Neverwinter Nights - why are you guys so negative ?

[Vault Dweller]

Sarvis' Page!

You are right, I think it was 79.99 plus taxes (CDN)

Edit: PAGE EIGHT!!!!!! I dedicate this page to the man whose efforts and trolling kept the thread alive! Sarvis, say a few words for our readers!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Right, you can hate the game all you want.

I don't.

I can understand if you were disappointed, and even are upset with Bioware about it. But when you call the fan base morons or saying all the module builders are lazy you have ceased stating your opinion about the game and started being an asshole.

So what? The point is, people who were mislead have the right to be angry. People who think that NWN OC was crap have a point when they call those who like and praise it morons. People who saw the undisputable limitations of the toolset have a point when they don't care for those who make all the "Lego" adventures all day. And finally, I hope you can see the difference between a good shareware game like EVN, Geneforge, Prelude, etc and a NWN module.

 

[Sarvis]

So what? The point is, people who were mislead have the right to be angry. People who think that NWN OC was crap have a point when they call those who like and praise it morons.

No. They don't. Just because you do not enjoy something does not mean anyone who does is a moron. I absolutely can't stand people with the attitude that anyone who likes something different must be stupid.

People who saw the undisputable limitations of the toolset have a point when they don't care for those who make all the "Lego" adventures all day. And finally, I hope you can see the difference between a good shareware game like EVN, Geneforge,
Prelude, etc and a NWN module.

No, they don't. The graphics are the only thing "Lego" about those adventures. It's especially illuminating that people both complain about cookie cutter graphics, and complain about the scripting language which provides so much flexibility!

Yes, I can see the difference between Geneforge and an NWN module. Many of the modules I've blade have been much more fun!

Not to mention that Jeff Vogel makes money off his games, while the NWN Community does all their hard work for free.

Just out of curiousity, what is your opinion about people building modules for Blades of Avernum? Are they lazy morons as well? Or is it just people who associate themselves with the Prime Evil that is Bioware?

 

[Transcendent One]

Not to mention that Jeff Vogel makes money off his games, while the NWN Community does all their hard work for free

Nothing like fixing up a paid company's errors free of charge.

 

[Volourn]

"Wow. You just proved that you belong here! I guess I must've really said something bad about you to get flamed like that..."

Ha. The fact you post on 'codex makes you a moron. That goes for everyone including me.


"I dedicate this page to the man whose efforts and trolling kept the thread alive! Sarvis, say a few words for our readers!"

He's had LOTS of help. :wink:

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint_Proverbius

If you aren't going to read my posts why are you trying to talk about them? I clearly stated my point over 5 times, at least one of which was in all caps. If you missed it you are either just jumping on the "Flame Sarvis Bandwagon" or have serious reading comprehension problems.

So, your point was that people on RPG Codex are too insulting and flame too much? And you flamed me for asking what your point was?

So, basically, it took you six pages to prove your point, and it only took me one post to make you a hypocrite. Looks like I win the day.

KTHXBYE.

 

[Sarvis]

Saint_Proverbius

If you aren't going to read my posts why are you trying to talk about them? I clearly stated my point over 5 times, at least one of which was in all caps. If you missed it you are either just jumping on the "Flame Sarvis Bandwagon" or have serious reading comprehension problems.

So, your point was that people on RPG Codex are too insulting and flame too much? And you flamed me for asking what your point was?

So, basically, it took you six pages to prove your point, and it only took me one post to make you a hypocrite. Looks like I win the day.

KTHXBYE.

Shit dude, again you only prove you aren't paying attention. I became a hypocrite last night when I came home drunk and started in with Mom jokes on Sheriff!


Transcendent One

You mean like the Co8 team does for ToEE? Or Blades of Avernum builders do for Spiderweb? Or perhaps you are talking about Unreal Tournament builders or the people who made Counter Strike?

Sorry, but community mods are half the reason for computer gaming vs. console gaming. You guys sit here using it as ammo against Bioware, when almost every good game ever released on the PC has a mod community.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just because you do not enjoy something does not mean anyone who does is a moron.

You are right, of course not. However, NWN OC has set such a low standard that it could be used as an IQ test. Same with Lionheart. I wasn't overly fond of KOTOR for example, but at least there were reasons for people to like it. NWN OC had none.

I absolutely can't stand people with the attitude that anyone who likes something different must be stupid.

