Interview NMA's big to-do about nothing posted as advertised

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Why helo thar, page 5 LOLOL

Blah, blah, blah. This decision was made just after Troika whined that their tb PA game couldn't hook no fish.

I was talking about Arcanum.

So you don't think its more challenging to keep alive 1 fully controllable character and 5 AI-controlled NPCs, than to keep 6 fully controllable characters? You don't think battles are more challenging when you can only control one out of six members in your party?"

No.

....ok.

It's a different kind of challenge; but it doesn't change how ahrd a game can/could be since presumably the devs in question will balance it for whatever system it is. (...)
Just like FO's fights are challenging for what's its balanced for. Same with the IE games, same with the GB games, and mostly true for Arcanum. TOEE was balanced for a party of say 4-8; but its too easy for such a aprty. They failed in that regard. Period.

And in spite of that so-called balance, I found the difficulty of Fallout's combat to be variable, even moreso with Fallout 2. Regardless, there's likely situations where that balance will fail, wheter in ToEE or Fallout. It depends on what kind of circumstances we're dealing with.

Their honest isn't in question. I never said they lied. Nice try in attempting to change topics.

I didn't said you said they lied. You suggested Troika took a radical stance in regards to their views on their games, and dismissed their claims that they like turnbased but that its become a bad selling point for publishers because, by your comparison, Bioware has managed to be successful with realtime with pause, and that those are the games they like to make.

If you haven't understood it, my quesiton is, why do you question the honesty behind Troika's comments that they like turnbased but find it increasingly harder to pitch to publishers so they are looking at alternatives, using Bioware's example? Why are Bioware's statements more acceptable than those of Troika?

It could be argued; but it would be a wronga rgument with so many holes in it it would be pathetic.

So you're telling me that Square-Enix's Final Fantasy series is successful because of its turnbased combat?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Troika. Even this most recent interview shows how much love they have for the tb combat model.

Preferences aren't credo. They also like PA settings, yet they didn't make one yet (as Troika). So?

I don't have to twist anything when Troika has made it very clear they prefer tb.

Once again, developers preferences and reality are two different things. Like I said, they also made it clear that they like PA, yet they made 3 non-PA games so far.

It'll be like me coming on her if BIo annoucnes a tb game and saying they will undoubtedly crush Troika's tb games.

First of all, I've never said that. We were arguing about different things, but if you want to talk about that, it's fine. Let me ask, do you think that combat modes are such a complicated concept that an untrained developer has no chance of getting it right? Come on. Take Prelude to Darkness, for example. It features an outstanding TB combat. Same goes for SS. Overall, though, it's not a combat mode that makes Bio games or Troika's Arcanum (and hopefully Bloodlines) unique.

When someone ie. the klnown liar whip who claims I called BIO the 'Kings/Gods of Rt" when I did not suggest that there is no doubt 100% that Troika's RT w/pause would crush BIo's versions on their first try is just utterly wrong. I pointed that out,a nd you came charging in to defend the undefendable and ar enow trying to be sneaky and change your tune. Nice try.

Huh? Came charging? I noticed that you are getting carried away and, as a friend, decided to stop you before you make a fool out of yourself Anyway, I disagreed with 2 things when I joined the discussion: that credo of Troika was TB, and that there was any sudden shift thingy. Nice try.

Oh, please. Anyone who has half paid attention to Troika knows full well their first chocie for their games are tb combat RPGs. To say otherwise is to distort facts and change reality.

So what? And Bio, allegedly, has always wanted to work on their own IPs. That didn't stop them from making good licensed adventure games

 

[Volourn]

"I was talking about Arcanum."

Ok. As Whip mentioned, Troika didn't really want RT combat in the game; they were told to have it. They were given permission to have tb too. It's called trying to make the best out of a situation that didn't go as planned.


"Regardless, there's likely situations where that balance will fail, wheter in ToEE or Fallout. It depends on what kind of circumstances we're dealing with."

Never said FO had a perfect balance; just that it had much better balance than TOEE which is why I ultimately enjoyed FO's combat more than TOEE's inspite of TOEE's kewl rules implenation. Options in combat are useless if they aren't needed for the majority of the game (5' step being the exception as it was actually useful).

