Anime Ninja Gaider going down the toilet

[Random]

There's really nothing we can hope for here other than this game being panned worldwide.

 

[DragoFireheart]

There's really nothing we can hope for here other than this game being panned worldwide.

I should steal a copy and take a shit on it.

 

[Echo Mirage]

I was holding off watching that video through fear that it would be trying to hard to be edgy. But now I have see it I can say that its not edgy at all. Its juvenile shit.

 

[Horus]

Problem with japanese industry is the amount of obnoxious developers with their god complexes. There are so many asshole "project leaders" in japan and i really feel bad for their gaming industry. Why does every japanese developer that got some recognition immediately turns into a mini molyneux? Always talking about their next revolutionary idea that will save the industry and will beat down gaijin developers on their own game.

 

[RK47]

I can't wait for this one to be on Steam Greenlight.
It's gotta be the best Ninja Gaiden I ever watched on youtube.

 

[Average Manatee]

Essentially, Ninja Gaiden saw DmC jump down onto a pit of spikes and decided that it couldn't let a friend go alone?



When did we decide that the best tone for an action game was the offensively try-hard teenager one? Was there a vote or something that I missed?

 

[sea]

What is it with Japanese devs making "edgy" protagonists that are ridiculously sexist and obnoxious and thinking that it's super-cool to Western audiences? Maybe like 15 years ago. It just makes me feel uncomfortable and ashamed to even watch. Not only is the game going to fail, it's going to offend a lot of people and get tons of negative PR.

 

[Duraframe300]

What is it with Japanese devs making "edgy" protagonists that are ridiculously sexist and obnoxious and thinking that it's super-cool to Western audiences? Maybe like 15 years ago. It just makes me feel uncomfortable and ashamed to even watch. Not only is the game going to fail, it's going to offend a lot of people and get tons of negative PR.

It's made by a western devs. In collobaration with Inafune, but still...

 

[Azalin]

FFS,who writes this crap,some wannabe porn manga writer?

 

[Average Manatee]

What is it with Japanese devs making "edgy" protagonists that are ridiculously sexist and obnoxious and thinking that it's super-cool to Western audiences? Maybe like 15 years ago. It just makes me feel uncomfortable and ashamed to even watch. Not only is the game going to fail, it's going to offend a lot of people and get tons of negative PR.

It's made by a western devs. In collobaration with Inafune, but still...

I have to wonder if there is some kind of cultural disconnect at work here. What's "cool" for western audiences is already generally offensive to Japanese standards, so when the Japanese go to make games for the western market they tell everyone that to get good they need to be offensive?

 

[AngryEddy]

How is the system horrible? It's a typical action-gaming camera control setup what with the right-stick rotation and one button to recenter the camera.

Having just beaten Sigma 1 about a month ago, I can attest to it have abysmal camera issues. It is stiff, leaves out a lot, and auto centering doesn't always work, and when you're fighting Black Spider Clan ninjas it gives them an enormous advantage.

 

[sea]

It's made by a western devs. In collobaration with Inafune, but still...

True, but I'd like to think he has much of the creative control. You can even read in his interview that he expects them to "learn" from him.

 

[Duraframe300]

It's made by a western devs. In collobaration with Inafune, but still...

True, but I'd like to think he has much of the creative control. You can even read in his interview that he expects them to "learn" from him.

Eh, while he certainly has fault, I doubt Inafune's solely responsible or the writer of the game. His role is probably more producerish. Creativly I think he's more focused on other projects / Mighty No. 9

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

But the masses seem to think that moar combos make a combat system better. I've been told that KoA has superior combat to Souls games, because juggles yo!

I don't think it's so much the presence of combos in as much as the existence of what enables combo-centric gameplay that motivates a lot of "DMC*/Bayo/Amalur are better than Ninja Gaiden/Souls" beliefs.

