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New Vegas review from NMA, too good to be true???

Shannow

Waster of Time
Joined
Sep 15, 2006
Messages
6,386
Location
Finnegan's Wake
Topher said:
If perception had a major impact on my characters chance to hit I would agree but it doesn't as that is left primarily to the guns skill witch is only slightly modified by perception and to be quite clear I should point out that I noticed a this strange inability to hit while using Vats with my main character who had a perception of 6 and a guns skill of 100. The way Vats calculates my chance to hit seems a bit broken to me and a friend of mine has recently mentioned noticing quite the same thing. Another strange occurrence is that I will often have a %95 chance to hit limbs or the head while having only a moderate (%40-60) chance to hit the torso. My friend has also noticed this and it's perplexing to both of us. Why would I ever have a %95 chance to hit an enemies right arm but less then a %40 chance to hit anything else?
You need to make a clear distinction between VATS and RT. At the moment I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Playing a melee character I have no idea whether it works this way but I'd assume that chances for ranged attacks in VATS are strongly affected by perception.

Strange. I used Mentats and booze to get me through several skill checks.
Hmm. Perhaps it doesn't stack with Meeting People?
 

Topher

Cipher
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,860
Shannow said:
Topher said:
If perception had a major impact on my characters chance to hit I would agree but it doesn't as that is left primarily to the guns skill witch is only slightly modified by perception and to be quite clear I should point out that I noticed a this strange inability to hit while using Vats with my main character who had a perception of 6 and a guns skill of 100. The way Vats calculates my chance to hit seems a bit broken to me and a friend of mine has recently mentioned noticing quite the same thing. Another strange occurrence is that I will often have a %95 chance to hit limbs or the head while having only a moderate (%40-60) chance to hit the torso. My friend has also noticed this and it's perplexing to both of us. Why would I ever have a %95 chance to hit an enemies right arm but less then a %40 chance to hit anything else?
You need to make a clear distinction between VATS and RT. At the moment I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Playing a melee character I have no idea whether it works this way but I'd assume that chances for ranged attacks in VATS are strongly affected by perception.

Strange. I used Mentats and booze to get me through several skill checks.
Hmm. Perhaps it doesn't stack with Meeting People?

I'm talking about entirely about Vats. As far as I can tell the only bonus to hit gained from perception is the indirect bonus gained from additonal skill point perception grants the guns. In other words perception itself has no direct effect on your chance to hits in Vats. Perception raises guns which in turn raises your chance to hit (it is very minor).

And yes. Bonuses don't stack.

I'd prefer a mod make number of companions depend on your CHA stat.

So would I.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,603
Vats is nigh useless in long range combat, unless you stack trigger discipline, commando and sniper you won't get any decent chance to hit. I tend to use vats in close range when there's multiple targets to kill fast.

When it comes to crippling attacks, I noticed radscorpions get significantly slower with crippled legs, and Cazadores get really easy once you shoot their legs off.

Overall though, it seems easiest to just snipe enemies with scoped weapons - the AI gets completely clueless if you're far enough. This way you can down a deathclaw with a varmint rifle, it's just a question of having 200 ammo. Not the most inspiring way to do it, but it's there.
 

hiver

Guest
ok, yeah crippled legs does slow them down. Just experimented on a rabid feral ghoul.
I dont have much chance to notice because veronica steamrolls over anything weaker then deathclaw in two seconds, or one-two hits with "pushy" power fist.
 

Eyeball

Arcane
Joined
Sep 3, 2010
Messages
2,541
Is anyone else amused by the references and send-ups of previous Bethesda games in-game?

The Westside militia guys will snarl "We're WATCHING you....stranger", clearly referring to the Dark Elf guards in Morrowind.

When talking to Yes-man, he jokingly suggests that maybe there's a giant war robot hidden in a bunker he directs you to, your response being somewhere on the lines of "but that's seriously retarded."

And of course, the "I'm looking for my attacker, middle-aged guy" thing that dominates the game up until you reach The Strip.

Somebody at Obsidian is clearly a fan.
 
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
3,520
Topher said:

Minor notes about SPECIAL stat balance:

Keep in mind that Agiliy only adds 3 AP per point and most weapon take from 20 AP or more for a single attack. It also doesn't improve AP regeneration, so in the end the difference between 1 and 10 Agility as far as VATS performance goes is quite minimal. Starting out with 4 attacks instead of 3 attacks doesn't matter much, if you are seriously relying on VATS (or slow motion) then all that really matters is AP regeneration rate which will always be the same. If it weren't for the fact that it increased move speed I would consider it a dump stat.

