New AP Gameplay Footage

[Qwinn]

Has it occurred to -anyone- that saying "It looks a lot like ME" might not be automatically considered horrible by a large number of people?

I also get annoyed with stupid generalities like "mini games suck". -Some- mini games suck. Some are cool. Comically enough, the games people around here seem to consider the worst did the best job with minigames, IMO (examples - lockpicking in Oblivion, and lockpicking and decryption in Fallout 3). They did most other things pretty crappily, especially Oblivion, but IMO they got those right. And Mass Effect, which I liked, had a -very lame- minigame in their Decryption thing. I actually prefer minigames like the one needed to reactivate the VI on Noveria. I just wish they'd be more difficult.

Qwinn

 

[Wyrmlord]

Has it occurred to -anyone- that saying "It looks a lot like ME" might not be automatically considered horrible by a large number of people?

Qwinn

I think you overestimate ME's popularity even as a mainstream game.

Dedicated Bioware fans do not like it.

Its sales on the 360 were not highly impressive. It did sell 1 million+, but considering how much they had to market and hype the game, it just seems a bit too little for a mainstream game.

Reviews frequently pointed out how bland the sidequests were. I really don't think the game received a high level of distinction from any group of gamers.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

Good at making role playing games? Can someone help me please, I'm at a struggle to think of any game from Obsidian Entertainment which can be considered good.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Mask of the Betrayer, you troll. KotoR 2 was pretty good as well.

 

[Jedi_Learner]

KotoR 2 was pretty good as well.

Your standards must be very low.

 

[Demnogonis Saastuttaja]

I also get annoyed with stupid generalities like "mini games suck". -Some- mini games suck. Some are cool.

I guess so, if you consider the fighting in Blades of Steel a minigame. But in RPGs? Nah. Using them simply to replace a stat roll with something tedious and stupid (Fallout 3/Oblivion/ME) is really the kind of interactivity I could do without.

 

[MetalCraze]

Mask of the Betrayer, you troll. KotoR 2 was pretty good as well.

KotOR 2 had good writing (this includes dialogue text, characters and story). In everything else it was as bad as KotOR 1. Starting with terrible combat and right down to the exactly same responses for different dialogue choices.

Comically enough, the games people around here seem to consider the worst did the best job with minigames, IMO (examples - lockpicking in Oblivion, and lockpicking and decryption in Fallout 3).

That was some fun minigame right there - wow I have like 50 lockpicks let's have fun! - twitch twitch twitch - again twitch twitch twitch - buttonmash -buttonmash - twitch twitch twitch - again and again and again - wow this is the best minigaem evar! And feels so right in my RetardoPG
Codex really needs a reboot. ESF slowly takes over.

 

[GarfunkeL]

And hacking in F3 was fun for the very first time, meh for the second time and tedious shit after that.

Besides, there was absolutely nothing wrong in the way that VtM:B handled hacking and lockpicking. That's the way it should go.

 

[MetalCraze]

Indeed. VtmB had some flaws but when it comes to making RPG non-combat skills -work- in an action/combat-oriented game it was very good at it - and without boring twitching mini-games.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

I'm playing VtmB now. Intimidation, seduction, haggle, and inspection all seem pretty useless.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Inspection reveals items around the world. It's not THAT important if you obsessively scour every nook and corner, besides there's not that much loot anyway.

Haggle ended up being pretty useless since trading is in such a minor role.

Seduction helps in several quests, though you can subvert it with either persuasion or intimidation but not in all cases. Plus it gives you access to the blood dolls, who are somewhat useful as always-willing, safe drinking bio-machines.

 

[Dionysus]

Indeed. VtmB had some flaws but when it comes to making RPG non-combat skills -work- in an action/combat-oriented game it was very good at it - and without boring twitching mini-games.

Except when the devs forgot that the non-combat skills existed, which seemed to happen regularly throughout the game. I hope Obsidian does much better with their more limited skill set.

 

[Thrasher]

I kind of liked the Wizardry 8 locking picking minigame. And the trap disarming minigame was cool.

 

[MetalCraze]

Indeed. VtmB had some flaws but when it comes to making RPG non-combat skills -work- in an action/combat-oriented game it was very good at it - and without boring twitching mini-games.

Except when the devs forgot that the non-combat skills existed, which seemed to happen regularly throughout the game. I hope Obsidian does much better with their more limited skill set.

