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Decline New King's Quest game - MASSIVE DECLINE Everything is shit

pippin

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The problem was giving Sierra back to inexperienced hacks who wanted to prove something. It's the bane of the game industry it seems. Some things just need to die, and there was a reason why the Williams stepped out of the game. I have the feeling Roberta was too much of a visionary to work with the stuff she had at a given time. I mean, she and Ken spearheaded one of the most important companies of gaming's early history, always breaking new ground. But as Ken himself said, it became too big for them... or maybe their ideas were good but the tools they had were bad. I suspect they wanted a bit of the Diablo/Zelda pie with kq8, for instance.

In fact, I think it's worth re-evaluating early 3d and fmv games, especially because of that, since most of the times ideas were interesting but tech was just too limited.
 

felipepepe

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KQ8 was made to blend all the hip kool kids games at the time: Tomb Raider, Quake and Diablo.

While it was a fucking mess, the strategy worked, and the game actually made money and sold twice as much as Grim Fandango.

This must have been what made Roberta finally gave up - she probably knew that Grim Fandango was a better game overall, but people didn't cared and only wanted to shoot stuff & have fancy 3D graphics. I this scenario, retiring and enjoying your money seems a lot better than trying to please this new gaming audience.
 

Taluntain

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Actually, retiring on a yacht, sailing around the world and enjoying your millions sounds a lot better than any real work no matter what...
 

Blackthorne

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Codex 2014 Divinity: Original Sin 2
This. I'd like to quit, and retire on a yacht with millions, but I gotta settle for $10 and a slice of pizza while sitting in a leaky canoe in the park. Goals.

In all seriousness, I think it's pretty clear now that Activision's plan for the Sierra label did not go as planned, and if/when KQ is finished, that'll probably be it from them on this.


Bt
 
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. I have the feeling Roberta was too much of a visionary to work with the stuff she had at a given time. I mean, she and Ken spearheaded one of the most important companies of gaming's early history, always breaking new ground. But as Ken himself said, it became too big for them... or maybe their ideas were good but the tools they had were bad.

Actually you're right on point here. KQ8 came out in 1998, but it was in pre-production as early as 1994. I have the earliest design notes from 1994-1995 (Roberta released them to the Strong Museum of Play). The 1994-1996 versions of KQ8 are about 10x larger than the final game is, much more experimental and in many ways even less of a traditional adventure game than the final product was. Think of Ultima Underworld or Daggerfall meets Doom meets the best elements of Zelda, on a huge LOTR sized scale in terms of plot elements and side quests and you have some idea of what she wanted. She wanted 7 full 3D worlds, each with a very different color palette/theme which went along with the plot (which was revised several times) and a world that was even more massive in size than Daggerfall but with fixed locations, not a randomized map. She wanted the protagonist to be able to climb, swim, and (with the use of magical spells) fly. She also toyed with the idea of an online multiplayer component wherein players would swap magical potions and tips etc. Many of the programmers told her her ideas were simply not possible given the technology of the time, and the KQ8 we ended up getting is a very condensed and abridged version of these ideas.

I suspect they wanted a bit of the Diablo/Zelda pie with kq8, for instance.

Zelda perhaps but KQ8 was put into production before Diablo likely was.

As far as Ken: He saw the writing on the wall with traditional adventure games and felt they needed some evolution or even a revolution in gameplay. Also, on the business end, he was burned out. Sierra was a huge multinational company and was very hard by the time he left to manage. It had over a dozen divisions at different locations all over the globe and Ken made a habit of visiting each studio every three months in a month long proccess to check on the progress of every game in development and work with the developers to find ways to make the game better. This as you can imagine was very exhausting; he was flying from Seattle to Boston to Oakhurst to Paris and other locations and then back to Seattle again. So by the time the CUC sharks came in, he thought he had a good deal in place which would protect Sierra's future and allow him to semi-retire, relinquishing his role as CEO and all the burdensome duties that came with it while working more as Sierra's head of R&D - Working directly with the developers to build games rather than with the accountants. CUC told him all he wanted to hear, and even put it in writing, but using loopholes, made sure none of what they promised came to pass. Also, by the time he left, the PC game industry was very different than the industry he had come up in. It wasn't a friendly rivalry between pioneers, but rather a cuthroat business of do or die - which wasn't really Ken's thing.

