Interview NMA's big to-do about nothing posted as advertised

[almondblight]

Let me see. First off, I never said the tb combat itself wans't solid. Overall, it was solid; but the game itself was not. You gonna dispute this factual fact?

Ehh...opinion. Even if it is a widespread opinion, it doesn't make it fact. And it doesn't make it a "factual fact".

Which is why i fit in her eperfectly. In your hyperbole about my asinineity explains why you fit in here as well. :twisted:

So...you "fit in her perfectly"? And he still fits in her as well? Yeah, I'd say that is a little twisted.

And, let's face it, the credo of Troika has been tb, tb, tb.

For being the TB Gods they sure as heck make a lot of RT type games - Arcanum and Vampire included.

Ehh....? Ehhhhh....???

 

[almondblight]

Holy shit. Am I the only one who sees giant robots inapropriate?

Yes.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Yes. FO. Though TOEE has more combat options, Fo had the HUGE advantage in regards to challenge that more than makes up for anal rules implemenation.Plus, overall, FO is a more solid tb game because its a more complete package as a game.

The challenge that Fallout presented over ToEE was due to the inability to control party members. I think that's an uneven comparison. Overall, I'd say ToEE is better in a few things, like movement and large amount of combat options.

Which is why i fit in her eperfectly. In your hyperbole about my asinineity explains why you fit in here as well.

I fit in because... I pointed it out to you?

Please don't cry because I npoint out that by virtue of BIO having more experience in RT.

That's curious, because I didn't said anything that would show disagreement with you on that field.

wpause games that Troika won't swoop in and automatically make a better one in their first try.

Curious as well, because I can't remember saying they'd make it at their first try. Though, admitedly, it could have been implicit in the ongoing discussion and I missed it.

If the best you can do is call me a BIo fanboy; you lose.

Uh, I didn't call you a fanboy, dumbnuts. You called me one.

At leats Bioware doesn't seemingly "lower their standards" to please publishers on the scale that Troika does. For being the TB Gods they sure as heck make a lot of RT type games - Arcanum and Vampire included.

So, some time ago, Troika needed to become aware of market realities. Now that they did, they're lowering their standards. Weird.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Holy shit. Am I the only one who sees giant robots inapropriate?

Yes.

Seconded.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Holy shit. Am I the only one who sees giant robots inapropriate?

They are no more inappropriate then elves, dragons, super mutants, balanced alien races, and other game stuff.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Despite Troika's apparent awareness for 'market realities' they have failed to grasp the fact that the number one demand people have for RPGs is a strong storyline - of which TOEE had absolutely none. Now that Bloodlines has a supposedly strong storyline, they're 'lowering' their standards, is that right, RP?

I suppose that with your logic, making mediocre games like TOEE and Arcanum is called maintaining a 'high standard' while developing solid games like Fallout which are, as Volourn said a more "complete package" should be considered 'mainstreaming' and thus 'dumbing down'. Why bother with consistency and having a fully concerted gameplay experience, right? Only idiots wouldn't be able to connect TOEE's apparent lack of goals or motivation with a solid reason to keep playing the game.

Tell you what, if a movie or a game or a book is broken into disconcerting fragments, as TOEE was, nobody is going to want to play it more than once, if they even bother to finish it. The combat's only fun for awhile. It might have been the best TB implementation we've ever seen, short of the really base and stupid AI (enemy mages casting Bull's Strength on my warrior as a feature?) as the vehicle of the game, but it certainly didn't have a good driver - nor did that driver know where it was headed. Short of kiling random monsters, the game just felt absolutely pointless.

If that's your idea of a good gameplay experience...

Now, if only Troika had maintained the high standard they ESTABLISHED with Fallout, I'd have more faith in them. They're just getting worse and worse, in opposition to Bioware's constant improvements. You can't really fault Bioware for using watered down pause and play gameplay either - at least they're consistently making relatively decent games, with the exception of NWN (HOTU was decent), some of which I've played repeatedly (the Baldur's Gate series). Troika is not in any way consistent. I've got some hopes for Obsidian to produce a good game, too, especially with MCA penning most of their work. His hand in Planescape Torment was possibly the reason why to this day, Planescape Torment remains the best written game ever made. It might have not offered as diverse a range of choices as Fallout did, but the writing is definitely the best, bar none. Anachronox takes a close second for its pseudoscience, strong characterizations and elaborate plot, even though Falout remains the best 'overall' package for me for reasons obvious to most of you.

 

[Anonymous]

Arcanum isnt medicore, retard. Just because you didnt feel like finishing it doesnt make it a bad game.