Yes - in fact they forgot about non-combat skills (like the same hacking and lockpicking) so much that they dedicated whole quests to them.

But yeah Obsidian will do a better job with mini-games, sure

 

[Dionysus]

Yes - in fact they forgot about non-combat skills (like the same hacking and lockpicking) so much that they dedicated whole quests to them.

But yeah Obsidian will do a better job with mini-games, sure

I think I’d prefer Bloodlines with a lockpicking minigame if it meant that I wouldn’t constantly get locked into rooms that can only be escaped by murdering all of the bad guys… or if I could pick the lock to Tung’s hideout instead of getting railroaded through a stupid and irrelevant subplot. Yeah, I’d definitely take a consistently implemented minigame over the half-assed quest/level design in Bloodlines. I’m not too confident that Obsidian will deliver such a thing, but it really wouldn't be hard to top Bloodlines in this regard.

 

[Eldritch]

less locks more glocks yo

and cocks

 

[MetalCraze]

@Dionysus:

First: that's some awesome logic. I on the other side would've preffered more lockpicking chances in those cases and wouldn't eat some shit like neo-"rpg" players. Considering that Bloodlines is like a perfect aRPG compared to pieces of shit that are ME and F3 (where omg all those minigames didn't save you from more retarded combat)
But yeah that's just design. However - in bad and evil Bloodlines you f.e. could avoid most of the combat by using well developed Obfuscate or stealth skill.
(On my last playthrough I pumped up Obfuscate high enough and was simply running past everyone to the boss)

Second: Are you talking out of your ass? I'm wondering about those forced combats where you were locked in a room and should've fight everyone to get out? Besides the boss battles.

Bloodlines was an action-RPG unfortunately and action part hurt the RPG, just like with every aRPG - but it didn't make most of the combat forced like in all other aRPGs.

And at the same time Bloodlines had something more than an appeal for retards in its RPG part - like actually intelligent writing and not some "colorful villains" with a stereotypical accent and extremely cheesy lines like
"whatcha gonna do? Kill me? That won't bring your missiles back"

 

[Dionysus]

First: that's some awesome logic. I on the other side would've preffered more lockpicking chances in those cases and wouldn't eat some shit like neo-"rpg" players. Considering that Bloodlines is like a perfect aRPG compared to pieces of shit that are ME and F3 (where omg all those minigames didn't save you from more retarded combat)

We aren’t talking about ME and FO3. You brought up Bloodlines as a model for this sort of thing, and I’m just saying that it fell short specifically in this area. This was the biggest flaw in the game. For example, I think Deus Ex did a more consistent job of integrating noncombat skills.

But yeah that's just design. However - in bad and evil Bloodlines you f.e. could avoid most of the combat by using well developed Obfuscate or stealth skill.
(On my last playthrough I pumped up Obfuscate high enough and was simply running past everyone to the boss)

Yeah, I could sneak through much of the game (except the forced unavoidable combat) with a Ventrue with a 5/10 stealth skill. And if you really did something like this, then you must have noticed that some of the levels (not even including the ridiculous forced combat) were designed by people that forgot that stealth was an option (e.g., Hotel Hallowbrook). We could mod an invisibility power into Doom that lets you stroll through most of the levels undetected, but that doesn’t mean that we’ve done a good job of integrating stealth into the game.

Second: Are you talking out of your ass? I'm wondering about those forced combats where you were locked in a room and should've fight everyone to get out? Besides the boss battles.

Why wouldn’t I include the boss battles? Here, just check out this topic. In fact, my first semi-detailed description of the problems (p. 2) was in response to you, but you might have missed it because you didn’t post anymore in the topic.

 

[DiverNB]

"YEah we've got you know really extensive dialogue trees and gadgets and..."

Funny how they never showed ANY of those features in that entire interview.
Game looks like a 3rd person shooter with some conversations so far.

 

[MetalCraze]

Bloodlines as a model for this sort of thing, and I’m just saying that it fell short specifically in this area. This was the biggest flaw in the game. For example, I think Deus Ex did a more consistent job of integrating noncombat skills.

Deus Ex however didn't have roleplaying part like solving something through the character interactions or even character interactions. It was just a collection of non-linear missions - but a good one at that.