"why do you question the honesty behind Troika's comments that they like turnbased but find it increasingly harder to pitch to publishers so they are looking at alternatives, using Bioware's example? Why are Bioware's statements more acceptable than those of Troika?"

Once again, it's not about honesty or lack of honest. I'm sure sverything in that articles is TRUE; but it reeks of them falling into line and doing something just because it will make money and/or get contracts; and not do what they want and still make money. Afterall, isn't that one of the main reasons why Troika was formed in the first place? So, they could make games their way and not how the big wigs (ie. Interplay told them to?).. Yet, here they are, succumbing to Mystery Publishers who seemingly have told them no to tb games.

remember, it wans't so long ago, Troika was whining about not being able to find a publisher for their tb PA game; but now because it seems they are leaning towards RT w/pause they supposedly have fishies waiting to bite. Sorry, it seems to me they are settling for second choice which makes one worried that it won't turn out as good as it could because it's not *really* what they want.

With BIO, they *want* to make RT/wpause games or at least if they don't they surely hide their distaste for it pretty well. LOL Making games the way you want and still making money is the goal. It seems that Tropika has failed to meet that goal so they 'chickening' out.

"So you're telling me that Square-Enix's Final Fantasy series is successful because of its turnbased combat?"

You telling me that Atari's reluctance for a TOEE sequel is because its turn base? Or the fact it didn't sell a million copies is because its turn base? Sorry. Logic works both ways. I do know one thing, FF's turn base combat certainly doesn't hurt its sales. Next.


"They also like PA settings, yet they didn't make one yet (as Troika). So?"

imo, Arcanum is close. Plus, they sure have every intetnion to make one - just not a tb one anytime soon apparantly. LOL


"Like I said, they also made it clear that they like PA, yet they made 3 non-PA games so far. "

And?


"Let me ask, do you think that combat modes are such a complicated concept that an untrained developer has no chance of getting it right? Come on."

Getting it 'right'? No. But, as we all know, experience makes a huge difference. BIO can take what they've elarend from their games and use what worked and throw out what didn't. Heck, even Obsdian can do that due to their history of using BIO RT/wpause engine. Troika doesn't have this option as they cna only see from an outsider's point of view how RT w/pause works (depending on what tim Cain has worked on in the past since he's an Ancient Game Dinosaur, lol). BIo has worked on the following games that have all been successful and all have RT w/pause combat: BG series, NWN, KOTOR, and now theya re currently working on DA as well as JE (which while an 'action" RPG also has pause n play). What RT w/pause games has Troika worked on? Zero. Case closed.


"So what? And Bio, allegedly, has always wanted to work on their own IPs. That didn't stop them from making good licensed adventure games"

1. It's RPG. Don't play such silly stuff if you want to be taken seriously.

2. BIO has also not pretended to not like working on D&D/KOTOR projects. They like to do both. Same with Troika which there wans't much of a problem with them making a D&D game because they wanted to. They didn't make soemthing they weren't really interesested in making it.

From what we've seen of Troika, they have had no interest in making a RT w/pause game yet now we're expected to believe they're excited about the prospect. It seems to be they are resigning themselves to the fact that tb games are a no no for them at least for now.

 

[Stark]

there's surprisingly little discussion on the following comment both here and over in NMA:

I’m not a system designer, though, so maybe I’m high. I like the idea, but some other people here have said that they think it would be a bit redundant to have both turn based and paused real time. What do you guys think? Would that be redundant?

I wonder... would most gamers bother to try out both? or they end up using RTwP, find it sufficient for most situations, and don't bother to use TB anymore? If that's the case the effort spent in TB is just not worth it. (taking into consideration the extra dev hour and testing/balancing resulting from it)

Personally I think the above scenario is the most likely. Those playing TB would swtich to RTwP to get past easy battles while those playing RTwP may not bother exploring TB options. What I'm saying is, the hybrid system will only benefit TB crowd, but not the other way round. (I'm assuming most people will play one mode or the other most of the time, and not alternate between the two frequently)

so what do you guys think? is it worth the extra dev hours to put in TB combat? what features would not translate well from RTwP into TB?

