Grand Strategy Noob plays Dominions 5

[Malakal]

Well...

How much rp can you expect from a rainbow awake nerd realistically? About 60 from my tests (great sage). Plus you can't research and site search at the same time anyway. And he will be useless in battle until way late.

Meanwhile a monster Ormr has 27 rp plus can expand and kill armies when you get minimum research done.

The difference therefore is about 30 rp. Ask yourself, is that worth trading a very strong early game advantage for?

 

[Galdred]

Ormr has only 10 RP or so (inept researcher) in Balance mode, but you are right, a dragon would have been a good compromise.

 

[Malakal]

Ormr has only 10 RP or so (inept researcher) in Balance mode, but you are right, a dragon would have been a good compromise.

Research simply does not stack well with extra paths, I mean 2 rp for 1? Please...

Wasn't aware about the mod, odd nerf for Ormr. I would have to dig in the files to check what would be optimal, what is it called?

 

[Johannes]

In a disciple game one researcher can be a great choice. But you can't just halfass it and have somebody do whatever random research, but do it in a way that helps the whole team. Which is why you go for construction 4 with that guy. And choose the nation so that the native mages can forge gear (don't want to waste the disciples time too much doing that) for the whole team once you get there, also take into account what gems you have starting income in across the whole team. Then you can gear up the whole team, both the pretender and other disciples, and any recruitables you have. Though some baseline of skill and cooperation across the team would be necessary to pull this off sensibly.

Or you can use the nerd in the same way you'd use him in a solo game, beeline for some key spell(s) that makes your mages into killers asap.

Comparing the RPs to that of a monster isn't really relevant, if you take a monster you probably wanna fight with it rather than research. And monsters, at least a slotless, non-flying one like Ormr, aren't that good on the battlefield for very long, so after the early game the magic diversity of the rainbow is more useful. Though as a disciple, you can cram some magic diversity into a monster as well.


But it's hard to comment on any specifics when the mod you're using seems to depart from vanilla so much. Just looking at the pic from earlier page, Helkarls and Vanherses have 4 magic paths?

 

[Galdred]

It is true, I hadn't noticed how different they were from vanilla (Vanherse are listed as Air 1, with 100% chance of either Earth, Death, Blood on the recruitment screen, but mine typically have 4 total magic skill (eg: Air1, Earth 2, Bloood 1), which sounds weird now that you mention it.
The mod are Balance mod (but it seems to be the successor to CBM), and worthy_heroes.

 

[Malakal]

Ye found it. Pretty random changes but whatever even slightly buffs your mages is welcome. Unfortunately they are also more expensive...

 

[Galdred]

I can attack both Tien Chi and Xibalba, from the same team.
Which one should I focus on first?
How hard are they to handle for my sacred cavalry?

Tien Chi is probably the most logical opponent for me, as we have a large common border.
Theur army is 80 or so footmen + longbowmen + a few chariots/nobles and warriors of the 5 elements

Can the chariots trample cavalry?

 

[Galdred]

The game will be rebooted because the beefed up vanherses were caused by a mod bug resulting in the extra random paths being applied 3 times.
I think a rainbow research pretender would benefit me more this time, as the Ormr is a but redundant, and being the first in expansion (with Kalaisa being 3rd) attracted too much notice on our team.

What do you think?
Would a mixed pretender (dragon?) That can do a bit of everything work better?
Is the shape shifting dwarf any good?

 

[Malakal]

As I said I don't like rainbows, they are more useful for site searching than researching in the first place. Helheim does need diversity though so I'm not entirely opposed.

You have to talk to your team and discuss what your strategy is. Are you aiming for a mid-game timing? Early throne rush win? Late game (obviously not with Helheim but...).

For throne rush you want a monster that can beat throne defenders and be mobile, dragon is perfect for that role.

The dwarf shifts into a Ormr I think, I don't like that monster in the first place but Helheim is quite limited in the options it gets.

Anyway are the graphs open for everyone or what? How did everyone know you expanded well?

 

[Infinitum]

If you're going for an awake bless (the one you had kind of blew, mind) you probably want an awake expander. The Svartalf Mastersmith with E6 (for the armor bonus in Linnormr form) seems the safer bet for expanding, and big earth is always useful later on. You can always put boots of flying on him later on for mobility (mind that equipment in slots not present on the new form is permanently lost when shapeshifting).

 

[Malakal]

I don't think he was the pretender, Heljheim has awful choices for that anyway. He had disciple Ormr.

 

[AgentFransis]

I'm hardly an expert but some points:

- Helhirdings are great sacreds and can easily expand with next to no bless. They certainly don't need an awake bless or monster to help. A well rounded rainbow bless (defense, resists, blood surge etc.) is all they need to kick ass throughout the whole game. Practice in single player until you can reliably expand.

- You want some magic diversity from your pretender. You want nature to make vine shields for your thugs and later summon ivy kings for nature buffs. You may want some water to make frost brands. The Svartalfs can make shadowbrands but that's expansiveish and const6 or a fire random can make a firebrand but again, random and const6. Other than that higher air access can be good but not strictly needed since the Vanjarls can sabbath up to cast storm and fog warriors. Higher blood again, can save some empowering in blood before you can make the boosters. Also the nature can open up gift of health for a late game Tartarian factory if it comes to that.

- Personally I'm partial to rainbow pretenders. Imprisoned vs dormant is debatable but there's a lot of value in dormant to get your thugs geared out ASAP and get some site searching going. A titan is also a legitimate choice to get a supercombatant in the early-mid game which can potentially win you your first war by itself. Monsters suck.