Endurance is what controls how many implants you can have. 8 END = +7 free stat points and +4 DT eventually. Its arguably the strongest stat in the game considering that every point you put into END up to 7 gives you a free point later.

hiver said:
Yeah, a good post.
For me,so far,the most annoying thing in combat is uselessness of making targeted limb shots and general lack of effect in any scored crippled effects that are totally retarded.

Sneak critical a deathclaw to the face, take off 30% of his health then watch him run at 30ft/s to me and rape my face. :x

Sneak critical a deathclaw to the leg, take off 10% of his health and watch him pitifully hobble at me slower then my walking speed.:smug:

Making enemies drop weapons and stuff isn't bad either, though it really only comes into play with enemies strong enough to survive more then 2 headshots, otherwise simply killing them is faster. I have taken out really strong super mutants with sub-40 melee skill and a cleaver just because I kept them stunlocked by crippling body parts.

Topher said:
If you mod it to allow unlimited party members, doesn't that pretty much equal god mode?

It does make the game considerably easier but I wasn't having much trouble before I got them and I enjoy having multiple party members. Though I limited myself to three during my first play through as those are the only ones I encountered.

TBH having any NPCs is god mode. I'm playing a game with no NPCs and am actually running out of stimpacks, doctor's bags, and ammo at times. My carrying capacity is a PITA to deal with though, so I just consoled in the two perks that help you carry more.
 

Topher

Cipher
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,860
TBH having any NPCs is god mode. I'm playing a game with no NPCs and am actually running out of stimpacks, doctor's bags, and ammo at times. My carrying capacity is a PITA to deal with though, so I just consoled in the two perks that help you carry more.

I'd certainly agree that having NPC's pretty much equates god mode but I really wasn't having any major trouble before I got NPC's. They made combat quicker but that's about it. I think is has a lot to do with my very cautions/sniper playing style. I never once used any stimpacks (I relied on food and whatnot) and I the only time I needed a doctor's bag was in Vault 35. Anyway, like I said I really like having a full party of NPC's, I miss the days of large parties, and the game is more fun of you simply let them die whenever they die. Several of my NPC's either left my party by choice of died and the ending slides reflected that.

Or hates them with a nigh Codexian fervor.

That's the impression I had.
 

bonescraper

Guest
I just had the wierdest glitch ever. I've loaded the game in the Ultra-Luxe casino, when suddenly a wild nightkin appeared, attacking everyone but me. I think it was the "Wind Brahmin Herder", 'cause earlier i was looking for him at his farm to no avail. Fucker must have followed me to Vegas :lol:
 

Topher

Cipher
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,860
bonescraper said:
I just had the wierdest glitch ever. I've loaded the game in the Ultra-Luxe casino, when suddenly a wild nightkin appeared, attacking everyone but me. I think it was the "Wind Brahmin Herder", 'cause earlier i was looking for him at his farm to no avail. Fucker must have followed me to Vegas :lol:

I wore a mask and used my chainsaw to serial murder everyone in the Ultra-Lux but that wasn't a glitch.
 
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
11,313
Location
SPAAAAAAAAAACE...
Project: Eternity
One time when I was in the lower level of the Lucky 38 a quest NPC from a different casino came out of the elevator and walked out the front door making some nondescript comment about Vegas. Was pretty WTF.
 

Admiral jimbob

gay as all hell
Joined
Sep 29, 2009
Messages
9,225
Location
truck stops and toilet stalls
Wasteland 2
Just started playing. Impressions so far:

god dammit I will never get used to this fucking consolised UI bullshit I miss hotkeys

stop this tutorial shit I just want to move on with the fun parts but I know if I select "skip tutorial" I will inevitably miss out on loot/experience

why does this run worse than FO3 did anyway

Other than that, it's a better start than FO3's at least, and I was prepared for a horrible beginning. I'll stick it out.
 

Topher

Cipher
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,860
POOPOO MCBUMFACE said:
Just started playing. Impressions so far:

god dammit I will never get used to this fucking consolised UI bullshit I miss hotkeys

stop this tutorial shit I just want to move on with the fun parts but I know if I select "skip tutorial" I will inevitably miss out on loot/experience

why does this run worse than FO3 did anyway

Other than that, it's a better start than FO3's at least, and I was prepared for a horrible beginning. I'll stick it out.

I like the tutorial it get's me a Varmint Rifle/Ammo and let's me kill some Gecko's
 

RatFink

Educated
Joined
Jan 28, 2010
Messages
596
POOPOO MCBUMFACE said:
why does this run worse than FO3 did anyway

i guess you could try the dll fix!
it helped me from unplayable as soon as an npc entered the screen to works just fine :)
 

Topher

Cipher
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
1,860
What follows amounts to little more than a rough draft of ideas and while it hardly breaks any new ground it is an earnest submission covering some of my thoughts on matters concerning both general game design and New Vegas. (Truth be told this more recent article/dissertation sags a bit in the middle. My apologies.)

