I may have to address some big ticket stuff like that first.
But if I can keep paying the rent long enough, hopefully I can wrangle some more loose ends and really make it shine!
Thanks again for the feedback!
Stelcio
Savant
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2012
- Messages
- 237
The problem is that when you have 4 locations on one hex to scavenge, you can spawn 4 mobs there, which is ridiculous. Mobs shouldn't be spawned in result of your actions, they should "be there" already, reacting on what you do. That would prevent from suddenly being surrounded by 4 dogmen and 2 raiders who shouldn't be wandering around one place just like that, waiting for a player to mess around. It makes a feeling that the world isn't dangerous per se, only hostile towards our character particularly
Also, why every raider attacks us no matter what? Why they never run away, even when they are seriously injured? Sometimes I didn't even have anything of value. Who would risk life for such a low stake? And not every fight should be lethal, we could be beaten up, scraped of valuables,
Randomly spawning "mobs" are bad design in a game like this, I'd say. They should exist like the player does, moving with a purpose and having their own safe havens.
The first time you meet another human being, you either run away or proceed to beat their face into pavement. It is a bit unnerving really - the game hasn't provided any reason for you to act in this manner (and should you always have to?). Steal cues from The Road, put more emphasis on the first impression you are making with the encounter. Is he one of the good guys or can you spot the tell-tale signs of cannibalism from him?
If I had the power, I'd add a small game in the initial phase of the encounter where you have to make the snap judgement on weather the other guy is dangerous or not. The building up paranoia and distrust eventually leading you to commit horrible mistakes. If you keep the variety diverse enough, with the small chance of non-violent resolution, it'd make the encounters less of a chore that you barely pay attention to.
The first time you meet another human being, you either run away or proceed to beat their face into pavement. It is a bit unnerving really - the game hasn't provided any reason for you to act in this manner (and should you always have to?). Steal cues from The Road, put more emphasis on the first impression you are making with the encounter. Is he one of the good guys or can you spot the tell-tale signs of cannibalism from him?
If I had the power, I'd add a small game in the initial phase of the encounter where you have to make the snap judgement on weather the other guy is dangerous or not. The building up paranoia and distrust eventually leading you to commit horrible mistakes. If you keep the variety diverse enough, with the small chance of non-violent resolution, it'd make the encounters less of a chore that you barely pay attention to.
SCO
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 16,320
The durability of the items... does it do anything? Should there be a skill and/or a recipe to increase it or hold the decline?
Also there is something that disturbs me about the spawns: they come equipped with 100% items - here you are, trying to find quality equipment while hiding, while you might as well get a combat build and make a racket and get much better quality equipment than what you scavenge (if it does anything, which it might not yet).
Also there is something that disturbs me about the spawns: they come equipped with 100% items - here you are, trying to find quality equipment while hiding, while you might as well get a combat build and make a racket and get much better quality equipment than what you scavenge (if it does anything, which it might not yet).
SCO
Arcane
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2009
- Messages
- 16,320
I'd take some lessons from roguelikes like liberal crime squad to get a team for both sides. Encounters while you're alone would be hella dangerous because you'd could face more than one, things would get more involved because you'd have a greater skills pallete, and management of things, you could even attack with a gun from far way in pinch movements, introducing a tactics element outside of combat proper.
The interface and combat would have to be redesigned though (i think it's doable). You could even separate the teams quite naturally considering the map and that it's turnbased, maybe making some missions that are time-limited and other stuff like a different headquarters for teams.
Besides, feral dogs run in packs.
The interface and combat would have to be redesigned though (i think it's doable). You could even separate the teams quite naturally considering the map and that it's turnbased, maybe making some missions that are time-limited and other stuff like a different headquarters for teams.
Besides, feral dogs run in packs.
Regvard
Arcane
Please don't.
-Implants/steroids/drugs that'll boost your power and kill you in 30 days ----> Why not?
-Supernatural stuff ----> No.
I don't know if this has been discussed before but how about letting players set up a hideout in the woods/cities with different properties? Ones you can reinforce/improve with the stuff you find such as tents, generators, traps etc. Maybe you can launch forays into the world to scavenge for food or hunt from your hideout. And then your hiding/stealth/tracking skills play a role in whether you are found or been followed back. Basic dipshit crazy survivalist stuff.
SkullSplitter
Educated
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2012
- Messages
- 27
Oh shit I fucking love item collectan gaems.
SO MANY ITEMS TO TAKE
Aw yeeeeah a shopping cart, this is in the vehicles tab. Now you can take all the items, at least until a dogman kills you.
SO MANY ITEMS TO TAKE
Aw yeeeeah a shopping cart, this is in the vehicles tab. Now you can take all the items, at least until a dogman kills you.
Johannes
Arcane
Trudging a shopping cart around in the woods is a bit crazy though.
Stelcio
Savant
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2012
- Messages
- 237
I spent last 3 hours playing this. Amazing. As I grasped few basic rules of survival, I now managed to survive more than a week. Much more actually. I wished I could save until my freshly crafted scoped rifle FUCKING DISAPPEARED just because there was no place for it on the floor! I alt+f4ed...
Scoped rifle is nothing really. Ammunition, on the other hand...
Stelcio
Savant
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2012
- Messages
- 237
The thing is I did have ammo, even stuffed a dogman with it just a while before it happened.
Forgot to mention I played demo though. Maybe it's fixed in beta.
Gozma
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2012
- Messages
- 2,951
Also I must add the kind of people that like this game would probably really appreciate you hotkeying the hell out of everything. Like "I want to put the contents in the container under the mouse pointer in the next container I click" level hotkeying, Dwarf Fortress level scores-of-hotkeys interface. I know you want to keep it playable on tablets and things and you can just leave the current cumbersome interface for those players and the hotkeys can all be invisible.
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