Are you sure you've got the right website? Why don't you try IntraGalactic League of Sims?

The graphics are the only thing "Lego" about those adventures. It's especially illuminating that people both complain about cookie cutter graphics, and complain about the scripting language which provides so much flexibility!

I didn't mean the graphics, but I'm surprised you referred to them as "cookie cutter". As for the scripting language, I heard otherwise, but I guess that depends on what the goal of a modder was.

Yes, I can see the difference between Geneforge and an NWN module. Many of the modules I've blade have been much more fun!

It's ok, not everyone likes RPGs.

Not to mention that Jeff Vogel makes money off his games, while the NWN Community does all their hard work for free.

Whose fault is that?

Just out of curiousity, what is your opinion about people building modules for Blades of Avernum? Are they lazy morons as well?

I hope you noticed that I didn't call the modders lazy morons. As for BoA's modders, I haven't tried the editor yet, so I'm unable to comment on that.

 

[Sarvis]

You are right, of course not. However, NWN OC has set such a low standard that it could be used as an IQ test. Same with Lionheart. I wasn't overly fond of KOTOR for example, but at least there were reasons for people to like it. NWN OC had none.

In your opinion. Obviously some people feel differently. Frankly the NWN OC is more interesting than ToEE's campaign if only because ToEE is just one big dungeon crawl. If the combat in ToEE wasn't so good I'd have stopped playing long ago...

Are you sure you've got the right website? Why don't you try IntraGalactic League of Sims?

Never been there. Never heard of it, and not really interested... heh.

I didn't mean the graphics, but I'm surprised you referred to them as "cookie cutter". As for the scripting language, I heard otherwise, but I guess that depends on what the goal of a modder was.

I was only stating what seems to be the common attitude around here about the tilesets. Although the term pretty much fits I guess, with buildings and such being largely predefined shapes.

I meant that people often complain about having to learn the scripting language to create a good module. Without that scripting language you really would have Lego modules, as nothing but the dialog would ever be different and even THAT would be limited!

It's ok, not everyone likes RPGs.

*smirk* Actually it was the resemblence to an RTS that turned me off. If it helps any I liked both Avernum 2 and 3. Well, up until the later levels anyway where combat just gets tedious...

Whose fault is that?

No ones?

Jeff has the talent and ability to write game engines, do the graphics AND create good storylines. Good for him.

Real dev houses typically have seperate people do all of those things, and in NWN's case they took care of two (engine, graphics) so that people with only the story writing talent could do their thing. Granted, in many cases it is questionable if they actually have any talent... but enough to do make it worthwhile as a player.

I don't see how that is anyone's fault, and I still fail to see why people deserve the derision of people on RPGCodex for creating NWN modules and expressing their talent.

I hope you noticed that I didn't call the modders lazy morons. As for BoA's modders, I haven't tried the editor yet, so I'm unable to comment on that.

No, but I pointed out that other people had done so and you said they had a point.

What does using the editor have to do with judging people for putting hard work into something for the enjoyment of others?

 

[Spazmo]

Geneforge looks like an RTS? Let's ignore for now the fact that a game with turn based combat has trouble looking like a real time strategy game. I'd rather just point out that you're an idiot because Geneforge is MILES ahead of anything BioWare has ever created, especially NWN. Heck, it's all around better than either Troika product, too, to dispel any notions of fanboyism you may harbor. If you can't recognise how good Geneforge is--be it because you're a 'graphics whore', because you have poor taste in RPGs or just because you don't know a good deal when you see it--you're hopeless.

 

[Sarvis]

Geneforge looks like an RTS? Let's ignore for now the fact that a game with turn based combat has trouble looking like a real time strategy game. I'd rather just point out that you're an idiot because Geneforge is MILES ahead of anything BioWare has ever created, especially NWN. Heck, it's all around better than either Troika product, too, to dispel any notions of fanboyism you may harbor. If you can't recognise how good Geneforge is--be it because you're a 'graphics whore', because you have poor taste in RPGs or just because you don't know a good deal when you see it--you're hopeless.

It is turn based isn't it? My memory is a little fuzzy, as I haven't played it since it was first released... but I do remember having to direct around a bunch of creatures and "build" them and such. I dunno... it just didn't appeal to me. Maybe it got better later on, but I didn't even finish the demo I think...

I did mention liking the Avernum games though, so I don't see where you get to go off on your high horse there. Or are the Avernum games not MILES ahead of anything BioWare has ever produced despite coming from the same developer as Geneforge?