 

[Sol Invictus]

MEDICORE: TOMORROW'S MEDICAL TECHNOLOGY TODAY.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Despite Troika's apparent awareness for 'market realities' they have failed to grasp the fact that the number one demand people have for RPGs is a strong storyline - of which TOEE had absolutely none. Now that Bloodlines has a supposedly strong storyline, they're 'lowering' their standards, is that right, RP?

Why are you directing that question towards me? Volourn is the one that implied, in the past, that Troika sold out and lowered their standards because they were going realtime - after having stated that they should be aware of market realities. Did you miss the part I was questioning his statement, rather than supporting it?

Tell you what, if a movie or a game or a book is broken into disconcerting fragments, as TOEE was, nobody is going to want to play it more than once, if they even bother to finish it. The combat's only fun for awhile. It might have been the best TB implementation we've ever seen, short of the really base and stupid AI (enemy mages casting Bull's Strength on my warrior as a feature?) as the vehicle of the game, but it certainly didn't have a good driver - nor did that driver know where it was headed. Short of kiling random monsters, the game just felt absolutely pointless.

Tell you what, read back the whole thing and come back to me when you notice what was being discussed. No, saying you did doesn't count, you have to actually read and understand it.

If that's your idea of a good gameplay experience.. bla bla bla.

Could you be any more off topic at this point? Where does the point I was discussing with Volourn merit that kind of response?

 

[MF]

What's wrong with Arcanum?
The combat sucked, but I like the game a lot. Sometimes even more than Fallout.
Heck, sometimes even more than Monopoly! Ehr...

I really just want Arcanum 2 from them, with good combat this time. And no jungle mazes.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oh shit. I was writing some response to you (which I forgot) when I started reading Volourn's post and got it all muddled up. Serves me right for typing half asleep at the moment.

 

[xemous]

At leats Bioware doesn't seemingly "lower their standards" to please publishers on the scale that Troika does

Thats becuase there games sell well and arnt as risky as trokias ideas

Im sure if some uber TB game came out and gave an easy intoduction to the game with some really cool box art and enough hype and pr to get the kids it play it, then it sells well and tb is in, bioware will make a tb game

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Fair enough, Exitium.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Im sure if some uber TB game came out and gave an easy intoduction to the game with some really cool box art and enough hype and pr to get the kids it play it, then it sells well and tb is in, bioware will make a tb game

I don't know. In Fallout, you had the ability to speed up combat animations, which already improved the overal speed. In Arcanum, you had a combat option called Fast Turn Based, which made it so the game didn't use movement animations. In ToEE, you had the option of concurrent turns, which made it so enemies that followed each other in the sequence had simultaneous turns.

Those three alone already make turnbased combat much faster than what people give it credit for, and its certainly as easy to handle as that of Baldur's Gate or NWN.

The problem here seems to be twofold - a preference for fast, manageable combat, and realism. The first one already can be handled more or less well, but the ongoing trend that things need to look realistic is probably now the most important aspect. Realtime certainly looks realistic (even if it doesn't always play realistically), and many people reject turnbased because of its depiction of things.

 

[Volourn]

"You wrote Kings of RT"

Why do you lie Whip? What I wrote - mistyping as per usual aside - is rght there. I never once called BIO "Kings (or Gods) of RT". So, please, stop besmirching my horrible name.


"The credo of Troika has been role-playing games as proven by Arcanum, a great role-playing game with a crappy TB/RT combo."

No, the credo of Troika is tb games. You seem to forget they were FORCED to include RT by their publisher. Not their choice. It also shwoed. As much as I like Arcanum including its combat; it's RT component was AWFUL. It's no surprise why that is so.


"Exactly, so what's with the "sudden shift" nonsense?"

Sudden shift in this type of scenario doesn't mean in the last second, silly goose. It measn, they went from one extreme (we do tb ra ra ra we do tb rar ra ra) to we'll doRT w/pause and we'll love it (sure ya will, hahaha!). The difference between BIO, and Troika is that BIO seems to make games the way they want to while Troika seems to be bullied into making games *almost* how they want and it shows. Of course, there are exemptions sicne some things have been cut/added from BIO games as well; but it's nowhere to the same degree as Troika is.


"The challenge that Fallout presented over ToEE was due to the inability to control party members."

Hahaha. What does party members have to do this? FO was more challenging in combat than TOEE. Period. It has nothing to do with controlling/not controlling party members. The IE games, with the exception of PST, were all more challenging than TOEE and they were all PC party controlled. Wowsers!


"Curious as well, because I can't remember saying they'd make it at their first try."

