Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil

[Morality Games]

Legion is south park tier joke. When you meet Caesar you see that he is a self absorbed narcist who doesn't give a shit about the nearest person to his immediate left or right

He's also a hypocrite. He uses medical science to stay alive that he outlaws for the rest of the Legion because it nurtures weakness.

Most other top-ranking Legionnaires seem to be true believers, however, to the extent that it's kind of a problem because despite being a mentally ill radical Caesar is the most pragmatic of the bunch.

 

[Tigranes]

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

Except in any historical example of this, it very quickly turns out that "we whip you hard just like we whip ourselves hard" never lasts very long. At some point, an aging Caesar lives in opulence and his favourites live by different rules. Or Caesar maintains it, but once he's gone it quickly falls apart. Or the general pattern is maintained while the Legion keeps up its colonial conquests, but if it stalls for any reason (military challenges, run out of nearby people to enslave, etc), then again things fall apart. Not that any social system is ever static - but these kinds we often see disintegrate faster.

That's less a suggestion that the Legion are evil and more an observation that wisdom and honor the Legion believes in and practices aren't sustainable in the long term.

That said, there is a small possibility the system can survive (it did with the Spartans for a very, very long time).

Sure, I don't have a stake in the evil debate, I don't think it's a great frame. But I wouldn't separate it like that. If the Legion's "wisdom and honour" is based on an ideal that they have no reasonable plan for fulfilling beyond the short term, then it's simply not a very good system, and talking about how 'fair' it is doesn't carry much water. We're talking a fictional faction that we only see a very small glimpse of in the actual game, so it's hard to say whether this is more of a "actually works pretty nicely but may fall down after a century" or closer to "eh most of the time it's just bunch of dudes looting and pillaging everyone who they can get their hands on".

And the whole Caesar medicine thing is a case in point - would Caesar abdicate, or even, be mutilated and exiled by his rivals, if the medical procedure leaves him weakened? In a way, he might have to reckon with one lingering question from the actual Romans he loved so much, which is whether they lost a great deal of political vitality and strong leadership the moment they turned to dynastic inheritance.

 

[laclongquan]

Either you bois have terribly standard for moral, or you are trolling. With people on Net I can never tell~

"Even if I massacre entire cities, kill innocent bystanders, trade people like goods and cattle stocks, crucify them on the cross like so much ragdoll, as long as I wear a snazzy uniform, I am still a good man, my people still a good people."

:haha:

Also shit English grammar Past Modals is a weasel. I dont do business with weasels.

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

It's a very draconian philosophy that is based on the concept that nobody is really innocent because everyone engage in continual, small acts of evil (out of prejudice, self interest, and incuriousity). In Caesar's view, the reason why the bombs happened at all was because civilization (as in, everyone in it) become jingoistic, egotistical, and extremely conceited. Destroying the world was the collective failure of an entire society and its values due to being capitalistic and self indulgent, so, insane levels of harshness and cruelty are necessary to break everyone's ego and rebuild them as disciplined and organized society that would never drop the bombs (starting with the fact they wouldn't rely on technology to live in the first place).

They have a concept of honor and wisdom (an insight into history) they believe is necessary to stop humans from destroying the world again, and so they enforce it brutally.

However, they also enforce it against and among themselves. The Legion could monopolize technology to live in luxury, but they live according to an ancient world standard of comfort in a manner comparable to the Spartans because they think that's what needed to "keep it real."

That's not to say that the Legion is ultimately correct (they probably aren't), but they have a point. If ordinary NCR citizens can't keep their politicians accountable (because not enough of them put the effort into organizing or see it as their responsibility to do so), then how can they stop them from dropping nuclear bombs at some point in 300 years? The culture of glib irresponsibility that Caesar hates has already taken root.

Boy, I dont do weasel words. I do atrocities, though. The one who perform atrocities is evil. The more you do, the more evil you are. NO EXCEPTION.

No highmind sounding philosophy is going to cover for atrocity.

No personal moral is going to save you.

The only standard that judge you is atrocity level.

By this standard every Legion member who perform atrocity is going to pay for that with their lives. Which mean most of the adults because even if they dont kill, rob, rape, pillage they would abet the ones who do knowingly.

Most of the children also pay though, but at least not at that extreme level. In Shame their whole life, for a start. No innocent clause is going to save them because that clause assume no responsibility.

 

[Commissar Draco]

And collectivism wins, 100% of the time.

Individualism wins 100% of the time, in a single-player solo-character game with unlimited save/reload.
Even if the Legion wins it's not because of their own strengths, but because the Courier wants them to win.

Legion was winning before Courier came citing the wiki here:

By 2281, Caesar's Legion has reestablished its power in the west, rebuilt its army, and has slowly encroached on the city of New Vegas. They continue to contest NCR in the Mojave region, destroying several NCR bases such as Ranger Station Charlie and Camp Searchlight, overrunning the NCR town of Nelson, decimating the town of Nipton and creating unease and terror across the region. They also would destroy Camp Forlon Hope if PC would not intervene, its in fact NCR who rely on Courier to fix all of their problems not Legion.

They in effect cut the Las Vegas from NCR with other route blocked by Cazadores, Deathclaws and Hostile Mutants.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

NCR who rely on Courier to fix all of their problems not Legion

Imagine being such a pussy faction one single guy can undo all your work.

 

[Commissar Draco]

NCR who rely on Courier to fix all of their problems not Legion

Imagine being such a pussy faction one single guy can undo all your work.

Imagine Fallout Nev Vegas being Role Player Game, the crucified tribal detected here Comrade.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

NCR who rely on Courier to fix all of their problems not Legion

Imagine being such a pussy faction one single guy can undo all your work.

