Decline New King's Quest game - MASSIVE DECLINE Everything is shit

[Blackthorne]

Not even an epilogue could make this game good. It's done, and finished, and probably the last we'll see of official "Sierra" licensed games for quite some time. Activision even stopped putting out other titles on the Sierra label. (Like they did for Shiftlings, Geometry Wars, etc.)


Bt

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

Not even an epilogue could make this game good. It's done, and finished, and probably the last we'll see of official "Sierra" licensed games for quite some time. Activision even stopped putting out other titles on the Sierra label. (Like they did for Shiftlings, Geometry Wars, etc.)


Bt

They had one job.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

Not even an epilogue could make this game good. It's done, and finished, and probably the last we'll see of official "Sierra" licensed games for quite some time. Activision even stopped putting out other titles on the Sierra label. (Like they did for Shiftlings, Geometry Wars, etc.)


Bt

If you had to do a "postmortem" or autopsy of sorts on the new KQ, what would you say were the chief reasons for its failure? I ask not only you, but Jackalope as well, as both of you guys seem to not only have a way with words - and come off much more eloquent than I do - but also seem to really understand the original games and what made them special from not only a player's perspective, but from a design perspective - Whereas I myself only understand them as a player. I'm truly curious to hear a postmortem sort of breakdown as to why it failed, because, it seems to have spectacularly failed in the worst way any product in any media can fail: It just isn't memorable. It's not horrible. It's not great. It's just there. KQ: Mask of Eternity had its flaws, but IMO made for a more memorable experience. But I'm curious to hear your views, Jackalope's and the other guys here who first (correctly) predicted this game's failure - if you could give real depth to your views about it, it'd make for a wonderful read. All over the Sierra fan groups on Facebook, a lot of the fans are heaping praise on it, and you have sites like Destructoid giving each chapter no less than an 8/10. So I'd love to hear a postmortem which really illustrates the other side of the coin.

 

[Blackthorne]

I don't care enough to do a post-mortem. It was lacking, and honestly, that's that. I don't care why it failed, it just did. Such is life. C'est la vie.


Bt

 

[Jackalope]

It's an interesting idea, figuring out why and how this game failed. But I really don't have the drive to do so at this point. The game is what the game is, for better or worse. It doesn't lessen my love for King's Quest. It's not the first property some big guy decided to reboot for a quick buck, and sadly it won't be the last.

 

[HoboForEternity]

this has all the red flags all over it.

who eally expect it will be good huh?

published by activision, episodic, cinematic, etc.

 

[felipepepe]

If I were to pick one big reason, it would be how they approached story & puzzles.

Old KQ games had puzzles, and a story woven around them - so you had interesting & crazy stuff you had to solve, and the story would be told by memorable actions, like a fairy tale. It was fast-moving, and full of moments like being eaten by a whale, riding dolphins, going to hell, becoming a troll, etc...

Nu-KQ does the opposite. They sat down, wrote the story they wanted to tell, with all the jokes, cutscenes, etc... then added puzzles along the way "because it's a game". Everything is slow, overly explained and telegraphed. And instead of magical twists, you'll likely just get some lame slapstick comedy (often while doing a QTE), for that's what the devs like. There's ZERO sense of wonder.

Paraphrasing Warren Spector, Nu-KQ is a game about how clever the developers and writers think they are. You're not playing your story, you're playing to unlock the next bit of their story.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

If I were to pick one big reason, it would be how they approached story & puzzles.

Old KQ games had puzzles, and a story woven around them - so you had interesting & crazy stuff you had to solve, and the story would be told by memorable actions, like a fairy tale. It was fast-moving, and full of moments like being eaten by a whale, riding dolphins, going to hell, becoming a troll, etc...

Nu-KQ does the opposite. They sat down, wrote the story they wanted to tell, with all the jokes, cutscenes, etc... then added puzzles along the way "because it's a game". Everything is slow, overly explained and telegraphed. And instead of magical twists, you'll likely just get some lame slapstick comedy (often while doing a QTE), for that's what the devs like. There's ZERO sense of wonder.

Paraphrasing Warren Spector, Nu-KQ is a game about how clever the developers and writers think they are. You're not playing your story, you're playing to unlock the next bit of their story.

I would also add where I think this game most failed:
1) Music. This cannot be understated. Music was an integral part of not only the KQ experience, but also of the Sierra Adventure Game experience in general. Every KQ/Sierra game was divided up into scenes, and each scene had its own little soundtrack. This had the effect of helping give each individual scene it's own unique identity and atmosphere; it helped the scene to really come alive and evoke a reaction. Consider for example a scene as simple as being atop the Oak Tree in KQ1 SCI. A wistful, gentle melodic theme plays just for this simple, short scene; it allows it to be much more than it is. It gives that individual scene character. KQ8 even did this - every area had its own unique score in and of itself, which lended to each area its own feel. Music was almost a secondary character in these games.