Hacking, Lock-picking and how Deus Ex did it better.

In New Vegas hacking/lock-picking is simply a matter of having both sufficient character skill and a personal aptitude for the required mini-game. On the side of character skill it is only a matter of investment in the related skill (either lock-picking or hacking for this discussion). I don’t take issue with the fact that there are only four various levels of locked-containers I take issue with the fact that this approach does not take full advantage of the 1-100 scale used by New Vegas to determine skill levels. Morrowind for instance took advantage of having such a large range of possible skill levels by including a large range of corresponding locks levels (anywhere between 5-100 with 10,15,30,50,60,80 and 100 being most common). Why then does New Vegas give us access to 100 varying levels of skill and only four levels of locked-containers? On the side of player aptitude is the fact that the mini-game for both lock-picking and hacking are both frightfully easy and tedious (especially in regard to the hacking mini-game) and if things do go sour for some reason you can simply exit and try again without drawback. I will say that the mini-game from Oblivion is actually an improvement not because the mini-game itself is better (which it is not) but because it requires less skill investment on the part of the player (though Oblivion took this way too far). If in New Vegas I want my character to be able to pick locks or hack terminals I am required to make a rather sizeable skill investment and nothing more is asked of me besides a quick and easy aptitude check. At first it is difficult to take issue with that but let me remind you of a better system from days gone by.

In Deus Ex hacking and lock-picking was had five skill levels: untrained, trained, skilled, expert and agent (if memory serves) which is essentially the same as in New Vegas though without the useless clutter between skill levels. Dues Ex also had locks/terminals of corresponding difficulty levels, again quite like New Vegas, but in Deus Ex the tools required for lock-picking/hacking (picks and muli-tools respectfully) were treated like a resource all to their own and that is what made the system work. As the difficulty level of locks moved farther away from the players skill level a greater and greater number of multi-tools or lock-picks became required. As a player I could choose to put only one extra point in the hacking skill and still be able to hack any terminal in the game provided I had a sufficient number of multi-tools; eventually it would take the low skill character 5+ tools to bypass a terminal. This allowed players to hoard tools and only use them for the most important tasks. It left the option to bypass terminals open to the player and made the use of that skill (for a low skill character) less about actual skill level and more about management of the tools as a resource and because the tools and picks were not common enough to allow a character with low skill to simply open/bypass every obstacle they came across it became important for that player to decide when he would be best served to use up the tools he had been saving.

What I’m proposing is that games treat the actual tools needed to pick-lock and hack terminals as a resource. Why insist that every character be required to invest in these two skills or loose access to the mechanics all together. Let players who make a minimal skill investment still be able to occasionally pick a lock or hack a computer so long as they’ve been diligently managing their quantity of tools. Of course this assumes that the tools are both sufficiently uncommon and that there are enough uses for these skills in the game to make choosing the best time to use them an interesting choice. On a related note it should be mentioned that Deus Ex also allowed players to bypass lock doors and often times security systems (such as laser fields, cameras and security turrets) with the use of explosives both in the form of grenades or a rocket launcher. Why then force the player down one single path to success without allowing for alternative routes? Without getting too far off subject and into too much detail about Deus Ex I will say simply that lock-picking/hacking skills and there implementation in regards to both mechanics and gameplay should be looked at very closely by developers before working on any system of their own design.

On quest design and skill checks.

It is quite clear that New Vegas is a great leap forward from its predecessor in regards to skill checks but where skill checks can be well implemented they can also be taken too far. New Vegas often offers a non-combat path through quests in the form of speech checks or other skill/stat checks but these checks are too often used as a complete alternative allowing players to bypass content instead of as an augmenting factor. What I mean to say is that skills checks could be used to alter a characters path through a quest instead of simply allowing a character to bypass a quest. For example:

If I take a quest to stop a group of bank robbers who are armed and have taken hostages two situations are bound to arise 1) I can walk in the front door and use my combat skills to kill the robbers. 2) I can walk in the front door and pass a speech check convincing all the robbers to simply give up and go home.

Instead why not make it so that a player with a moderate speech skill in simply able to convince one of the three robbers to give himself up? Why does it all too often seem to be all or nothing when there are so many gradients of possibility in between? Why rely so heavily on speech when there are so many other skills available? Why not give a player with a high explosives skill an opportunity to disarm a trap on the front door making the combat route much easier? Why not let a player versed in stealth approach through the locked rear door and take up a better position before confronting the robbers? Why not let speech come into play before you even enter the bank? Players could learn about one of the robber’s personal motives, break into his home and use the information gained to help him persuade that robber to turn himself in when the inevitable confrontation arises.