 

[Kamaz]

OK, lets say mechs arent bad. Lets say the fit the setting. Lets say its just atmospheric twist/swift screenplay move or smth. But then, I dont really understand why some of you dont like cars in Fallout. You wrote long essays and convinced me that cars in Fallout Universe is something unreal [you raised many weighty arguments based on scientific facts and presumptions]. Next thing is that you are happy with mechs. I dont you understand. I can live with the fact that setting is not reality, it is not obligatory needed to be realistic, but, hey, what have you against cars in Fallout if there's at least one model PowerArmour laying around? And working robots in labs? Cars where invented and constructed, say, hundred years ago from our time, I could immagine it piles up even more years till we make robots comparable to ones in Fallout, so, this means more complicated mechanisms are still working [and not only one, tens or hundreds of fully functional robots, without any maintance], but cars are most likely to be extinct...???

What I wanted to say, ok, let it be PA in Fallout, but dont even dare to bitch about cars if there is way much more complicated devices working smoothly. Let it be mechs in Troika's PA, but dont even try to argue against full spectrum of vehicles and even space-ships. Its setting, not reality.

And just shut up, baelstren. I dont like the idea of offsprings me myself at this certain point, but I can surely say there is great need for people like me. Otherwise you'll end up in Matrix hyping. [cyber dark side] Dont you now the Law of Nature - "every one is important and has its role"

========================
Speaking on other part of topic, I will express my humble and meaningless opinion too and Troika vs Bio War.
I have played Arcanum [finished], ToEE [couldnt force myself to finish] and am looking forward to [maybe] play Bloodlines.

I liked the idea of Arcanum, that was nice, original and I know lots of people love Arcanum for its story. I liked the interactive game-world of Arcanum, I know lots of people [mostly the previous ones] that liked that part too. I didnt liked their RPG system, the stats system and level limit. Still I just loved the option to learn different sciences. Being a chemist, mechanic, blacksmith - that was reality. ANd that was cool. I totally hated the story of Arcanum and the way it was told. "GO there. OK, now go there. OK. Now there. OK. He is alive. Now go void. OK. You finished the game. OK." But I liked many subquests. Arcanum gave me what I was looking for since Fallouts. Of course, it was not as good [combat sucked arse and that story thing], but it was definetly the closest match. And still is. In my rankings Arcanum comes right after Fallouts. I think the game introduced many RPG gameplay features never seen in cRPG before. Cannot tell for sure but that thing with clothes [and without], leaning in/out through windows and some other might be the ones. Therefor, I think, Arcanum deserves some coins from RPG community for advancing the genre.

ToEE was fantasy and I hate fantasy. I get bored with storyline as soon as I started the game. In Arcanum I was motivated to finish the game because I was fighting against goddamned magick and felt I can change something in that balance. Such motivation was what ToEE lacked, I guess. It was nice for those who adore DnD on cRPG, maybe, but for me it was not so interesting. Interaction was nice thing, of course, but I really wasnot motivated to interact or just play the game - after so BAD/silly intro it smelled cliche mile away. I stopped playing ToEE and the only thing I liked was graphics.

Bloodlines might be interesting, but its vanmpire setting which I hate as badly as fantasy. Therefor I hope for good gameplay and graphic values, but seriously doubt about game getting on my "best cRPGs shelf".

I have played BioWare games, but non I have finished. Maybe its that fantasy thing, but I got bored [despite the fact I tried to immerse into the game as hell] after some gameplay hours. I started with BaldursGate2, found it too uninteresting [and that typical fantasy story was sooooo fantasy and sooooo uninteresting and silly] and later decided to try first game of the series. It sucked little less, but even then I could force myself to spend more time on it. NWN I even havent tried judging from people that quite loved BG but found NWN boring and silly. The last try was KOTOR.