Curious indeed, since I never said youd. Whip did. However, your earlier comments on the issue can lead one to believe that's what you believe.


"Uh, I didn't call you a fanboy,"

Liar. Just because you didn't diretcly use the word 'fanboy' doesn't mean you didn't basically say the same thing. Nice try though.


"So, some time ago, Troika needed to become aware of market realities. Now that they did, they're lowering their standards."

Wrong. The problem here is the almost 360 view they have in making games. Before, it was we make tb rpgs; now it's we'll make anything that can sell. In compariosn, BIo seems to be able to manage to both make games that sell and still basically make the games they want to make the game.

One can make a tb game that sells a million + copy and still be a quality game. It seems that Troika has yet to combine that. It seems weird though since Squaresoft has been doing EXACTLY that for over a decade. WOWSERS!


P.S. People who diss Arcanum suck at RPGs.

 

[Vault Dweller]

"The credo of Troika has been role-playing games as proven by Arcanum, a great role-playing game with a crappy TB/RT combo."

No, the credo of Troika is tb games.

Says who? Based on what? Traditionally we bitched at Bio for linear, choiceless games with meaningless dialogues and limited role-playing, while praising Troika for the opposite of those. I understand your desire to twist facts to support your latest position, but try not to overdo that.

You seem to forget they were FORCED to include RT by their publisher.

I thought we were talking about facts, not motivations and circumstances.

"Exactly, so what's with the "sudden shift" nonsense?"

Sudden shift in this type of scenario doesn't mean in the last second, silly goose. It measn, they went from one extreme (we do tb ra ra ra we do tb rar ra ra) to we'll doRT w/pause and we'll love it (sure ya will, hahaha!).

Huh? Are you letting your ass do the talking again? What extreme? Oh, you mean that interview where Tim said that they are making a turn-based D-n-fucking-D game because that's what DnD is all about? An opinion on a specific situation hardly qualifies as a company mission.

 

[z3r'0']

Great interview, thanks Odin.

OT : DAMN, You guys argue over the silliest things!
Fanboys calling each other fanboys.

Btw, we haven't seen a great RPG in a really really long time...(ala Fallout, PST)

 

[Volourn]

"Says who?"

Uh. Troika. Even this most recent interview shows how much love they have for the tb combat model. Which is cool; but it illustrates that RT w/pause is *not* their first choice. Not even really their choice. It's the demands of publishers that get them to make their RT. Good games tend not to be made or tend to be handicapped (Arcanuk for example) when publishers demands don't match what developers want. I don't have to twist anything when Troika has made it very clear they prefer tb. Period.


"I thought we were talking about facts, not motivations and circumstances."

When those motivations/cricumstances effect the facst theya re very much important to the issue at hand. How can "anyone* expect a company to outdo another company at "their own game" when it'll be their firstc rack at it and they really don't want to do it. It'll be like me coming on her if BIo annoucnes a tb game and saying they will undoubtedly crush Troika's tb games. It would be ridiculous to think that and I'd be told so. then again, I'd never be so fanboyish as to even suggest it. That's the problem. When someone ie. the klnown liar whip who claims I called BIO the 'Kings/Gods of Rt" when I did not suggest that there is no doubt 100% that Troika's RT w/pause would crush BIo's versions on their first try is just utterly wrong. I pointed that out,a nd you came charging in to defend the undefendable and ar enow trying to be sneaky and change your tune. Nice try.


"An opinion on a specific situation hardly qualifies as a company mission."

Oh, please. Anyone who has half paid attention to Troika knows full well their first chocie for their games are tb combat RPGs. To say otherwise is to distort facts and change reality.

 

[baelstren]

NMA forums handles that part pretty well, RP, dont worry.

And about mechs - well, I think mechs are stupid, silly and pointless but LARPs - the future of RPGs. Whats so fucking strange about that? Uh?

Do us a favor and don't have any offspring. :D

 

[Whipporowill]

"You wrote Kings of RT"

Why do you lie Whip? What I wrote - mistyping as per usual aside - is rght there. I never once called BIO "Kings (or Gods) of RT". So, please, stop besmirching my horrible name.

Troika has yet to make a solid turn base game (though I eprsonally liked Arcanum) despite being The TB Gods tm. Yet you expect them to make a RT w/pause ga,e as good as the Kings of RT W/pAUSE tm known as Bioware on thier first try? Ooo, the arrogance of Troika fanboys. Gotta love it.

OMG! WHY DO I LIE?