I will be frank in admitting that New Vegas handles skill checks fairly well in several quests but it never hurts to push for even more and so I’m letting it be known that this is the direction quest design needs to head. In the future quests should take skill checks, exploration and a clever use of the surrounding environment all into account. (Deus Ex often handled that last part extremely well).
Of course there are numerous examples that can be cited showing the ways in which New Vegas has poorly implemented skills checks but was glad to see they are the exception rather than the rule and I was also quite pleased to see that New Vegas make far greater use of over a range of skill checks then it’s predecessor and that is certainly a step in the right direction.

Encounter Design and why games stopped being 2D in the first place.

With the advent of 3D gaming the designer needs to begin to design content while keeping three-dimensional spaces in mind. Why then do all the enemies in New Vegas appear at roughly the same elevation? Strangely enough I actually think that Fallout 3 handled encounter design in a 3D space much better the New Vegas has. In Fallout 3 it was very common to engage enemies that were positioned several floors above or below my character, this was particularly prevalent in the ruins of outdoor building and in the subway tunnels. Enemies would fire down at me from the window of a second story building as I worked my way up to them or would notice my character while patrolling the upper levels of an underground subway platform. Yet all of this has been conspicuously absent during my time with New Vegas and I’m left wondering why. There are still outdoor ruins but I have yet to see any enemies in the upper levels of these even though they are surrounding the building at ground level and there are still plenty indoor factories and vaults with a network of catwalks for enemies to take advantage of. So why then does it seem like the designers approached encounter design with a two-dimensional frame of mind? Perhaps it all stems from Obsidian’s lack of familiarity with fully 3D environments? After all New Vegas is the first time they have worked in a fully realized 3D space (at least to my knowledge) and because of this I am willing to chalk it is as understandable oversight. Of course there are times when New Vegas remembers to take advantage of its extra dimension but these instances are the exception rather than the rule and in the future I would beg developers to remember why games gravitated to 3D in the first place and to be sure to take full advantage of that extra dimension when working on any aspect of game design. Remember that not everybody out there thinks that every game has to be 3D but if you choose to design a 3D game be sure to take advantage of all the extra possibilities it offers, otherwise what was the point in the first place.
 

roll-a-die

Magister
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
3,131
Topher said:
What follows amounts to little more than a rough draft of ideas and while it hardly breaks any new ground it is an earnest submission covering some of my thoughts on matters concerning both general game design and New Vegas. (Truth be told this more recent article/dissertation sags a bit in the middle. My apologies.)

Hacking, Lock-picking and how Deus Ex did it better.

In New Vegas hacking/lock-picking is simply a matter of having both sufficient character skill and a personal aptitude for the required mini-game. On the side of character skill it is only a matter of investment in the related skill (either lock-picking or hacking for this discussion). I don’t take issue with the fact that there are only four various levels of locked-containers I take issue with the fact that this approach does not take full advantage of the 1-100 scale used by New Vegas to determine skill levels. Morrowind for instance took advantage of having such a large range of possible skill levels by including a large range of corresponding locks levels (anywhere between 5-100 with 10,15,30,50,60,80 and 100 being most common). Why then does New Vegas give us access to 100 varying levels of skill and only four levels of locked-containers? On the side of player aptitude is the fact that the mini-game for both lock-picking and hacking are both frightfully easy and tedious (especially in regard to the hacking mini-game) and if things do go sour for some reason you can simply exit and try again without drawback. I will say that the mini-game from Oblivion is actually an improvement not because the mini-game itself is better (which it is not) but because it requires less skill investment on the part of the player (though Oblivion took this way too far). If in New Vegas I want my character to be able to pick locks or hack terminals I am required to make a rather sizeable skill investment and nothing more is asked of me besides a quick and easy aptitude check. At first it is difficult to take issue with that but let me remind you of a better system from days gone by.

In Deus Ex hacking and lock-picking was had five skill levels: untrained, trained, skilled, expert and agent (if memory serves) which is essentially the same as in New Vegas though without the useless clutter between skill levels. Dues Ex also had locks/terminals of corresponding difficulty levels, again quite like New Vegas, but in Deus Ex the tools required for lock-picking/hacking (picks and muli-tools respectfully) were treated like a resource all to their own and that is what made the system work. As the difficulty level of locks moved farther away from the players skill level a greater and greater number of multi-tools or lock-picks became required. As a player I could choose to put only one extra point in the hacking skill and still be able to hack any terminal in the game provided I had a sufficient number of multi-tools; eventually it would take the low skill character 5+ tools to bypass a terminal. This allowed players to hoard tools and only use them for the most important tasks. It left the option to bypass terminals open to the player and made the use of that skill (for a low skill character) less about actual skill level and more about management of the tools as a resource and because the tools and picks were not common enough to allow a character with low skill to simply open/bypass every obstacle they came across it became important for that player to decide when he would be best served to use up the tools he had been saving.