KOTOR was my last bastion of hope because it was not quite fantasy. Unluckily it was not sci-fi too, as it is defined as "space-opera" but there were space-ships and so on, so, it could be interesting, thought. Beginning was +/- OK until I learned that there are sword from "special" material that can withstand the heat(?) of lightsabre. What the holy fuck? Am I in SW universe or where? I am not great fan of SW, but hey, it goes too far. That was my first frustration. After a while I agreed with myself that game still be ok even if using DnD mechanics in SW universe. It sick, of course, but what else can you do. I stopped playing game as I learned

• I cannot get rid of my party members permanently;
• I have mostly bilinear [bad] [good] choices to make;
• I have JEDI abilities;
• I have to replay that silly Malloc movie[cannot skip it] every time I lose in that sick space shooter mini-game.
• I have to be JEDI.
• I can become one in less then 2 weeks.
• I am special.
• I am fucking JEDI and I cannot do nothing about it.
• I have to go to Tatooin [cannot spell that shit].

You see, BioWare can make good/decent cRPGs, Troika can do the same. But both of them lack something. Troika sucks at story, IMHO. The screenplay, not the world setting,which is very good mostly. Troika sucked in combat mechanics and RPG system partially, if we speak of arcanum. Bioware, however, sucks at storytelling as badly as Troika and for some reasons, even more. BW has problems with RPG gameplay - the lack of possibilities. And they put too much on epic-ism than well-built game-world with many options. KOTOR quests some where even nice, but I'd say Arcanum's or ToEE's I liked better. ANd ways to accomplish them were more.
Therefor I am looking towards Troika, but I think Bio is running up. If they want.

 

[Stark]

OK, lets say mechs arent bad. Lets say the fit the setting. Lets say its just atmospheric twist/swift screenplay move or smth. But then, I dont really understand why some of you dont like cars in Fallout. You wrote long essays and
...

look.

1) we still dunno nuts about the setting in this PA game to know if there're good explainations for mecha thingy there. what if the mecha is alien robot that caused the PA in the first place? would mecha robot in such a PA setting not make sense while cars do not work? how do you know cars do not work in this setting anyway? it didn't work in Fallout, but this is not Fallout.

2) the robot is probably placed there for demo purpose (same with the guy with the halbert thingy) and will not be featured in game at all. Seriously i dunno why you keep harping on this and dun let go.

I liked the idea of Arcanum, that was nice, original and I know lots of people love Arcanum for its story. I liked the interactive game-world of Arcanum, I know lots of people [mostly the previous ones] that liked that part too. I didnt liked their RPG system, the stats system and level limit. Still I just loved the option to learn different sciences. Being a chemist, mechanic, blacksmith - that was reality. ANd that was cool. I totally hated the story of Arcanum and the way it was told. "GO there. OK, now go there. OK. Now there.
bla bla bla

I didn't know this thread turned into a review of kotor/arcanum/toee game thread. Seriously I'm not even sure there's any relevance of all those reviews of yours in this thread.

I have played BioWare games, but non I have finished. Maybe its that fantasy thing, but I got bored [despite the fact I tried to immerse into the game as hell] after some gameplay hours

I'm surprised. I thought you're the guy who did the LARPing thread? And I gather you LARP in fantasy setting?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Troika is currently into developing games that they do not want, or like to develop. The result of these games can only be bad.

Just as I prefer to watch original movies where everyone involved is interested in creating, over movies and Adam Sandler 'Romantic Comedies' that are produced on a shoestring budget for the sheer sake of making money, I prefer to play games developed by creators who are interested in what they create and contribute to the game a pricesless element which garners it a 'lovingly crafted' prefix over games developed by less-than-inclined developers doing it for the sheer sake of cheap and dirty profit who probably won't even bother to stylize their game or add any finishing touches.

Beyond Steve Moret and that Huy guy at Troika, I don't think anyone else who worked on the project even cared about it enough to want to patch it up or polish it. Since Huy doesn't work there anymore, the only person I have any real 'respect' for at Troika these days is Steve, because his continued work and support for ToEE is proof of his devotion to his product, inspite of the fact that he doesn't even get paid to fix it up. While I respect Tim, Leon and everyone else for their past talents, I can't say I'm overly enthusiastic about their future products. But who knows? Maybe Bloodlines won't suck.