But I guess we're just back to that "I like something you don't so you're dumb" attitude which I've just been saying was a little too prevalent around here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

It is turn based isn't it? My memory is a little fuzzy, as I haven't played it since it was first released... but I do remember having to direct around a bunch of creatures and "build" them and such.

Your memory is fuzzy indeed, as you didn't have to have a bunch of creatures just like DnD spellcasters don't have to summon creatures.

 

[Sarvis]

It is turn based isn't it? My memory is a little fuzzy, as I haven't played it since it was first released... but I do remember having to direct around a bunch of creatures and "build" them and such.

Your memory is fuzzy indeed, as you didn't have to have a bunch of creatures just like DnD spellcasters don't have to summon creatures.

But wasn't the whole point of the game to create new and stronger creatures? Then use them to crush your enemies?

Oh well, is any of that relevant?

 

[Spazmo]

If you didn't like making creatures, all you had to do was select the agent class, who are really terrible at making creatures and better at spellcasting.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Frankly the NWN OC is more interesting than ToEE's campaign if only because ToEE is just one big dungeon crawl. If the combat in ToEE wasn't so good I'd have stopped playing long ago...

At least ToEE excels at something. Some games have only one or two strong sides: ToEE and SS had tactical combat, PST had the story and NPCs, Arcanum had role-playing and setting, and NWN OC, well, had nothing.

I meant that people often complain about having to learn the scripting language to create a good module. Without that scripting language you really would have Lego modules, as nothing but the dialog would ever be different and even THAT would be limited!

Even with the scripting, a lot of things are hardcoded, so no matter what, it's always limited.

Actually it was the resemblence to an RTS that turned me off

I believe that Spazmo had already covered that

If it helps any I liked both Avernum 2 and 3.

No, it doesn't. Different styles.

Whose fault is that?

No ones?

Then why state that Jeff's getting paid for his work unlike the modders? As far as I'm concerned, nothing (other then lack of talent, patience, focus, etc ) stops them from making a shareware game and getting paid for their hard work.

I still fail to see why people deserve the derision of people on RPGCodex for creating NWN modules and expressing their talent.

Unless I'm mistaken, there was only one person who felt that way. So, what's with the "people" label?

No, but I pointed out that other people had done so and you said they had a point.

If a person failed to find a good module out of thousands available, then it's understandable if he's little respect for the modders, is it not?

What does using the editor have to do with judging people for putting hard work into something for the enjoyment of others?

If an editor can support high quality modules that are as good as commercial products, it's one thing. If an editor can support only crappy lego adventures, then it's a waste of time. There are many games that came with editors, but there are few mods/modules that were worth the effort and showed the effort.

 

[Volourn]

"Geneforge is MILES ahead of anything BioWare has ever created,"

Not if its anything like Spiderweb's demos of Avernum it sure as heck isn't. Simple tunr base combat with pretty much no roel-playing is not my idea of being miles ahead of anything.

 

[Deathy]

Vol, it's very different in style to the Avernum series. It focuses a lot more on roleplaying that any other CRPG that I have played, including Fallout.

 

[Spazmo]

Well, no, Volourn, it's not much like the Avernum games, which is likely the main reason I didn't dig Avernum myself (shockhorrorgasp). Geneforge is midly prettier (due to actual animations!) and MUCH deeper in terms of role-playing, far deeper than NWN and yes, Fallout.

Servis, I'm saying you're an idiot precisely because you can't appreciate Geneforge, a true triumph of RPGs.

 

[Sarvis]

Well, no, Volourn, it's not much like the Avernum games, which is likely the main reason I didn't dig Avernum myself (shockhorrorgasp). Geneforge is midly prettier (due to actual animations!) and MUCH deeper in terms of role-playing, far deeper than NWN and yes, Fallout.

Servis, I'm saying you're an idiot precisely because you can't appreciate Geneforge, a true triumph of RPGs.

And I'm saying you're an idiot because you think your opinion is the only intelligent opinion.

 

[Deathy]

Not speaking for anyone else, but dismissing Geneforge because of an RTS vibe that it gave you is a close minded and idiotic opinion.
I could think of several reasons for dismisssing Geneforge that would be acceptable as intelligent, rather than just close minded stupitity, for example, you could quite easily dislike Geneforge for the large amount of combat and the inadequate combat system that the game had, or even the late game balnce problems that could result in your character being unable to advance any further in the game, because you made wrong choices for skills.