What I’m proposing is that games treat the actual tools needed to pick-lock and hack terminals as a resource. Why insist that every character be required to invest in these two skills or loose access to the mechanics all together. Let players who make a minimal skill investment still be able to occasionally pick a lock or hack a computer so long as they’ve been diligently managing their quantity of tools. Of course this assumes that the tools are both sufficiently uncommon and that there are enough uses for these skills in the game to make choosing the best time to use them an interesting choice. On a related note it should be mentioned that Deus Ex also allowed players to bypass lock doors and often times security systems (such as laser fields, cameras and security turrets) with the use of explosives both in the form of grenades or a rocket launcher. Why then force the player down one single path to success without allowing for alternative routes? Without getting too far off subject and into too much detail about Deus Ex I will say simply that lock-picking/hacking skills and there implementation in regards to both mechanics and gameplay should be looked at very closely by developers before working on any system of their own design.

On quest design and skill checks.

It is quite clear that New Vegas is a great leap forward from its predecessor in regards to skill checks but where skill checks can be well implemented they can also be taken too far. New Vegas often offers a non-combat path through quests in the form of speech checks or other skill/stat checks but these checks are too often used as a complete alternative allowing players to bypass content instead of as an augmenting factor. What I mean to say is that skills checks could be used to alter a characters path through a quest instead of simply allowing a character to bypass a quest. For example:

If I take a quest to stop a group of bank robbers who are armed and have taken hostages two situations are bound to arise 1) I can walk in the front door and use my combat skills to kill the robbers. 2) I can walk in the front door and pass a speech check convincing all the robbers to simply give up and go home.

Instead why not make it so that a player with a moderate speech skill in simply able to convince one of the three robbers to give himself up? Why does it all too often seem to be all or nothing when there are so many gradients of possibility in between? Why rely so heavily on speech when there are so many other skills available? Why not give a player with a high explosives skill an opportunity to disarm a trap on the front door making the combat route much easier? Why not let a player versed in stealth approach through the locked rear door and take up a better position before confronting the robbers? Why not let speech come into play before you even enter the bank? Players could learn about one of the robber’s personal motives, break into his home and use the information gained to help him persuade that robber to turn himself in when the inevitable confrontation arises.

I will be frank in admitting that New Vegas handles skill checks fairly well in several quests but it never hurts to push for even more and so I’m letting it be known that this is the direction quest design needs to head. In the future quests should take skill checks, exploration and a clever use of the surrounding environment all into account. (Deus Ex often handled that last part extremely well).
Of course there are numerous examples that can be cited showing the ways in which New Vegas has poorly implemented skills checks but was glad to see they are the exception rather than the rule and I was also quite pleased to see that New Vegas make far greater use of over a range of skill checks then it’s predecessor and that is certainly a step in the right direction.

Encounter Design and why games stopped being 2D in the first place.

With the advent of 3D gaming the designer needs to begin to design content while keeping three-dimensional spaces in mind. Why then do all the enemies in New Vegas appear at roughly the same elevation? Strangely enough I actually think that Fallout 3 handled encounter design in a 3D space much better the New Vegas has. In Fallout 3 it was very common to engage enemies that were positioned several floors above or below my character, this was particularly prevalent in the ruins of outdoor building and in the subway tunnels. Enemies would fire down at me from the window of a second story building as I worked my way up to them or would notice my character while patrolling the upper levels of an underground subway platform. Yet all of this has been conspicuously absent during my time with New Vegas and I’m left wondering why. There are still outdoor ruins but I have yet to see any enemies in the upper levels of these even though they are surrounding the building at ground level and there are still plenty indoor factories and vaults with a network of catwalks for enemies to take advantage of. So why then does it seem like the designers approached encounter design with a two-dimensional frame of mind? Perhaps it all stems from Obsidian’s lack of familiarity with fully 3D environments? After all New Vegas is the first time they have worked in a fully realized 3D space (at least to my knowledge) and because of this I am willing to chalk it is as understandable oversight. Of course there are times when New Vegas remembers to take advantage of its extra dimension but these instances are the exception rather than the rule and in the future I would beg developers to remember why games gravitated to 3D in the first place and to be sure to take full advantage of that extra dimension when working on any aspect of game design. Remember that not everybody out there thinks that every game has to be 3D but if you choose to design a 3D game be sure to take advantage of all the extra possibilities it offers, otherwise what was the point in the first place.
Very fucking good my friend. I agree with all of this.
 