Generally, more combo-oriented titles have systems with a lot of ways to cancel animations on command, have just-frame defenses (like Royal Guard, the Moon of Mahaa-Kaala, etc.) that allow players with good reflexes to attack aggressively without leaving themselves open, and a bevy of movement/zoning/traversal techniques. Put short, these games put the players in control of extremely high-capability characters and allow them to completely dictate the flow of combat, provided they have the requisite skill and reflexive ability. This leads to a lot of free-form gameplay and an extremely high skill ceiling. The downside is that these systems often lead to a whole lot of widely applicable cheese (see: switch-canceled firearms in DMC3, Panther-Offset PKP in Bayo, High-Side-Kick cancels in God Hand).

Ninja Gaiden, and it's ilk, are a bit different. Ryu Hayabusa is a relatively low-capability character; he lacks a lot of action-gaming mainstays. The Dragon Ninja has no analogous ability to Royal Guard (discounting NGO's Intercept technique included in the Hurricane Pack), his dodges and blocks don't cancel out of animations, he is bereft of a transformation mode (Devil Trigger/Rage of the Titans etc.), his air game is rather limited, and his projectiles are more role-players than difference-makers (though Smoke Bombs are pretty close). This means Ninja Gaiden places far more emphasis on tactics rather than pure reflex; it's necessary to fight the enemies the "correct way" (of which there may be many). For example, players can't smooth over the disadvantages of the War Hammer against, say, Greater Basts with strong just-guarding ability. The upside of this style is that encounters tend to feel more differentiated from one another seeing as attack schemes aren't universally applicable. The downside is that it has less openness and a lower skill ceiling.

I can somewhat sympathize with the view of the combo-cru. The high skill ceilings and open-ended play opportunities have a lot of appeal and can make for long-lasting play opportunities, whether it be experimenting with previously unused weapons/techniques. And the more tactical systems tend to have less replay value than the reflex-rooted ones; while Demons/Dark Souls PvE was excellent for the first couple playthroughs, diminishing returns quickly kick in once the limited systems have been solved.

On the other hand, the first playthoughs of Ninja Gaiden Black/2 and the Souls titles were unforgettable experiences compared to the awkward first playthroughs of DMC3/DMC4/Bayo where you don't have access to all the features, either due to in-game restrictions (unlocks) or a lack of acquaintance with the system.

TL;DFR version: I think it's a bit of a schism in the action gaming community between long-lasting value combined with open-ended action and stupendous early playthoughs with more restricted action.

*Well, DMC3 and DMC4. The first game in the series is actually a lot more like Ninja Gaiden than much of the hardcore fanbase would like to admit. Dante couldn't just do whatever he wanted against Shadows, Nelo, and Phantom.

What is it with Japanese devs making "edgy" protagonists that are ridiculously sexist and obnoxious and thinking that it's super-cool to Western audiences? Maybe like 15 years ago. It just makes me feel uncomfortable and ashamed to even watch. Not only is the game going to fail, it's going to offend a lot of people and get tons of negative PR.

Is there really a trend? Hard to really come up with any examples that are anywhere near what the West has done only within the technical-action genre. Kratos, Dante (Dante's Inferno), Monkey (Enslaved), Donte (THE DEMON KILLAH HAS A NICE WUBWUBWUBWUBWUBWUB!), and now Yaiba...more edginess than a morning-star. All Japanese heroes are either stoic shinobi, bishonen pretty boys, or fun-loving, CUH-RAY-ZEE guys like Dante (DMC) and Gene (God Hand)

 

[Shadenuat]

That video is too stupid to be true. Nobody writes dialogue like that, I am rejecting my humanity disbelieving it TNO style now.

 

[Machocruz]

Smart talk about action games

Astute points, and I have to agree that ceiling for character mastery is lower in NG than it is in DMC3, Bayonetta; you can exhaust the system in one playthrough. After that, like Souls, the challenge comes solely from increasingly aggressive and damaging enemies in NG+, Master Ninja Tournament, etc. Never thought about it that way before. I think the power progression system is as important a factor. With DMC and Bayo, you can't get all the abilities in one play through without mad grinding, unlike NG. I didn't. So even before the player goes to the harder modes, there is reason to play those game at least twice. I give the nod to DMC4, a lesser game in almost every other area, over Bayonetta just because the abilities look so damn awesome.