I guess the point of my post is that, when regarding Geneforge, I can accept a number of opinion that are wildly different to my oiwn, because they have intelligence, reason, and fact to back them up. I cannot accept opinions that are of the ignorant and generally close-minded, traits that you have demonstrated with your reason for disliking Geneforge.

 

[Sarvis]

Not speaking for anyone else, but dismissing Geneforge because of an RTS vibe that it gave you is a close minded and idiotic opinion.
I could think of several reasons for dismisssing Geneforge that would be acceptable as intelligent, rather than just close minded stupitity, for example, you could quite easily dislike Geneforge for the large amount of combat and the inadequate combat system that the game had, or even the late game balnce problems that could result in your character being unable to advance any further in the game, because you made wrong choices for skills.

I guess the point of my post is that, when regarding Geneforge, I can accept a number of opinion that are wildly different to my oiwn, because they have intelligence, reason, and fact to back them up. I cannot accept opinions that are of the ignorant and generally close-minded, traits that you have demonstrated with your reason for disliking Geneforge.

Umm... It featured a style of gameplay I did not enjoy. How is that being closed minded? I didn't say it was a bad game, I just said I didn't enjoy it. I'm sorry if you think it is closed minded, but I'm not going to torture myself with gameply that I dislike just to see if a game has other redeeming qualities. Maybe if I were reviewing the game, but not if I'm trying to find something to ENJOY my time with.

 

[Deathy]

Very well. The fact that quite a number of people enjoy the game and refer to it as one of the greats doesn't even make you wonder if you happened to miss something? It doesn't tempt you to try the game again to see if you could perhaps find the thing that you missed last time. The aspects that you didn't see that make it a great game in the opinions of others.

Same kind of deal with me and NWN, as it happens.
I try it, completle the official campaign, uninstall it in disgust and vow never to play it again. Then it happens that everyone is saying how great it is. So I install it again, wondering if I have missed something, of if there was a patch released that insterted fun into the game. I patch the game, try another play through the game, if feels even worse, as I am familiar with the gimmicky features and the poor implementation of them, they become even more apparent to me. So I think to myself, maybe the official campaign is the only thing that sucks. So I try some modules, I go through and find the top rated ones on NWVault. I try most of them. If anything, they are on average, worse than the official campaign. Still, everybody else is saying that they are great. So I wonder if its even possible at all to make a good module. I do some research and play around with the editor for a bit. Long enough so that I understand the extreme limitations of the game engine, and some of the hideously complex hackiing that would be required to get around some of the less severe limitations. Basically, I discover that it could be nearly impossible to create an truly outstanding game without significantly changing the way the the Aurora engine actually works. Now, for the moment, I've neglected multiplayer. The reason for that being that I have had, in the past, very bad experiences with multiplayer communities. Basically, it amounts to the fact that the scene is usually rife with immature and obscenely stupid politics. But, since all else had failed, I try it anyway. I find a bland and uninteresting experience, after attempting many times to find something that would redeem the game for me. The conclusion I game to is that for some reason, possibly psychological, the game couldn't draw me in at all. What does it say for others who play the game and enjoy it? Are they idiots? Perhaps they are, it is a possible conclusion, although a leap of logic.

It is obvious that I see the game in a very different light then they do, Where they see fun, I see poor implementation of gimmicky features. Maybe I'm just more critical than they are.

Now, my point to you, Sarvis, and for that matter, anybody on either side of the argument, is that, if you haven't really attempted to like the game or even understand, you shouldn't really talk about it. Maybe you play games as if you are a reviewer. After all, you're debating about the games. If you don't know as much as possible about them, why waste the time of others in deabting about them?

 

[Tiliqua]

One last thing, if the game was so bad... how did you get to be a guildmaster in the first place? I mean seriously, if I hate a game I stop playing it within a day or two. Yet you apparently kept up with the shittiest game ever long enough to become a member in several guilds and have all kinds of friends on it. Saying you kept on because of those friendships doesn't really help your point, because how the hell were you there long enough to form them in the first place?

Explaining things to you Sarvis is like trying to organize a henchman - very tedious. The development of NWN took many years and many people (including myself) prepared for the game by forming Guilds. I was heavily involved in Liquid and Obscuritas. We were planning to play on Toril, an ALFA breakaway as well as ALFA itself. ALFA took a long time to come online and so we amused ourselves with modules while we were waiting. I also played with fellow aussie gamers in specifically aussie Guilds.