Black

Arcane
Joined
May 8, 2007
Messages
1,873,127
roll-a-die said:
Topher said:
What follows amounts to little more than a rough draft of ideas and while it hardly breaks any new ground it is an earnest submission covering some of my thoughts on matters concerning both general game design and New Vegas. (Truth be told this more recent article/dissertation sags a bit in the middle. My apologies.)

Hacking, Lock-picking and how Deus Ex did it better.

In New Vegas hacking/lock-picking is simply a matter of having both sufficient character skill and a personal aptitude for the required mini-game. On the side of character skill it is only a matter of investment in the related skill (either lock-picking or hacking for this discussion). I don’t take issue with the fact that there are only four various levels of locked-containers I take issue with the fact that this approach does not take full advantage of the 1-100 scale used by New Vegas to determine skill levels. Morrowind for instance took advantage of having such a large range of possible skill levels by including a large range of corresponding locks levels (anywhere between 5-100 with 10,15,30,50,60,80 and 100 being most common). Why then does New Vegas give us access to 100 varying levels of skill and only four levels of locked-containers? On the side of player aptitude is the fact that the mini-game for both lock-picking and hacking are both frightfully easy and tedious (especially in regard to the hacking mini-game) and if things do go sour for some reason you can simply exit and try again without drawback. I will say that the mini-game from Oblivion is actually an improvement not because the mini-game itself is better (which it is not) but because it requires less skill investment on the part of the player (though Oblivion took this way too far). If in New Vegas I want my character to be able to pick locks or hack terminals I am required to make a rather sizeable skill investment and nothing more is asked of me besides a quick and easy aptitude check. At first it is difficult to take issue with that but let me remind you of a better system from days gone by.

In Deus Ex hacking and lock-picking was had five skill levels: untrained, trained, skilled, expert and agent (if memory serves) which is essentially the same as in New Vegas though without the useless clutter between skill levels. Dues Ex also had locks/terminals of corresponding difficulty levels, again quite like New Vegas, but in Deus Ex the tools required for lock-picking/hacking (picks and muli-tools respectfully) were treated like a resource all to their own and that is what made the system work. As the difficulty level of locks moved farther away from the players skill level a greater and greater number of multi-tools or lock-picks became required. As a player I could choose to put only one extra point in the hacking skill and still be able to hack any terminal in the game provided I had a sufficient number of multi-tools; eventually it would take the low skill character 5+ tools to bypass a terminal. This allowed players to hoard tools and only use them for the most important tasks. It left the option to bypass terminals open to the player and made the use of that skill (for a low skill character) less about actual skill level and more about management of the tools as a resource and because the tools and picks were not common enough to allow a character with low skill to simply open/bypass every obstacle they came across it became important for that player to decide when he would be best served to use up the tools he had been saving.

What I’m proposing is that games treat the actual tools needed to pick-lock and hack terminals as a resource. Why insist that every character be required to invest in these two skills or loose access to the mechanics all together. Let players who make a minimal skill investment still be able to occasionally pick a lock or hack a computer so long as they’ve been diligently managing their quantity of tools. Of course this assumes that the tools are both sufficiently uncommon and that there are enough uses for these skills in the game to make choosing the best time to use them an interesting choice. On a related note it should be mentioned that Deus Ex also allowed players to bypass lock doors and often times security systems (such as laser fields, cameras and security turrets) with the use of explosives both in the form of grenades or a rocket launcher. Why then force the player down one single path to success without allowing for alternative routes? Without getting too far off subject and into too much detail about Deus Ex I will say simply that lock-picking/hacking skills and there implementation in regards to both mechanics and gameplay should be looked at very closely by developers before working on any system of their own design.

On quest design and skill checks.

It is quite clear that New Vegas is a great leap forward from its predecessor in regards to skill checks but where skill checks can be well implemented they can also be taken too far. New Vegas often offers a non-combat path through quests in the form of speech checks or other skill/stat checks but these checks are too often used as a complete alternative allowing players to bypass content instead of as an augmenting factor. What I mean to say is that skills checks could be used to alter a characters path through a quest instead of simply allowing a character to bypass a quest. For example:

If I take a quest to stop a group of bank robbers who are armed and have taken hostages two situations are bound to arise 1) I can walk in the front door and use my combat skills to kill the robbers. 2) I can walk in the front door and pass a speech check convincing all the robbers to simply give up and go home.