In many ways, Troika reminds me of Raven. Raven develops games based on licenses, for the mass market, for the sheer sake of easy profit, and not for any other reason. After their only original game, Hexen II (which was good), their games have been mostly mediocre, with very little polish, and absolutely no 'lovingly crafted' quality to them. Notice how bland and lifeless their games Elite Force, Soldier of Fortune II, and Jedi Knight 2 have been. Unlike Grey Matter Studios, which developed both the astoundingly good RTCW: Enemy Territory and the highly recommendable COD: United Offensive, Raven, much like Troika, just don't seem particularly keen on the games they develop and henceforth don't care about the polish or the end result, so long as it nets them a few more contracts and dollars. Raven, much like Troika, releases their games unfinished, unpolished and in some cases dreadfully unplayable.

Cases in point:
Troika
Arcanum's combat and character system. Undeveloped dialog for certain races. Dysfunctional 'multiplayer' mode that never worked inspite of their supposed 'forced' change to real time. That was their decision.
TOEE's uninteresting storyline, lame AI, short campaign, uninteresting characters and NPCs and bugs.

Raven
Heretic 2's 5-hour single player game.
Elite Force's boringly dreadful 6-hour single player game, uncreative design, lame missions.
SOF2's atrocious maps and pointless missions. 6-hour single player game. Useless 'features' like the random map generator that amounts to nothing more than 3 buildings on an open plain.
Jedi Knight 2's horrible jumping puzzles, horribly confusing 'crates in warehouse' maps, vent-mazes, an endboss that takes a single hit to kill. Absolute lack of challenge. Every single map in the game was literally a warehouse. Literally. From the start to finish, warehouses were all that you fought in. Warehouses full of crates. Warehouses in a variety of forms, but warehouses nonetheless.
Jedi Academy's lame story 'choices' that appear to you on the last mission and have absolutely no bearing on the gameplay whatsoever, or even the story. Copious amounts of Sith Adepts coming right at you, in lame, unchallenging manner. On the plus side, it had better gameplay than JK2.


Just the same, I'm not overly enthusiastic about Obsidian's ventures, as they seem only to be starting out and aren't yet developing games they want to develop - though it's probably arguable that KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 are games any developer would want to develop, and thus put full force into its creation. I am hoping that Avellone shares as much zeal about these two projects as his work and masterpiece, Planescape: Torment.

As for Bioware, they seem to be into developing new games that they are intent on developing, that they are happy to be working on, and are in fact, the culmination of their creative desires and expressions. In short? It's art.

 

[Stark]

Troika is currently into developing games that they do not want, or like to develop. The result of these games can only be bad.

Troika is more than one or two person. How do you know the rest of the company do not like combat with RTwP, or games with FPV?

also, it's a stretch to say they do not want or like to develop those games. the fairer thing to say is they prefer TB combat. Hence, the conclusion that the result of those games will only be bad is incorrect.

 

[Sol Invictus]

When the leads of of an organization or team aren't keen on a project, that disinterest and lack of focus extends downwards to everybody else working on it. It's simply common sense, Stark. If a military general isn't keen on a tactical decision, or decisive enough in any given situation, his men are going to suffer for it no matter how much zeal they may have towards the operation under the General's command.

Granted, in most professional militaries, this is seldom a problem, because Generals, being extremely disciplined men (for the most part, or at least in the war room), don't show any disinterest in the missions they design because they know how demoralizing it would be to everybody else involved.

Whereas, when you have a lead of a project or a company who speaks in an interview openly about his disinterest of a project, or how he'd much prefer to work on 'something else' other than what they are working on, this may demoralize everybody else involved and they may come to share the same apathy as he does, pertaining to the project. As such, they would not put much effort into their project, knowing full well that their efforts are likely going to be in vain, or futile, because the project is simply one developed for the sole purpose of making a quick buck rather than being actual works of art. They don't care how it comes out, so long as it's playable, and isn't too bad.

There is very little 'love' going into the development and crafting of the project, and it henceforth comes out as nothing more as a lifeless, soulless profit-generating entity... like any number of MTV's featured music albums - most of which are created for the sole purpose of income rather than expression. You would find more passion in the work of an independent artiste like Aphex Twin over most of the bands on MTV.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Jedi Academy's lame story 'choices' that appear to you on the last mission and have absolutely no bearing on the gameplay whatsoever, or even the story.

I agree on the gameplay aspect, but storywise there is a difference. If you go Light Side, then you destroy Tavion, along with Magna Rakos (sp?). If you go Dark Side, then you destroy Tavion and run away with the scepter.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Aphex Twin

Come to Daddy!