- Your Dis can do corpse man construction. If you give them a lightning rod and a storm spool they can make 6 corpse constructs a turn for 1 air gem. They're great siege chaff (2.3 siege strength) and great battle chaff since they zap whoever touches them and are shock resistant so you can freely spam thunder strike and orb lightnings without zapping your front line.

- Helhirdings have spirit sight which means they're not affected by darkness, which you can cast. The Hangadrotts can also cast Wailing Wind (evo6) which can be brokenly strong.

 

[Galdred]

I don't have access to fire, astral, water and nature at all on any of my national mages I think, so I think I will go heavy on these paths(F3 A2 W2 E2 S4 D1 N4 B2?).
As I play the nation that needs blesses the least in our team (Ulm + Kaliasa pretender), I will play with whatever suits the other (probably dormant with small several blesses).

 

[AgentFransis]

I missed the fact that you're a disciple. I that case I don't really know. Son of Fenrer could be cool.

You have a fire random on Svartalfs.

 

[Galdred]

Good catch on the Svartalfs, thanks!
I think I will first focus on Construction research to provide my teammates with owl Quill and skull mentors. Ulm can also craft these, but they have very low skills on their mages, and it would be random, so he will take over to Const 6 and beyond.
so probably F2 A2 W2 E2 S4 D1 N4 B3 if fire is kind of covered (B3 to get Bloodstones faster).

 

[AgentFransis]

Yes definitely. Otherwise your research sucks. Don't forget to make hammers.
Then I would go evo2 so you can span lightning if you need to (several jarls spamming lightning strike can easily dispatch a monster) -> basic thug research -> blood1 for sabbaths and reinvig -> up to you. Your key mid game goals are: thunderstrike and orb lightning (evo5) and wailing winds (evo6), skellispam (ech5. A D4 or 5 hangadrott can spam out ungodly amounts of skellingtons) and fog warriors (alt7). Alt6 also unlocks soul vortex which with invaulnerability can make your hangadrotts fearsome thugs in a pinch. Though I would twiceborn them before just in case, they're too valuable to lose.

 

[Galdred]

I am also starting a MP game (not disciple) as Helheim.
My current pretender prototype is:

The idea is to rush Construction 4 for skulls(I know, it is an obsession, but I really think it works well for Helheim, as they can craft both hammers and have a lot of options for death site searching, and start with 4).

But I start next to Ubar, T'ien Chi, Xibalba and Ermor.
Do I have to take magic weapons for when I will have to face Ubar?
Twist Fate seems to be way more helpful for expanding.

I am also thinking on taking Turmoil 1, Luck 3, Magic 0 instead (the rationale being that gems would help me more than a few more RP when my pretender already adds 1, and the Skull mentors and owl quills will do most of the work).

 

[AgentFransis]

Your dominion is way too low. You won't be able to recruit many sacreds which are your best troops.
Ubar sacreds are ethereal so magic weapons are a good idea, yes.
Why awake? There's not much point. As I said before your ponies should have no trouble expanding with a dormant bless. I would take a dormant pretender at least and get better scales.

 

[Galdred]

I take awake to get a good research lead, and be able to churn skull mentors from turn 10 or so.
I take Dominions 4 because I expect my sacred to do the job even with such low numbers while I tech to things that can deal with the mid game (I mean, it's not like I can rush 12 players at once anyway).
It is based on this build.

Imprisoned with lots of small blesses would work too, but it would be very different (slow research start, and most of the work would be done by the sacred).

 

[AgentFransis]

I know that guide. Had a feeling that's what your going for. It could work of course but I feel it's too extreme.
You of course can expand with 3 pony parties but I meant more towards the mid game. You just won't have that many to fill your armies.

 

[Johannes]

Magic3 isn't really worth it at all with this build. You also really want cold resistance when it's just 1 more point away. Otherwise your guys will have the constant extra encumbrance in friendly dom. Magic scale also makes ubars guys stronger in your dominion, who you'll struggle against anyway without spirit sight or magic weapons.

 

[Galdred]

Magic3 isn't really worth it at all with this build. You also really want cold resistance when it's just 1 more point away. Otherwise your guys will have the constant extra encumbrance in friendly dom. Magic scale also makes ubars guys stronger in your dominion, who you'll struggle against anyway without spirit sight or magic weapons.

That is a good point. Magic 3 is negligible if my pretender does most of the research, before I go heavy on research tools.

Should I take magic 0 or even drain 2((and or the points either to go back to cold 1 or luck)?

This build depends more on gems after all.

So this new version is especially made to deal with Ubar:

With heat Resistance + magic weapons and spirit sight, it should be relatively easy to deal with them.
I hate having neither barkskin nor twist fate, though.

And here is the map:

Here is the version with Barkskin, and tanked luck scale.

I could take Blood Surge+poison res instead of barkskin, but barkskin is more useful against elites, no?

 

[Malakal]

Eh this bless does absolutely nothing. Protects you from elemental magic? Still dies to entangle effects. Elemental attacks are weak as is.

Strongly advise reconsidering this idea.

 

[Malakal]

I tested and you can do awake mono with temper flesh regen and magic weapons and usable scales or awake idol with awe regen usable scales. And you can research with them too.

 

[Galdred]

Which is Temper flesh? Hard skin? So E6S4N7?
Are fire shield, or Heat/Cold Aura worth getting?