Instead why not make it so that a player with a moderate speech skill in simply able to convince one of the three robbers to give himself up? Why does it all too often seem to be all or nothing when there are so many gradients of possibility in between? Why rely so heavily on speech when there are so many other skills available? Why not give a player with a high explosives skill an opportunity to disarm a trap on the front door making the combat route much easier? Why not let a player versed in stealth approach through the locked rear door and take up a better position before confronting the robbers? Why not let speech come into play before you even enter the bank? Players could learn about one of the robber’s personal motives, break into his home and use the information gained to help him persuade that robber to turn himself in when the inevitable confrontation arises.

I will be frank in admitting that New Vegas handles skill checks fairly well in several quests but it never hurts to push for even more and so I’m letting it be known that this is the direction quest design needs to head. In the future quests should take skill checks, exploration and a clever use of the surrounding environment all into account. (Deus Ex often handled that last part extremely well).
Of course there are numerous examples that can be cited showing the ways in which New Vegas has poorly implemented skills checks but was glad to see they are the exception rather than the rule and I was also quite pleased to see that New Vegas make far greater use of over a range of skill checks then it’s predecessor and that is certainly a step in the right direction.

Encounter Design and why games stopped being 2D in the first place.

With the advent of 3D gaming the designer needs to begin to design content while keeping three-dimensional spaces in mind. Why then do all the enemies in New Vegas appear at roughly the same elevation? Strangely enough I actually think that Fallout 3 handled encounter design in a 3D space much better the New Vegas has. In Fallout 3 it was very common to engage enemies that were positioned several floors above or below my character, this was particularly prevalent in the ruins of outdoor building and in the subway tunnels. Enemies would fire down at me from the window of a second story building as I worked my way up to them or would notice my character while patrolling the upper levels of an underground subway platform. Yet all of this has been conspicuously absent during my time with New Vegas and I’m left wondering why. There are still outdoor ruins but I have yet to see any enemies in the upper levels of these even though they are surrounding the building at ground level and there are still plenty indoor factories and vaults with a network of catwalks for enemies to take advantage of. So why then does it seem like the designers approached encounter design with a two-dimensional frame of mind? Perhaps it all stems from Obsidian’s lack of familiarity with fully 3D environments? After all New Vegas is the first time they have worked in a fully realized 3D space (at least to my knowledge) and because of this I am willing to chalk it is as understandable oversight. Of course there are times when New Vegas remembers to take advantage of its extra dimension but these instances are the exception rather than the rule and in the future I would beg developers to remember why games gravitated to 3D in the first place and to be sure to take full advantage of that extra dimension when working on any aspect of game design. Remember that not everybody out there thinks that every game has to be 3D but if you choose to design a 3D game be sure to take advantage of all the extra possibilities it offers, otherwise what was the point in the first place.
Very fucking good my friend. I agree with all of this.
Yup.
 

hiver

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After all New Vegas is the first time they have worked in a fully realized 3D space (at least to my knowledge)
wut?

god dammit I will never get used to this fucking consolised UI bullshit I miss hotkeys
While in inventory press any of the numbers then click on desired item.
F keys are already assigned to some parts of the interface.
 

Crooked Bee

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Thanks for the wall of text Topher. I generally agree with what you say. I disagree a bit on the quest design, though.

Topher said:
If I take a quest to stop a group of bank robbers who are armed and have taken hostages two situations are bound to arise 1) I can walk in the front door and use my combat skills to kill the robbers. 2) I can walk in the front door and pass a speech check convincing all the robbers to simply give up and go home.

Instead why not make it so that a player with a moderate speech skill in simply able to convince one of the three robbers to give himself up? Why does it all too often seem to be all or nothing when there are so many gradients of possibility in between?

Let's take the quest of wiping out Vault 19 as an example.
There're several options there.
Option 1. Just kill all the bandits, thereby stopping them from terrorizing NCR citizens.
Option 2. Use explosives (C-4) to mine the sulphur deposit in the caves beneath the vault. Blow up the caves AND the vault. Bandits gone now.
Option 3. There's a guy among the bandits, I don't remember his name, who feels like surrendering to the NCR. To do that, he needs the current leader (who hates the NCR) overthrown. The guy asks you to cut the access to the sulphur; for that, you also need the explosives (as in Option 2), but this time you should choose to only blow up the caves, not the whole vault. By doing this, you basically play one faction against another.
Option 4. Finally, IIRC, there's also the option of convincing the bandits to join up with the Khans.
So it's not really all or nothing, if that's what you're claiming. Aren't you overstretching it a bit?