Perhaps if you ever spend 2-3 years with fellow gamers you will have enough residual loyalty to not give them the flick the second things don't pan out the way you hoped. I'm currently a member of Black Foxes a Guild that will no doubt play NWN2 if it is any good, I hope this meets with your approval.

 

[Sarvis]

One last thing, if the game was so bad... how did you get to be a guildmaster in the first place? I mean seriously, if I hate a game I stop playing it within a day or two. Yet you apparently kept up with the shittiest game ever long enough to become a member in several guilds and have all kinds of friends on it. Saying you kept on because of those friendships doesn't really help your point, because how the hell were you there long enough to form them in the first place?

Explaining things to you Sarvis is like trying to organize a henchman - very tedious. The development of NWN took many years and many people (including myself) prepared for the game by forming Guilds. I was heavily involved in Liquid and Obscuritas. We were planning to play on Toril, an ALFA breakaway as well as ALFA itself. ALFA took a long time to come online and so we amused ourselves with modules while we were waiting. I also played with fellow aussie gamers in specifically aussie Guilds.

Perhaps if you ever spend 2-3 years with fellow gamers you will have enough residual loyalty to not give them the flick the second things don't pan out the way you hoped. I'm currently a member of Black Foxes a Guild that will no doubt play NWN2 if it is any good, I hope this meets with your approval.

Oh, I see. I thought you meant guilds within a game server...

My mistake.

 

[Sarvis]

Very well. The fact that quite a number of people enjoy the game and refer to it as one of the greats doesn't even make you wonder if you happened to miss something? It doesn't tempt you to try the game again to see if you could perhaps find the thing that you missed last time. The aspects that you didn't see that make it a great game in the opinions of others.

A little, but right now I am playing through three other games (ToEE, Black & White and Laxius Power) so I'm not overly inclined to fit in a game which I already didn't enjoy once.

So I think to myself, maybe the official campaign is the only thing that sucks. So I try some modules, I go through and find the top rated ones on NWVault. I try most of them. If anything, they are on average, worse than the official campaign. Still, everybody else is saying that they are great. So I wonder if its even possible at all to make a good module.

There's a feeling even within the fanbase that earlier top rated modules weren't that great. Depending on how early you started playing them, you may not have had much to look at. I started the game a little over a year and a half ago, and by then people really started knowing what they were doing with the toolset. Penultima ReRolled is quite a bit better than Penultima, and the modules Stephan Gagne has done since (Elegia Eternum) are quite possibly the best out there. Dreamcatchers is a lot better than Shadowlords, although neither are really THAT great in my opinion... heh.

I do some research and play around with the editor for a bit. Long enough so that I understand the extreme limitations of the game engine, and some of the hideously complex hackiing that would be required to get around some of the less severe limitations. Basically, I discover that it could be nearly impossible to create an truly outstanding game without significantly changing the way the the Aurora engine actually works.

The only thing the engine really limits are the graphics and the combat. Now if you found the combat so distasteful that it was impossible to enjoy the game, then fine... but you then lose any right to talk about my reasons for disliking Geneforge because that IS my reason for it.

The conclusion I game to is that for some reason, possibly psychological, the game couldn't draw me in at all. What does it say for others who play the game and enjoy it? Are they idiots? Perhaps they are, it is a possible conclusion, although a leap of logic.

But you knew the game couldn't draw you in right away. You basically wasted a lot of your time trying to find out what other people saw in the game, without ever realizing it is simply a matter of taste.

It is obvious that I see the game in a very different light then they do, Where they see fun, I see poor implementation of gimmicky features. Maybe I'm just more critical than they are.

Just out of curiousity, what features are you considering gimicky?

Now, my point to you, Sarvis, and for that matter, anybody on either side of the argument, is that, if you haven't really attempted to like the game or even understand, you shouldn't really talk about it. Maybe you play games as if you are a reviewer. After all, you're debating about the games. If you don't know as much as possible about them, why waste the time of others in deabting about them?

I wasn't talking about it, I just explained why I didn't like it. I'm not telling anybody else that they should or shouldn't, nor that they are morons if they do. I'm just saying I didn't enjoy the game. I understand how you might not be used to that around here...