Also, he was (by gaming standards) an older guy - He was 42 in 1996. He wasn't into violent games and only signed Half-Life as a Sierra product reluctantly because of how successful Doom had been. He was, not to bash him, a bit out of touch with the mid to late 1990s generation of gaming. For example, he wanted to buy id Software in 1992 after the guys at id had sent a demo of Wolfenstein. He took them out to a fancy French restaurant in Seattle; Ken wearing a full dress suit, Romero & co wearing ripped jeans and t-shirts; the clash of cultures and generations could not have been more obvious. Ken offered them a multi-million dollar deal, which they were very close to considering. It fell through when they demanded $500k in cash upfront and Ken balked.
 
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KQ8 was made to blend all the hip kool kids games at the time: Tomb Raider, Quake and Diablo.

While it was a fucking mess, the strategy worked, and the game actually made money and sold twice as much as Grim Fandango.

This must have been what made Roberta finally gave up - she probably knew that Grim Fandango was a better game overall, but people didn't cared and only wanted to shoot stuff & have fancy 3D graphics. I this scenario, retiring and enjoying your money seems a lot better than trying to please this new gaming audience.

Actually she was pretty ahead of the curve. What depressed her were three things:

1) Due to developmental nonsense, these games came out earlier, beating her at her own game.
2) She had to cut KQ8 down HEAVILY due to technical limitations

3) She saw the PC consumer base had changed demographically in a rapid span of time from the more "patient" intellectual gamer who enjoyed solving puzzles, to being consumed by console gamers who wanted the console experience on PC. As she said in 1999:
"Back when I got started, which sounds like ancient history, back then the demographics of people who were into computer games, was totally different, in my opinion, than they are today. Back then, computers were more expensive, which made them more exclusive to people who were maybe at a certain income level, or education level. So the people that played computer games 15 years ago were that type of person. They probably didn't watch television as much, and the instant gratification era hadn't quite grown the way it has lately. I think in the last 5 or 6 years, the demographics have really changed, now this is my opinion, because computers are less expensive so more people can afford them. More "average" people now feel they should own one."
 

pippin

Guest
. I have the feeling Roberta was too much of a visionary to work with the stuff she had at a given time. I mean, she and Ken spearheaded one of the most important companies of gaming's early history, always breaking new ground. But as Ken himself said, it became too big for them... or maybe their ideas were good but the tools they had were bad.

Actually you're right on point here. KQ8 came out in 1998, but it was in pre-production as early as 1994. I have the earliest design notes from 1994-1995 (Roberta released them to the Strong Museum of Play). The 1994-1996 versions of KQ8 are about 10x larger than the final game is, much more experimental and in many ways even less of a traditional adventure game than the final product was. Think of Ultima Underworld or Daggerfall meets Doom meets the best elements of Zelda, on a huge LOTR sized scale in terms of plot elements and side quests and you have some idea of what she wanted. She wanted 7 full 3D worlds, each with a very different color palette/theme which went along with the plot (which was revised several times) and a world that was even more massive in size than Daggerfall but with fixed locations, not a randomized map. She wanted the protagonist to be able to climb, swim, and (with the use of magical spells) fly. She also toyed with the idea of an online multiplayer component wherein players would swap magical potions and tips etc. Many of the programmers told her her ideas were simply not possible given the technology of the time, and the KQ8 we ended up getting is a very condensed and abridged version of these ideas.

I suspect they wanted a bit of the Diablo/Zelda pie with kq8, for instance.

Zelda perhaps but KQ8 was put into production before Diablo likely was.

As far as Ken: He saw the writing on the wall with traditional adventure games and felt they needed some evolution or even a revolution in gameplay. Also, on the business end, he was burned out. Sierra was a huge multinational company and was very hard by the time he left to manage. It had over a dozen divisions at different locations all over the globe and Ken made a habit of visiting each studio every three months in a month long proccess to check on the progress of every game in development and work with the developers to find ways to make the game better. This as you can imagine was very exhausting; he was flying from Seattle to Boston to Oakhurst to Paris and other locations and then back to Seattle again. So by the time the CUC sharks came in, he thought he had a good deal in place which would protect Sierra's future and allow him to semi-retire, relinquishing his role as CEO and all the burdensome duties that came with it while working more as Sierra's head of R&D - Working directly with the developers to build games rather than with the accountants. CUC told him all he wanted to hear, and even put it in writing, but using loopholes, made sure none of what they promised came to pass. Also, by the time he left, the PC game industry was very different than the industry he had come up in. It wasn't a friendly rivalry between pioneers, but rather a cuthroat business of do or die - which wasn't really Ken's thing.