In the new game, music acts as a background element - an ambient thing. Nothing more than that - just background noise. This not only helps to make the game deviate from the previous entries in a stylistic way, but also harms gameplay: Walking from scene to scene of endless forest in Daventry would've been greatly helped if each scene had its own little theme - it'd make the back-tracking much more enjoyable.

2) A Lack of Fairy Tales. The very heart of KQ was mixing and matching elements of fairy tales, sometimes simply having a character of fable or myth in a scene; sometimes having your protagonist actually act out a fairy tale in whole. In this game, fairy tales are treated as being nothing more than exaggerated stories. There are goblins, yes, and trolls - but the idea of fairy tales is sort of parodied within the game. There are no magical moments born from fancy as you yourself said. Also, the game deviated from the protagonist(s) being your standard fairy tale characters (very stock, and yet also, relatable because they were so open-ended) to having personalities. This takes agency away from the player and divorces the player from the protagonist. Graham didn't have much of a personality per se; you were Graham. In this game, Graham was...a spaz.

3) The Goofy Tone. KQ was never truly a serious series. But its humor was largely mature and tongue in cheek. This game strove for a Monkey Island-esque style of humor, which doesn't suit the series. It's a tone too goofy for adults and yet too adult for adults. Also, it attempts to interject Tumblr and internet and pop culture references which is not something the series was ever about.

That's all for now...More later.

 

[Blackthorne]

If I were to pick one big reason, it would be how they approached story & puzzles.

Old KQ games had puzzles, and a story woven around them - so you had interesting & crazy stuff you had to solve, and the story would be told by memorable actions, like a fairy tale. It was fast-moving, and full of moments like being eaten by a whale, riding dolphins, going to hell, becoming a troll, etc...

Nu-KQ does the opposite. They sat down, wrote the story they wanted to tell, with all the jokes, cutscenes, etc... then added puzzles along the way "because it's a game". Everything is slow, overly explained and telegraphed. And instead of magical twists, you'll likely just get some lame slapstick comedy (often while doing a QTE), for that's what the devs like. There's ZERO sense of wonder.

Paraphrasing Warren Spector, Nu-KQ is a game about how clever the developers and writers think they are. You're not playing your story, you're playing to unlock the next bit of their story.

This. I could not say it any better than you; the puzzles in this game had little to do with the story at all - by the end, the friggin' puzzles were just obstacles that got in the way of the cut-scenes!

Bt

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

I've had a certain level of self doubt with this game all along:
I mean, it does have a following it seems. Younger people do seem to like it. Are we perhaps just bitter curmudgeons?

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

This. I could not say it any better than you; the puzzles in this game had little to do with the story at all - by the end, the friggin' puzzles were just obstacles that got in the way of the cut-scenes!

Bt

True to an extent but weren't the puzzles in KQ games (except for KQ3 and KQ6, really) kind of arbitrary? Like, they weren't so much to do with the story so much as, at times, filler just to keep the story moving?

 

[felipepepe]

True to an extent but weren't the puzzles in KQ games (except for KQ3 and KQ6, really) kind of arbitrary? Like, they weren't so much to do with the story so much as, at times, filler just to keep the story moving?

KQ 1 you find a dragon guarding the mirror, throw a bucket of water on it, putting out his fire and making him leave embarrassed. That's the story - "I put out the dragon's fire and grabbed the magic mirror!" - and it takes like 10 seconds.

Nu-KQ 1 has a dull lever puzzle for you to solve, which leads to a cutscenes were Graham gets the mirror, the dragon chases him, he escapes, fires an arrow into the levers, upon which the game gives control back to the player so he can do some platforming. You, the player, just do basic lever & platforming - the "real adventure" was done via cutscene, while you just watched.

And it gets even worse later - Chapter 4 is literally "CUTSCENE-> SLIDING PUZZLE -> CUTSCENE"

 

[Jackalope]

I recall a video when someone explained why NewKing's Quest fails at giving the player agency. They used an example of the first time you meet the merchant in episode one... The player just stumbles there and has to just sit and endure a long cutscene. It's the bane of modern games... Everything needs to be cinematic (whitch boils down to cutscenes and QTEs)...

You do get a couple of choices, but in the end those choises never have real consiquences. It doesn't matter what princess you pick, or what wheel you give to the merchant... Even the big dragon choice at the beggining never comes back to bite you in the ass. They are just cosmetic choices that ultimately don't change anything. There's no way to save Isobella. At the end of chapter 3 you just kinda become friends with Hagatha. In the begining of chapter 4 you just jump 16 years - why can't you decide how he rules in those years. Maybe he goes to search for Alexander and the kingdom ends up a giant mess. Maybe he decides to stay and be a good king, so when Alexander comes back things are real tense. Even the big ending in chapter 5 is set in stone, it's just a big cinematic and all the puzzles are basically padding... The idea that these are Graham's stories means you as a player should be able to explore different variants, diferent versions of those tales. That would have been cool. Give the player more freedom on the story. You want to mess with the canon? Sure, but don't make it mandatory, make it an alternative path the player can take if he wants.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

To play Devil's Advocate...The cinematic thing seems to be what people want from adventure games today. Compare the sales of a TT game to those of an old school 90s style adventure game, for example...If the public really wanted that kind of adventure game they'd be paying for it. The market ultimately dictates what kind of games are made, and when it comes to adventure games, the market consistently picks TT.