 

[Whipporowill]

I didn't say it was guaranteed that they'd do a better RT system than Bio, just saying that it wasn't impossible. Way to go overreacting Volo - as I was just reacting to Rex post about it winding up possibly being worse than DA.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

No, the credo of Troika is tb games. You seem to forget they were FORCED to include RT by their publisher.

Leonard said in one of the DAC interviews that going both realtime and turnbased was their decision, not the publishers' decision.

Hahaha. What does party members have to do this? FO was more challenging in combat than TOEE. Period. It has nothing to do with controlling/not controlling party members. The IE games, with the exception of PST, were all more challenging than TOEE and they were all PC party controlled. Wowsers!

So you don't think its more challenging to keep alive 1 fully controllable character and 5 AI-controlled NPCs, than to keep 6 fully controllable characters? You don't think battles are more challenging when you can only control one out of six members in your party?

"Uh, I didn't call you a fanboy,"

Liar. Just because you didn't diretcly use the word 'fanboy' doesn't mean you didn't basically say the same thing. Nice try though.

Kidding, right? You know bloody well that if I wanted to call you a fanboy, I would.

Wrong. The problem here is the almost 360 view they have in making games. Before, it was we make tb rpgs; now it's we'll make anything that can sell.

Uh, not really. First, it was "we like making turnbased games"; and now its "we like making turnbased games, but its getting increasingly difficult to sell that concept to publishers". Did they ever said they'd dedicate to making turnbased games only? Can't remember that. That their first game is both realtime and turnbased, and that their third game is going to be realtime would likely pose serious doubts to that line of thought.

In compariosn, BIo seems to be able to manage to both make games that sell and still basically make the games they want to make the game.

And? Does that mean Troika have less credibility because they're being as honest as Bioware is?

One can make a tb game that sells a million + copy and still be a quality game. It seems that Troika has yet to combine that. It seems weird though since Squaresoft has been doing EXACTLY that for over a decade. WOWSERS!

It could be argued that they make successful games in spite of the combat model they use, but that's a subject for some other time, I think.

 

[Whipporowill]

No, the credo of Troika is tb games. You seem to forget they were FORCED to include RT by their publisher.

Leonard said in one of the DAC interviews that going both realtime and turnbased was their decision, not the publishers' decision..

Still, that doesn't mean Sierra didn't demand RT and a multiplayer component. As for going hybrid, that's certainly on Troika's own concience (as Boyarsky said). Not saying that I know or anything, but that it's a possibility - Leonard might have said otherwise in the interview, but not that I remember.

 

[Volourn]

"Kings of RT W/Pause"

Once again, Whip, I never said Bio were Kings of RT. I said they were Kings of RT/w Pause. A HUGE difference. So, stop lying. Please.

"Leonard said in one of the DAC interviews that going both realtime and turnbased was their decision, not the publishers' decision."

Blah, blah, blah. This decision was made just after Troika whined that their tb PA game couldn't hook no fish. They couldn't sell the original cocnept so they decieed to fall back on RT w/pause and papaarntly they got some fishies iuntereste din the hook. Not their first choice. Go figure.


"So you don't think its more challenging to keep alive 1 fully controllable character and 5 AI-controlled NPCs, than to keep 6 fully controllable characters? You don't think battles are more challenging when you can only control one out of six members in your party?"

No. It's a different kind of challenge; but it doesn't change how ahrd a game can/could be since presumably the devs in question will balance it for whatever system it is. Case in point: People whined that NWN OC was easy and point out the fact that a mid level rogue can beat a dragon solo. That proves nothing; but NWN OC was baalnced so a mid level rogue could that. It is a tough/challenging fight for what its balanced for. Just like FO's fights are challenging for what's its balanced for. Same with the IE games, same with the GB games, and mostly true for Arcanum. TOEE was balanced for a party of say 4-8; but its too easy for such a aprty. They failed in that regard. Period.


"Does that mean Troika have less credibility because they're being as honest as Bioware is? "

Their honest isn't in question. I never said they lied. Nice try in attempting to change topics.


"It could be argued that they make successful games in spite of the combat model they use, but that's a subject for some other time, I think."

It could be argued; but it would be a wronga rgument with so many holes in it it would be pathetic. Whether people on this baord like BIO's RT w/pause combat system is irrelavnt. Many people do, and that's why their games sell. Than again even those who rag on BIO non stop continually buy their games. R00fles!

 

[Briosafreak]

Great interview, thanks Odin.

OT : DAMN, You guys argue over the silliest things!
Fanboys calling each other fanboys.

Btw, we haven't seen a great RPG in a really really long time...(ala Fallout, PST)

Tell me about it

I`m taking this time without memorable games to read these discussions, it helps. Keeps one busy. Yeah.