Also, he was (by gaming standards) an older guy - He was 42 in 1996. He wasn't into violent games and only signed Half-Life as a Sierra product reluctantly because of how successful Doom had been. He was, not to bash him, a bit out of touch with the mid to late 1990s generation of gaming. For example, he wanted to buy id Software in 1992 after the guys at id had sent a demo of Wolfenstein. He took them out to a fancy French restaurant in Seattle; Ken wearing a full dress suit, Romero & co wearing ripped jeans and t-shirts; the clash of cultures and generations could not have been more obvious. Ken offered them a multi-million dollar deal, which they were very close to considering. It fell through when they demanded $500k in cash upfront and Ken balked.

I knew the original kq8 was going to be dramatically different, but not that much. I mean, you make it sound as if she wanted to cram the five QfG games into one. That said, I wonder what she thinks of Bethesda and Ubisoft's games.

When it comes to Ken, well, I've always wondered if you really need to be into videogames to properly manage a videogame company. Part of that sounds like unnecessary romantificacion of one's hobby. Managerial language is pretty much the same no matter what kind of business you run, after all, you're supposed to be able to hire people who really know the stuff to cover that part for you. When that line of reasoning comes up I always keep coming back to this video:



It seems to me that Ken had a sense of ownership when it came to Sierra, like it was his daughter, so to speak. That's probably why he lost touch with everything along the way, and decided to call it quits. The generational gap was still there, id represented a brief moment of the 90s where devs actually mattered at least publicly, now it's all focused on the publishers, when a game is released you only see Bethesda,EA, Ubisoft,not names or faces. You could almost say some parts of the video game industry went back in time, which could explain why some old names are coming back, and not just because of Kickstarter. In the long run I think the effect of Kickstarter will be regarded as an extremely minor thing, since most studios are kind of proving that they don't really have what it takes to manage more than one project, hell, some of them were actually lucky to finish just one game. This only makes me wonder how chaotic pitch meeting used to be in the 80s and 90s.
 
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I knew the original kq8 was going to be dramatically different, but not that much. I mean, you make it sound as if she wanted to cram the five QfG games into one. That said, I wonder what she thinks of Bethesda and Ubisoft's games.

The original design notes read very much akin to QFG 1-5 mixed with the other elements I mentioned. Very expansive. Also, Roberta admitted in an interview that the interface of KQ8 was inspired by Daggerfall, so I imagined she liked that game. She also liked Anvil of Dawn.

It seems to me that Ken had a sense of ownership when it came to Sierra, like it was his daughter, so to speak. That's probably why he lost touch with everything along the way, and decided to call it quits. The generational gap was still there, id represented a brief moment of the 90s where devs actually mattered at least publicly, now it's all focused on the publishers, when a game is released you only see Bethesda,EA, Ubisoft,not names or faces. You could almost say some parts of the video game industry went back in time, which could explain why some old names are coming back, and not just because of Kickstarter. In the long run I think the effect of Kickstarter will be regarded as an extremely minor thing, since most studios are kind of proving that they don't really have what it takes to manage more than one project, hell, some of them were actually lucky to finish just one game. This only makes me wonder how chaotic pitch meeting used to be in the 80s and 90s.

Can you expand on the first part, what you mean exactly?a
 

pippin

Guest
Can you expand on the first part, what you mean exactly?a

I think Ken wanted to control Sierra on his own terms. That's why he traveled around the world just so he could check what they were doing. That's a bit too much imo, since you can (or at least you should) allow people to just work on their own. But since the business changed so much, instead of trying to adapt to the new terms he just gave up. It was a different time though, I think they could do better now with niche projects and everything, but they don't want to have anything to do with gaming now and I don't really blame them.
 