 

[felipepepe]

But TT games go all the way - they are basically interactive animated series with some player agency & choices. It's like watching Netflix and having some say in the plot every 5-10 min or so.

Nu-KQ did the worst possible thing - a half-assed compromise. It's not a TT game, fluid and full of choices (you lose a lot of time walking around & the dragon choice was discarded), yet neither an old-school adventure game (puzzles are dull, too many cutscenes, etc). They literally combined the worst aspect of the two styles.

It's like if I made a Nu-Wizardry with old-school grinding & shitty UI, but modern linear & dumb maps. HURRAY, an RPG for everyone! :D

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

So I just realized something after having watched The Princess Bride for the first time:
The entire game is a literally ripoff of that movie. It's not even a homage.
You have:

-A goofy, befuddled grandpa telling a story to his snarky granddaughter, who corrects him when he loses his place
-Larger than life characters
-Wallace Shawn as the main villain; the ending of the game involves a cup poisoned by Wallace Shawn.

And I see some elements of Tangled, Frozen, and Big Fish in there as well.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

Even the duels rip-off Princess Bride:
Duel of Speed = The fight against Montoya
Duel of Strength = the fight with Fezzik
Duel of Wits = The fight with Manny

 

[Great Deceiver]

No shit, Sherlock?

Crooked Bee referenced John Walker's early review of the game in July 2015:

"The story desperately owes everything to The Princess Bride, from the conceit of the tale being told by an elderly man to a grandchild, to the types of characters you meet, that a series of duels is central to the plot, the rather desperate crowbarring in of the name Buttercup, and incredibly, casting Wallace Shawn – then having a duel of wits in which dosed drinks are used. But it’s never so overt as a tribute – it always just feels like lazy copying."

You deserve a dumbfuck tag, honestly.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

Yeah. And I've noticed that the chapters of the game in which they weren't ripping off either the Princess Bride, Tangled, or Frozen, were basically short suckfests which were mostly puzzle driven (and not good puzzles either). I just didn't see it as it was happening. These people utterly lack creativity. Even if you ignore the blatant tonal differences with the original games, or their bizarre attempt to reboot the games without actually rebooting them, there's little there that stands out as unique (even without the KQ label). I could probably show say, KQ4 to someone and they'd find something impressive about it despite its age and simplicity. This game really doesn't have a spirit or identity of its own.

 

[Korgoth of Barbaria]

I've come to a final analysis of this game. It's not BAD. It's not GREAT. It's simply okay. It's not really memorable at all. That's the biggest sin of the game. Even some of the bad design moments of the original games were memorable (IE, who could forget the whale tongue puzzle in KQIV?); Even the cheesy moments of the earlier entries were endearing (IE, "A POISONOUS SNAKE!" or "TIS BEYOND MY REACH!") in a way that rendered the game(s) memorable. Even the more contested entries in the original series - KQ7 and KQ8 - had some really memorable, standout moments (for example, Falderal in KQ7; Walking in on a Spriggan who's taking a shit while reading the newspaper before killing said Spriggan in KQ8). This game...the most memorable moments are those that rely on the original games for help, or that rely on popular memes and films (All the Princess Bride cribbing).

For as "unoriginal" as the old KQ games may have been in that they offered up a standard fantasy landscape, the reason King's Quest is so fondly remembered is because it was able to transcend its lack of originality by offering up either interesting takes on classical legends, or offering up truly interesting brand new characters who stood out for this or that reason (Cedric, Jollo, Mordack). While some of the games lambasted pop culture in the form of gags (The Batmobile in KQ2), the games operated within their own quirky world independent of the real world.

The new game is both a reboot and yet slavishly tied to the original games. It fails as a reboot because it alters canon in a way many original fans find displeasing; and it turns off new fans because it offers too many injokes that only longtime fans would get.

The best idea would've been to basically remake and expand upon KQ1 and start the series over from scratch. Take the most basic story elements of KQ1, and greatly expand the story and modernize the graphics and gameplay elements, while keeping the magic.

 

[Parsifarka]

Just let it die already.

 

[Blackthorne]

Yep. This thing, and "new" Sierra, are deader than a door nail. This wasn't just a bellyflop, it was an unwinnable death march into oblivion. Que sera.


Bt

 

[Great Deceiver]

Also, hipsters.

 

[Sizzle]

The Adventure Gamers review gives it a 4.5/5.

A brief excerpt: "...a panoply of diverse, creative challenges."

 

[Unkillable Cat]

The Adventure Gamers review gives it a 4.5/5.

A brief excerpt: "...a panoply of diverse, creative challenges."

Panoply (n): A group or collection that is impressive because it is so big or because it includes so many different kinds of people or things.