The people arguing for KoA aren't thinking on that level, which is the problem. It was simply a case of moar=better. They had no deeper grasp of action and fighting game concepts. They also argued that KoA was better because of the loot system, ie moar suffixes, moar Diablo 2-ness. KoA has a low ceiling despite allowing juggle combos. It's just not a very robust system or a challenging game, even on hard settings. I don't have a problem with people's game preferences, but they're working from a premise -that the more OTT and flashy a combat system is, the better- that they haven't provided adequate support for.

I don't argue that one form is inherently superior to the other, but that it's the execution that matters. Souls games executes it's simulation-lite combat better than KoA executes "stylish" combat, imo. If KoA had DMC4 quality combat, I wouldn't even argue.

Still, I'm tired of whaling on regular enemies in arenas for minutes at a time. I'm even more tired of the fact that this is the way it has to be done whenever anyone makes a melee action game these days, even if it's a side scroller *coughMirrorofFatecough.* Just frames, cancels, and other such nuances can exist outside of combo extravaganzas, and all these things are more interesting than having 30 combo strings or being able to see the counter on screen reach 100, if I had to choose. Ok, once and a while I like to see some big flashy combos, but think Marvel Capcom 1 instead of MvC3.

Btw, God Hand feels closer to NG side of the street, to me. Yes you can do Hick Kick 'infinites' with cancels, but without knowing the designers' intent and not being mentioned in the game's instructions, one could assume it wasn't an intended feature, whereas in God of War and Bayonetta it's obviously expected that you keep your combo going for 50 hits. The move set , chaining, and amount of creativity the system allows are just right. I've recently come to the conclusion that it's one of the top five 3D melee games of all time. The game is some kind of revelation; I've noticed a growing cult of people who have awakened to this over the years, I mean a religious following. Like they're discovering a masterpiece that the game industry didn't want them to find.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Astute points

I dunno if I'd go that far, brother...just some spergin'.

you can exhaust the system in one playthrough. After that, like Souls, the challenge comes solely from increasingly aggressive and damaging enemies in NG+, Master Ninja Tournament, etc.

I'd be inclined to mostly agree with this. Just a few things I'd say a bit different:

-In Ninja Gaiden Black, one "playthough" is basically going through all the difficulties of the main game as well as Mission Mode because without doing so you won't have actually faced all of the potential encounters and really been pushed to understand the systems. For instance, a player who hasn't played VH+ hasn't been pressured by Mechanized Vigoorian Infantry and had to adapt to their shriken-proof nature and automated Flying Swallow counter move. And they probably haven't faced Berserkers in sufficient number to really get a feel for them nor dueled Ishtaros much, if at all.

A lot of the skills in Ninja Gaiden are enemy or encounter specific and unless you "spoil" yourself, the only way to discover a good tactic is in-game exploration...trying things and seeing what doesn't get you killed. But once you have this knowledge, there's not a lot else you can do to the enemy. Upon realizing one of the "good" tactics for disposing of the enemy, and learning how to execute it, that's really as far as Ninja Gaiden goes (outside of karma runs). There's not the level of gameplay virtuosity allowed by systems like DMC3/DMC4/GH/Bayo, and that's where the skill ceiling really shows.

You can only school a Berserker so hard. Alma can only be killed so efficiently. All high-level play tends to be kind of homogeneous; the tactics are similar, just executed slightly better/worse (well, exceedingly so if it's YROGRVLNT playing NG2 Survival Mode compared to everyone else). That's where the more "tactics-based" games like NG tend to come up a bit short and why a lot of the really hardcore akshun-gaming crowd has a slight (or not-so-slight) disdain for them.

But that's not really a huge complaint in my eyes. After all, they provide(d) excellent entertainment for numerous hours and generally had a consistent quality you don't really see in the other technical-akshun subgenres.

-The Souls games are kind of weak in this regard because successive playthroughs only add additional health and damage to enemies but don't alter item placement nor enemy sets. And there is practically no AI changes (besides Kings in the New Londo boss fight spawning more quickly in NG+....I think). That's what really makes PvE stale. And it's sad, because there are a lot of criminally underused enemies that could have been mixed into NG+ (and beyond) sets to make the game more interesting. As it stands, the most challenging foes in NG+7 are the Hellkite Dragon's ludicrous damage, the Pinwheel skellies, the Duke's Archives projectile spam, and O&S attacking from off-camera for the one-shot-kill. Not so much fun.