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Can you expand on the first part, what you mean exactly?a

I think Ken wanted to control Sierra on his own terms. That's why he traveled around the world just so he could check what they were doing. That's a bit too much imo, since you can (or at least you should) allow people to just work on their own. But since the business changed so much, instead of trying to adapt to the new terms he just gave up. It was a different time though, I think they could do better now with niche projects and everything, but they don't want to have anything to do with gaming now and I don't really blame them.

I see it partially that way, but also that it became exhausting trying to chase the hottest new trend. Sierra was the adventure game company in the early 1990s up until around 1994.
Around 1994 is when you see the PC industry start to change. 3D is on the way, Doom is massive, Myst is what's hot in adventure games...In response Ken/Sierra gobbled up a bunch of companies in almost every field of gaming or even just plain software there was and made several Myst clones. He would probably disagree, but I think part of Sierra's decline came from a lack of focus and thus a lack of a clear corporate identity by the mid 1990s. Who were they in 1996? They weren't a small Oakhurst studio full of Hippies that was the home of Larry Laffer, Roger Wilco and King Graham anymore, they were literally removed from their roots with the move to Seattle in 1994 - a totally different atmosphere - and had over 1,000 employees...And not all that many of their new products were creating as strong an imprint on the public. Games like Phantasmagoria or NASCAR or Lords of the Realm might've sold like hotcakes, but they weren't iconic. Games that could've been iconic new products - like Outpost - suffered from bugs due to the shareholders demanding a game be shipped by X or Y Holiday deadline. Half-Life was HUGE - But they were only the publisher.

Sierra lost that sense of "this is who we are", while at the same time suffered from being such a huge, publicly traded company. And I think, that loss of focus combined with the pressure is what ultimately led to Ken leaving and them later falling (combined with being run by literal crooks who broke the company's profitability after Ken left).
 

pippin

Guest
Yeah, I was watching some Metal Jesus vids and he basically said that, Sierra completely lost its identity in the mid 90s and started publishind just random crap, almost whatever they could find. And almost every game was extremely different from one another, which resented both its fanbase and their catalogue. Ironically, they ended up publishing Half Life because of that practice.
 
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Yeah, I was watching some Metal Jesus vids and he basically said that, Sierra completely lost its identity in the mid 90s and started publishind just random crap, almost whatever they could find. And almost every game was extremely different from one another, which resented both its fanbase and their catalogue. Ironically, they ended up publishing Half Life because of that practice.

They were publishing hunting, Print Artist, and Golf games in the mid 90s, alongside some cool sims, their adventure fare, and mainly forgettable (or at least insanely buggy) attempts at RPGs and action games. 1995 was still a great year for Sierra - Phantas, Shivers, SQ6, Torin's Passage, Gabriel Knight 2. 1996 is when the rot started to set in. You still had some really cool games like Leisure Suit Larry 7, Hunter Hunted and Light House and the rollout of The Realm Online....But 1996 was their last good year. I mean, outside of KQ8, Quest for Glory 5, Gabriel Knight 3 and Half-Life I don't recall them publishing anything of major note after 1996. They could've saved the company and reinvented it for the new millenium with their Babylon 5 and Lord of the Rings Online games, as both were HIGHLY anticipated, but Vivendi decided to axe them.

I mean here's a sampler of some games by Sierra from after 1996:
124965-front-page-sports-trophy-bass-2-windows-front-cover.jpg

B00006G2SI.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


13242-DriversEducation98.jpg

Yes, a Driver's Ed sim.
 

Jackalope

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Sooo, a bit of concept art for chapter 4. I guess the game's not dead yet. (I hope they do release all chapters, this is like watching a racing horse with a broken leg trying to crawl to the finish line. Do it, poor boy, I'm still rooting for ya!)

 
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Pretty cool that they kept Alex's design from 6 almost exactly. That was one of the qualms I had with The Silver Lining, where Alex was redesigned to look like an anime character.
img_normal.jpg
 

twincast

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Well, for what it's worth, I really like that you can clearly see a family resemblance.
 
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First chapter is free on steam.
If I like the first one, will I like others?
Second has lower ratings. 3rd positive ones.

If you like the first one, you should really like the third. The second is short and has a much different feel. The third is a more concise and focused version of the second chapter. I would go for both if you can.
 

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