Yeah, I could sneak through much of the game (except the forced unavoidable combat) with a Ventrue with a 5/10 stealth skill. And if you really did something like this, then you must have noticed that some of the levels (not even including the ridiculous forced combat) were designed by people that forgot that stealth was an option (e.g., Hotel Hallowbrook).

You can still sneak through it. But it was bad - yes.

We could mod an invisibility power into Doom that lets you stroll through most of the levels undetected, but that doesn’t mean that we’ve done a good job of integrating stealth into the game.

Well actually we can bash even games like Fallout for that - supermutant base full of heavy gun wielding supermutants was anything but a map for stealth - yet you can still sneak through it undetected.
It was better however in that that it didn't have a respawn and a forced encounter with boss - which is another example of how "a"ction in aRPG ruins "RPG".

Why wouldn’t I include the boss battles? Here, just check out this topic. In fact, my first semi-detailed description of the problems (p. 2) was in response to you, but you might have missed it because you didn’t post anymore in the topic.

Slashterpiece was a boss battle - and I've already talked about them. In the same way we can talk about your comparison of Deus Ex to it - Deus Ex had forced combat too - like the Gunther battle which you can't avoid and must fight him to proceed - or the battle with that another chick from UNATCO.
Boss battles were always an unavoidable must in nearly every RPG (not speaking about aRPG) except a few ones.

As for Bad Blood - that is probably the only example of forced combat besides boss battles.

 

[Fat Dragon]

or the battle with that another chick from UNATCO

You don't have to fight Anna Navarra, you can kill her with a mine on Lebedev's jet when she's not even hostile, or use her killswitch at Unatco.

I think Gunther might have a killswitch too, I dunno. Been a while since I played that far in DX.

 

[Satori (original)]

I think Gunther might have a killswitch too, I dunno. Been a while since I played that far in DX.

He does but you have to tell Jaime to stay behind at UNATCO instead of going to Honk Kong to get it.

'Laputan Machine'
'I AM NOT A MACHI-'

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

"YEah we've got you know really extensive dialogue trees and gadgets and..."

Funny how they never showed ANY of those features in that entire interview.
Game looks like a 3rd person shooter with some conversations so far.

Because they'll be spending between now and October to implement them, bug test them and figure out how to market it in a way in an ARPG way that is consistent with the claims of the three JB influences?

/facepalm

 

[Dionysus]

Deus Ex however didn't have roleplaying part like solving something through the character interactions or even character interactions. It was just a collection of non-linear missions - but a good one at that.

It definitely had some importance in the character interactions. As has been mentioned, depending on your interaction with Reyes, you could get Gunther's kill switch, which allowed you to beat him with dialog.

Well actually we can bash even games like Fallout for that - supermutant base full of heavy gun wielding supermutants was anything but a map for stealth - yet you can still sneak through it undetected.
It was better however in that that it didn't have a respawn and a forced encounter with boss - which is another example of how "a"ction in aRPG ruins "RPG".

Mariposa wasn't as good as the cathedral, but it was still better than what I saw in Bloodlines. There were ample opportunities to use science and repair. You could essentially Trojan horse your way in when talking to Harry. You could disguise yourself with robes. The sneaking itself wasn't ton of fun, but it was acknowledged by the game (e.g., there was an alarm that you could avoid). Finally, you weren't locked in an inescapable room with the Lieutenant. You had a reasonable objective for a game that had a bunch of noncombat skills, which you could accomplish with a few of those noncombat skills. For example, you could steal a security card, use science, or blow up the computer with dynamite. OK, I'll admit that explosives is a bit of a tweener, but in this case you are not using the dynamite in combat.

And I don't think you are keying in on a problem with action RPGs, at least not if we define them as RPGs with RT combat.

In the same way we can talk about your comparison of Deus Ex to it - Deus Ex had forced combat too - like the Gunther battle which you can't avoid and must fight him to proceed - or the battle with that another chick from UNATCO.
Boss battles were always an unavoidable must in nearly every RPG (not speaking about aRPG) except a few ones.

No, in your final encounter with Gunther, you can use your skills/items/augs to lure him away from your objective. You aren't locked in a room with him. You can also beat him with dialog, as previously mentioned.

As for Bad Blood - that is probably the only example of forced combat besides boss battles.

I don't understand what you are trying to do here. This semantic game doesn't excuse pervasive 8-bit action game design. You can say that the thugs in Bad Blood are bosses too. I don't care. It's still shitty quest design for this sort of game.