I think the power progression system is as important a factor. With DMC and Bayo, you can't get all the abilities in one play through without mad grinding, unlike NG.

In DMC4 it's technically possible to have whatever you need via Proud Souls, but Bayo is legitimately impossible to have anywhere close to a full moveset even if you are abusing guides. There's simply no way to gain access to the Bracelet of Time, Eternal Testimony, Climax Bracelet, the Bazillions, and Pillow Talk on your first playthrough. Getting Sai-Fong and Rodin would require ludicrous amounts of grinding; enough that I'm mostly certain >50% of Bayonetta players have never encountered either.

I give the nod to DMC4, a lesser game in almost every other area, over Bayonetta just because the abilities look so damn awesome.

I would definitely give the nod to DMC4 over Bayonetta, but then again I'm a heretic who, after giving DMC4 another chance, thinks that it is the best in the series....so what do I know, eh?

I don't argue that one form is inherently superior to the other, but that it's the execution that matters. Souls games executes it's simulation-lite combat better than KoA executes "stylish" combat, imo. If KoA had DMC4 quality combat, I wouldn't even argue

I dig it.

Honestly, I really no little about KoA besides what the previews spoke of (and what fellow Codexer Lestat/Hummelgumpf/Kalos pointed out to me). I assumed all their talks of juggles/cancels weren't for show and that there was a shred of truth to the claims.

Evidently that wasn't so. It doesn't surprise me that the game didn't have depth but some combo-cru types loved it. I mean, shit, I've encountered bros who think games like El Shaddai or Ninja Blade are great and Ninja Gaiden is trash. Weird, right?

Still, I'm tired of whaling on regular enemies in arenas for minutes at a time.

Honestly, the only time I've ever felt this was in DMC3's Dante Must Die mode because of the silly Devil Trigger mechanics for enemies (and the overly resilient bosses). In DMC4 both Nero and Dante had enough power at any given point to quickly eliminate foes and Bayonetta, while punishing high damage moves in scoring, can certainly dish it out through things like Durga bombs, Angel Arms (incl. Rodin), Iai-Jutsu, Kilgore Kicks, Bazillions bullet climaxes, crow feathers, and most Wicked Weaves.

Just frames, cancels, and other such nuances can exist outside of combo extravaganzas, and all these things are more interesting than having 30 combo strings or being able to see the counter on screen reach 100, if I had to choose.

The thing with that is that being able to cancel out of frames with relative ease almost necessitates a combo-based game to compensate. When i-frames are a button-press away at any time/point, no reasonable AI enemy can really compete. That's why DMC and Bayo have ranking systems featured so prominently.

Well, at least that's my theory.

Btw, God Hand feels closer to NG side of the street, to me. Yes you can do Hick Kick 'infinites' with cancels, but without knowing the designers' intent and not being mentioned in the game's instructions, one could assume it wasn't an intended feature, whereas in God of War and Bayonetta it's obviously expected that you keep your combo going for 50 hits.

What I feel separates God Hand from Ninja Gaiden is the fact that Gene can cancel out of poorly made moves whereas Ryu cannot. That's huge in how the player approach combat; God Hand rewards the skillful/reflexive with more opportunities to run high-risk/high-reward schemes whereas in Ninja Gaiden the player commit a lot more to any given action and thus has to really consider whether or not the tactic is appropriate for the given foe(s).

The move set , chaining, and amount of creativity the system allows are just right. I've recently come to the conclusion that it's one of the top five 3D melee games of all time. The game is some kind of revelation; I've noticed a growing cult of people who have awakened to this over the years, I mean a religious following. Like they're discovering a masterpiece that the game industry didn't want them to find.

There's really nothing quite like it. Truly an under-appreciated gem, a diamond in the rough.

Gotta thank '08 Codex (like Jasede and such) for recommending it to me. Serious incline.