Unfortunately that's the only music of his I know.

 

[Stark]

Hmm... I dunno, Exitium. I concede the general impression we get here is that the lead guys there prefer TB combat implementation in PA game(which they failed to pitch the idea to any publishers), but beyond that, I won't make any further assumptions.

as for how ToEE turned out the mess it did... I'm sure you're in better position to make conclusion, so i'll not comment further.

I will see how Bloodlines turn out. Thus far the game vid shows a rather polished piece of work (though I'm not interested in the setting nor the RT combat) so it does have some promise.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Leon may very well prove his capabilities as a lead developer over Tim Cain's lacklustre work in TOEE. It remains for us to see, and be a little hopeful about it. As Saint noted in #fallout in-between his Sims 2 gaming sessions, if Bloodlines fails to live up to expectations, he (and likewise I) will have no further real interest in Troika.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Never said FO had a perfect balance; just that it had much better balance than TOEE which is why I ultimately enjoyed FO's combat more than TOEE's inspite of TOEE's kewl rules implenation. Options in combat are useless if they aren't needed for the majority of the game (5' step being the exception as it was actually useful).

I don't know. I always found myself having more of an easy time with the combat in Fallout. Maybe I just got it so much under my skin that at one point, I was The One or something.

Once again, it's not about honesty or lack of honest. I'm sure sverything in that articles is TRUE; but it reeks of them falling into line and doing something just because it will make money and/or get contracts; and not do what they want and still make money.(...)
With BIO, they *want* to make RT/wpause games or at least if they don't they surely hide their distaste for it pretty well. LOL Making games the way you want and still making money is the goal. It seems that Tropika has failed to meet that goal so they 'chickening' out.

Hey, maybe Bioware is telling the truth. Maybe they like making those games, and by coincidence, they just happen to bring in millions. But if they were in Troika's position, trying to pitch game concepts which were usually avoided by publishers, I don't think they'd keep the same attitude for long.

 

[Sol Invictus]

By bring up hypotheticals, Role-Player? Especially one that are completely contrary to reality? As a fact, we don't know what Bioware would do if it were in Troika's shoes - because the plain and simple reality is that it isn't. Judging Bioware based on a hypothetical situation is asinine, at best. It's like someone saying "What if your dad was a child molesterer, would you still love him then?" and if you said "No" to which he would reply, "Then you don't really love him."

It's a hypothetical situation that has no basis in reality or grounding in fact. It cannot be applied, and as such any conclusion one might get from posing such a hypothetical situation is completely irrelevent.

Someone once said to me, "Do you really trust your dad?" to which I replied "Yes, of course." which prompted him to say, "If you were on top of a ladder and your dad asked you if you trusted him and you said yes, and he'd ask you to jump down into his arms because you trusted him, would you do so?" He continued, "You would, and you would die, because the moment your mom called for him his attentions would be diverted elsewhere and you would fall to your death." He concludes, "This is why you cannot trust anyone."

I still think about it, and it irritates me. Not at the hypothetical father, of course, or even the situation, but at him, for being a complete fuckhead and coming up with something as asinine and cynical as that in the first place. No, I am not referring to you.

Consider the fact that it is a hypothesis, one could simply pose that a father who wanted his son to trust him or love him would not expect him to perform ridiculous stunts and furthermore, there is absolutely no fucking reason why the father would suddenly divert his attention elsewhere, as if the son under his responsibility meant nothing except to serve as an example of the person's twisted, fucked up cynical mind as to think such things about other people's fathers.

Just as well, and to a more valid point pertaining to your hypothetical situation, considering that it is a hypothetical situation, any number of possibilities or 'situations' may emerge. The thing about hypothetical situations is that they are, make-believe to which the word 'hypothetical' itself refers. They have no grounding, or basis in reality, and give no sane person a reason to act upon them or make any judgments or decisions pertaining to them or even equate them with any value whatsoever.

Do not argue hypotheses.

 

[Briosafreak]

Troika is currently into developing games that they do not want, or like to develop. The result of these games can only be bad.

Are you sure? Just asking. Are you sure that statement is correct?