New Vegas often offers a non-combat path through quests in the form of speech checks or other skill/stat checks but these checks are too often used as a complete alternative allowing players to bypass content instead of as an augmenting factor. ... Why rely so heavily on speech when there are so many other skills available?

Aren't there lots of other checks than speech as well? Medicine and Science play an extremely important role in providing alternative routes in some quests. E.g., in
Dr Henry's quest in Jacobstown
, where a Science check is used NOT to bypass the altogether, but precisely to "augment" the outcome.

On a related note - even though this may count as bypassing the content I guess - I was really (pleasantly) surprised that you can even
convince the Legate to retreat
by using your Barter skill alone (a Barter check of 100), i.e., by arguing economically, from the standpoint of supply routes, the scarcity of resources in the wasteland, etc.
 

Topher

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Crooked Bee I can't comment on your example using Vault 19 because I never came across it during my first play-through (the spoiler tags were very much appreciated) but there are plenty of skills checks in New Vegas involving both stats and other skills (I found a lot of science and barter checks). There are also plenty of quests where these checks augment the path instead of simply bypassing content outright. My argument is that this style of design is very welcome and that it should be more prevalent across the industry. A great deal of the comments I made during that particular portion of my "article" are leveled more toward the current state of gaming and not at New Vegas in specific.
 

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Why then do all the enemies in New Vegas appear at roughly the same elevation?

No, they do not. For example, when you're going to Novac from Nipton using the road you will encounter a raider... and two more on the cliffs.
Other example, the Fiends have some buildings with stairs... they will use those stairs for a better shooting point.
 

Crooked Bee

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My argument is that this style of design is very welcome and that it should be more prevalent across the industry. A great deal of the comments I made during that particular portion of my "article" are leveled more toward the current state of gaming and not at New Vegas in specific.

Ah OK. I seem to have misunderstood your point, mea culpa.
 

Topher

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Havoc said:
Why then do all the enemies in New Vegas appear at roughly the same elevation?

No, they do not. For example, when you're going to Novac from Nipton using the road you will encounter a raider... and two more on the cliffs.
Other example, the Fiends have some buildings with stairs... they will use those stairs for a better shooting point.

There are always exceptions. It simply seemed to me that the number of enemies on elevation had decrease from Fallout 3 and it struck me as rather strange.

Ah OK. I seem to have misunderstood your point, mea culpa.

That's quite alright.
 

made

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I was initially quite impressed with NV's quest variety in that there were zero pure fetch/kill filler tasks. Find a sheriff, ghouls in space, find traitor, fix power plant, recon this, explore that. Some of it was admittedly rather silly and I often had the feeling that the quests were constructed around skill checks, rather than the checks naturally incorporated into the quest flow, but overall there was tons of interesting stuff to do.

Now I've reached NV proper and it seems they've run out of ideas. I got a quest to gather a dozen creature eggs (to impress a chick to boot) and another to photograph stuff all over the map. Very disappointing. I didn't really stray far off the main story path and there are tons of POI left unexplored. The game seems big enough as is without artificially padding playtime with MMO quests.

Furthermore, NV as a city isn't particularly appealing to me. Kings, casinos, and Dr. House robots all feel kinda lame. I think at this point I'll hold off on the MQ, head back south, and have some more cowboy adventures. For some reason I dig that wild west vibe they had going at the beginning.
 

RK47

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Agree with the SPECIAL flaws comment.
Charisma being a really bad stat. With high luck + INT, you can easily start with decent amount of Speech as long as you tag it at the start to keep up with the increased speech check requirements as you progress through different zones.

Nerve - Companion damage & resistance bonus derived from Charisma is barely adequate compensation. Boone, who starts with a scoped hunting rifle as default weapon has no problem 1 shotting enemies from a distance in stealth position due to critical sneak attacks. This is with 1 Charisma mind you. Since an open field engagement starts with sneak attacks, close quarter combats devolve into a psycho and med-x consumption followed with VATS activation. I hated myself for doing it, but it's the only way I can capitalize on my high AGI.

I really think the only way to fix High INT Low CHA = Viable Diplomat is to set a cap on the Speech Skill based on your base SPECIAL attribute. Breakoff point at 2 - 4 - 6 - 8 to allow 25%/50%/75%/100% Skill Cap. It's the least they can do to reward characters with focused attributes and penalize those with weak attributes.

Re: made
Your complaint is a valid one. I too, decided to ignore the majority of the faction quests on the play through because it's just more of the same fed-ex and talk. As a result I didn't get to see some slides at the end. Maybe I'll go through it again on my next play. but definitely fast travel is a must. Especially when you're doing 'Return to Sender'
 

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