 

[Machocruz]

In DMC4 it's technically possible to have whatever you need via Proud Souls

I didn't know this about DMC4. I admit I never played as far as I did 1 and 3, in which I wasn't able to get all the powers in one go.

I would definitely give the nod to DMC4 over Bayonetta, but then again I'm a heretic who, after giving DMC4 another chance, thinks that it is the best in the series....so what do I know, eh?

The fatal flaw is the repeated stages. And the aesthetic was too bright, not gothic enough. The combat itself is su-perb. Again, I run into people who think Bayo is undoubtedly better based on how easy it is for the average person to look flashy.

Honestly, I really no little about KoA besides what the previews spoke of (and what fellow Codexer Lestat/Hummelgumpf/Kalos pointed out to me). I assumed all their talks of juggles/cancels weren't for show and that there was a shred of truth to the claims.

Juggles and cancels are there, but there is no feeling of accomplishment in pulling them off. Game is too easy, timing is generous. And the animation doesn't compare to these other games we're talking about. It's a system for people who "play for fun." Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think the combat is any better than Dark Souls because of juggles and cancels.

Honestly, the only time I've ever felt this was in DMC3's Dante Must Die mode because of the silly Devil Trigger mechanics for enemies (and the overly resilient bosses). In DMC4 both Nero and Dante had enough power at any given point to quickly eliminate foes and Bayonetta, while punishing high damage moves in scoring, can certainly dish it out through things like Durga bombs, Angel Arms (incl. Rodin), Iai-Jutsu, Kilgore Kicks, Bazillions bullet climaxes, crow feathers, and most Wicked Weaves.

God of War is the worst offender of this when all you have is the Chains of Chaos. Maybe that game doesn't even belong among this company, but it's the first one I think of.

Going for Pure Platinum in Bayo is not fun to me because it rewards death-of-1000-paper-cuts. DMC rewards you even for linking big attacks together. It feels more free to me, offers more room for the individuals creativity. It's as much fun to watch as play.

What it comes down to is wanting to see what the equivalent of one-hit, one kill games like old Ninja Gaiden would be like in 3rd person. That constant forward momentum. The Musou games kind of offer this, but not quite what I have in mind.

The thing with that is that being able to cancel out of frames with relative ease almost necessitates a combo-based game to compensate. When i-frames are a button-press away at any time/point, no reasonable AI enemy can really compete. That's why DMC and Bayo have ranking systems featured so prominently.

Well, at least that's my theory.

I'm theorizing too. I was thinking of a hypothetical equivalent to Third Strike, as opposed to the equivalent of MvC2. I know: different genres, different design requirements. Just using fighting game analogies to paint a clearer picture.

Also, how do you rank Metal Gear Rising? I have yet to play it.

 

[LivingOne]

I would definitely give the nod to DMC4 over Bayonetta, but then again I'm a heretic who, after giving DMC4 another chance, thinks that it is the best in the series....so what do I know, eh?

The fatal flaw is the repeated stages. And the aesthetic was too bright, not gothic enough. The combat itself is su-perb. Again, I run into people who think Bayo is undoubtedly better based on how easy it is for the average person to look flashy.

I think the problem also lies with enemies and combat system not matching up very well.DMC1 had more complex,slower paced foes that requiered to pay attention to their moveset and that rarely would let you chain a huge combo on them.Combat moveset was also slower paced to reflect that.

In DMC3 you had simpler but more aggressive enemies you could hit,stun,knock down and juggle as you please as soon as you had a free window between their constant attacks(Sloth guardians,Lust guardians and Enigmas in particular).

In DMC4 though it seemed they went back to DMC1 style of enemies(see the demonic lizards and the frost ones)but at the same time they had DMC3 smoother,faster paced moveset.The result is that enemies are too slow to offer DMC3's faster paced challange as well as DMC1 more 'technical' one.*

Also bosses were a step back and it took too long for the standard 'hp+basic attack+walk animation' thash mobs(scarecrows) too go away this time.

*This is why I enjoyed The Dishwasher.I thought it succeded in marrying DMC1 and 3 styles better than DMC4.