I`m as surprised as Stark, can`t anyone reply to this please:

I’m not a system designer, though, so maybe I’m high. I like the idea, but some other people here have said that they think it would be a bit redundant to have both turn based and paused real time. What do you guys think? Would that be redundant?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

By bring up hypotheticals, Role-Player? Especially one that are completely contrary to reality?

That's one of the reasons why people use hypotheticals. You do know that, right?

As a fact, we don't know what Bioware would do if it were in Troika's shoes - because the plain and simple reality is that it isn't. Judging Bioware based on a hypothetical situation is asinine, at best.

Newsflash, I'm not trying to judge Bioware. I'm trying to determine if Volourn's judgement would apply to either company under similar situations.

The point here is that Volourn is saying that Bioware is making games they like making and manage to make them sell, and its all sunshine and flowers. Yet, when Troika finds themselves in a position where the games they like making aren't selling, and they decide to take a different approach, all hell breaks loose against them.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hypotheticals are pointless. Please don't bring them up, ever. Next?

 

[Vault Dweller]

"They also like PA settings, yet they didn't make one yet (as Troika). So?"

imo, Arcanum is close.

Arcanum is close to a PA setting? Next!

"Like I said, they also made it clear that they like PA, yet they made 3 non-PA games so far. "

And?

Trying to show you that preferences and credo aren't the same.

"Let me ask, do you think that combat modes are such a complicated concept that an untrained developer has no chance of getting it right? Come on."

Getting it 'right'? No. ...

Then, as you often say, case closed.

But, as we all know, experience makes a huge difference. BIO can take what they've elarend from their games and use what worked and throw out what didn't.

Then why KOTOR's combat was so painfully boring? According to your obviously flawed logic, after making the BG and NWN series they should have been able to come up with something better. Next! lol

"So what? And Bio, allegedly, has always wanted to work on their own IPs. That didn't stop them from making good licensed adventure games"

1. It's RPG. Don't play such silly stuff if you want to be taken seriously.

Taken seriously? Overrated. As for the rpg vs adventure, that's my opinion, so kindly fuck off

2. BIO has also not pretended to not like working on D&D/KOTOR projects.

Then why dropping both? Yeah, they are crazy about these settings....

 

[Volourn]

RP, the Anti Reality Man:

"I'm trying to determine if Volourn's judgement would apply to either company under similar situations."

If BIO was making games they did not want to make sure I'd be judging them harshly as well, and I'd be a lot more skeptical about their games as like Exitium pointed out, the best games tend to be made by those who are working o something. It's no wonder that Tim Cain's best work came on Fallout.

"And, no, I did not say everything was perfect in Bioland. Obviously, like any good business, they have to make concessions. That's a part of negotiations. However, for the most part, in BIO's case those concessions have not made it so BIO is making games they don't want to make.


VD, the Make Up Stuff Man:

"Then why KOTOR's combat was so painfully boring? According to your obviously flawed logic, after making the BG and NWN series they should have been able to come up with something better. Next! lol"

No. One should ask themslves what BIO's goal was for KOTOR's combat. It wans't to make a deep,a nd complex combat system ala NWN or TOEE. it was to make it a cinematic expereince and for the most aprt they accomplished that goal. KOTOR's combat while not overall challenging and while not very deep WAS a cinematic experience and was "cool".

Game over.


"As for the rpg vs adventure, that's my opinion, so kindly fuck off "

No. RPGCodex doesn't cover adventure games; only role-playing games. I'll take the official 'Codex naming of BIo games as RPGs over your nonsenical person opinion any day.

Next.


"Then why dropping both? Yeah, they are crazy about these settings...."

That doesn't prove they didn't enjoy working on those games. It just proves they want to try their hand at other stuff now. Nor have they said they'd *never* work on them again. Nice try though; but you lose.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Hypotheticals are pointless. Please don't bring them up, ever. Next?

Great answer, which not only willingly ignores that you contradicted yourself on their intended application, but one that also doesn't add anything to what you, or anyone else, said before. And its very mature as well. I should take a lesson or two from your rethoric, it would seem.

RP, the Anti Reality Man:

The dreaded nemesis of Mouthing Off Boy and What The Fuck Am I Blubbering About Kid!

If BIO was making games they did not want to make sure I'd be judging them harshly as well, and I'd be a lot more skeptical about their games as like Exitium pointed out, the best games tend to be made by those who are working o something. It's no wonder that Tim Cain's best work came on Fallout.

See, that's not only a straight answer, it was all I wanted to clear up. Next time, less implications that I'm not living in reality or that I am unaware of it, and more to the point, please.

Next.

 

[Kamaz]

2) the robot is probably placed there for demo purpose (same with the guy with the halbert thingy) and will not be featured in game at all. Seriously i dunno why you keep harping on this and dun let go.

Really? Must have missed that part, I have allways presumed that halber-guy comes right from the early Troika PA concept drawings we all have seen. ANd it seems kinda waste of time and efforts to make such 3D models just for testing. That robot looks post-apocaliptic, it has rust all over and its notable that it fits between all those junk-cars and flaming barrels like hand in a glow. Its too much for a coincidence, IMHO.

I just raised comparison with Fallout to point out that some of you have heavily critisized the cars in wastland but approve all those robots and PA. If we agree that games dont allways need to have authentic/realistic/scientific setting, I dont see reason why you find cars anapropriate but mechs ok. This far I spoke of Fallouts. About Troika's PA I dont know anything, so I will shut up, as you suggested. Just next time you bitch about something that seems inapropriate in that Troika's PA game, remember Fallout, PowerArmour and cars. I can live with mechs in post-apoc cRPG, I just dont like them as a concept and that was I was saying all the time.

And yes, my post turned too long because I wanted to bring up the gameplay aspects I liked and disliked in Trokas or BWs games. Sorry for that. Long things short - I find both developers having some weakneses, but still they can make games to wait. And I find Troika's style more hard-core while BW's - more soft-core. In different cases there are different priorities.

================================

I`m as surprised as Stark, can`t anyone reply to this please:

I’m not a system designer, though, so maybe I’m high. I like the idea, but some other people here have said that they think it would be a bit redundant to have both turn based and paused real time. What do you guys think? Would that be redundant?

And again, noone notices Briosfreak's important messages. This is the case when developer asks us for help [directly], but we question his abilties to make games.

In nmy opinion, this is the way to go. Just with one but - you need to elborate both combat systems equally. So, I want my stats affect combat in turn-based mode but I also want see some realistic â„¢ action in real-time. Unlikely most TB fans I think combat can be done very well even if it is in real-time. It could be great challange - to make good real-time combat. And ranged attacks work in real-time, just look at Crimsonland. Its an arcade and there are many differences, but still, its the real-time I'd love to see in Fallout if it gets that far. So, I guess it is possible to make good RT combat.

The hardest thing I guess is to balance two combat systems in one game so that playing real-time does not get easier then TB or vice versa. I would suggest TB/real-time choice before starting the game, I mean, when creating character. And whole game would be played in RT or TB, no balancing problems - these would just be different games/different gaming experiences.

This is my point of view - Troika should try making both - RT and TB. Even more, they should work hard on balancing the RT system so it is nice to play. Considering most of us like actions as well, I dont see reason why not introduce in cRPG real-time, just it should be done properly. Having both modes and equally good makes game even better and adds some replay-abiltiy value to it. Just important to make both of modes good, not like in Arcanums where RT was something like non-stop TB.RT has to have totally different attitude when created, its stand-alone system, none of both should inherit something from another.

Thats my ..erm..2 cents, so you say?

 

[Volourn]

"See, that's not only a straight answer, it was all I wanted to clear up. Next time, less implications that I'm not living in reality or that I am unaware of it, and more to the point, please."

Stop trolling, please.


Next.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"See, that's not only a straight answer, it was all I wanted to clear up. Next time, less implications that I'm not living in reality or that I am unaware of it, and more to the point, please."

Stop trolling, please.


Next.

Wow, a simple, honest response, together with a request for you to avoid defining my attitude in wrong ways and to keep a levelhead is trolling; yet, your implication that I called you a fanboy (when not only did I not called you one, and didn't even thought of you as such), and accusation that I'm trolling is perfectly fine.

I think I've seen who's trolling.

 

[Volourn]

Hey, you keep on the attack you keep on trolling and I keep calling you out on it. Your choice.