Imagine Fallout Nev Vegas being Role Player Game, the crucified tribal detected here Comrade.

Naw bro, Jesus ain't butthurt.

 

[Mark Richard]

But this only means Caesar knows what he is doing is horrible and completely unnecessary (the massacre at Nipton crosses the line of "civlization" into barbarity: why the hell murder the NCR soldiers and Nipton's population when the actual criminals are the Powder Gangers and the Mayor planning to set up a trap?)

Keep in mind Nipton was near the front lines. The Legion's main intention was to demoralize the inhabitants of the NCR outpost a stone's throw away from town (they let you carry the message).

We know what the NCR and Caesar's Legion do to their prisoners: the NCR puts them to work, gives them actual clothes, sustenance, and beds (NCR Correctial Facility). Caesar's Legion on the other hand decapitates them, crucifies them, forces them as slaves (women and children) or forces them into battle (Legionnaires).

Warhammer 40K's humans harvest the organs of prisoners to use in cybernetic servitors, yet still I hesitate to call them evil. They are a product of an environment which threatens them with extinction. Fallout's environment is no better. Underneath the jokey references is a savage land of radioactive monsters and scarce resources. The choices players make will determine which faction becomes the first major civilization since the bombs dropped. Caesar's Legion emulate a tried & tested empire that stood for a thousand years, and the NCR emulate a system of governance that devastated the planet in the first place. If you approach this from a dispassionate historical perspective, surely The Legion are the logical choice.

You can not manage to instill a new identity without a firm fist, nor can you keep order. The Legion territory in Arizona has no problems with raiders, meanwhile NCR is plagued with them and many other problems that would largely be solved if they weren't a democracy. The harsher the punishment, the less likely people are to cross the line.

Nipton was a town of cowards, worse yet, a town of individuals, all looking out for themselves. When it comes down to it, Legion vs NCR isn't a battle between evil vs good, but collectivism vs individualism.
And collectivism wins, 100% of the time.

Exactly. The Legion's brutal erasure of other cultural identities ensures mankind remains unified. The NCR's individual freedoms and tolerance plants the seeds for their own destruction as incompatible ideologies start chipping as its structural integrity from the inside.

To amend a quote:

"As long as there are differences, we will tear ourselves apart fighting each other. We need one culture. Culture! Culture! One goal. Goal! Goal! One people... to move forward to our destiny. Destiny.'

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

The NCR's individual freedoms and tolerance plants the seeds for their own destruction as incompatible ideologies start chipping as its structural integrity from the inside.

Ah, yes, "freedom and tolerance" are dangers for humanity, not killing entire town for moralfag reasons ("cuz they sell sex and shit" - does not count as rational reason to send troops through dangerous wastelands) on the planet where probably 0.001 % of human population remain (worldwide) after nuclear war only to live life of misery from hunger and thirst, while waging war against super mutants, ghouls, death claws and cassadors. Legion's rule is a threat for survival of humanity and Caesar's rule will leave only ruins filled with mutants.
Damn, legion supporters are such idiots.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Caesar's Legion emulate a tried & tested empire that stood for a thousand years, and the NCR emulate a system of governance that devastated the planet in the first place.

This statement is true only in a vacuum. I'd argue that it's plenty easy to have an uninterrupted empire when the competition can't nuke you.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

The more I think about Legion, the more it reminds me of an weaponized SJWs.
I mean they do have similarities:
1) Legion was created by religious nutjob, who was fanatic even by standards of his religion (SJWs suspiciously have many similarities with puritanism)
2) Legion has a problem with sex if it does not conform their rigid views on sex culture.
3) Caesar ready to kill/torture people by any means for distant goal that is impossible to achieve.
4) Dumb, impractical uniforms.
5) Creators of Fallout Frontier called Enclave as "evul fascists" yet had zero problems with Legion and slavery.
6) Legion has problems with usage of guns
7) Legion hates technology, yet their leader uses it freely.
8) Legion has no mercy to whom they deemed to be enemies.

And many, many more.

People who defend Legion methods are just losers who was either born too late or early to join SJWs in their fanatic crusade and trying to find their own brand of fanaticism.

I would be funny to look at comments of dictatorship supporters if Legion was full of rainbow haired trannies, because all idiots who wrote "society need strong hand" would be crying like bitches. Because they hypocrites and like fist in their asses only if it's "right sexuality and color".

 

[Sweeper]

Spoiler

And yeah I know it's GoT, but the first season was pure incline and Robert Baratheon was based and redpilled so shut the fuck up.

Also "you're just right wing SJWs" isn't an argument dumb-dumb. Muh horseshoe theory, kek. Embarrassing.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

Also "you're just right wing SJWs" isn't an argument dumb-dumb. Muh horseshoe theory, kek. Embarrassing.

If you refuse something as argument - it is not automatically counts as truth. In the same vein, I could refute your youtube video from shitty tv series. Building theory not as embarrassing as using shitty tv series to proof practicality of your no less shitty political views, btw.

 

[Sweeper]

If you refuse something as argument - it is not automatically counts as truth. In the same vein, I could refute your youtube video from shitty tv series. Building theory not as embarrassing as using shitty tv series to proof practicality of your no less shitty political views, btw.

I'm not building my theory using a TV show, I'm simply using Bobby B's speech as an example of collectivism vs individualism. Historically even liberal societies in times of war became collectivist, with individual rights and freedoms going out the window, the simple reason being they wouldn't survive the war if everyone was looking out for their own interests.
You seem to have problems with processing information, which is why you also unironically use the horseshoe. If two groups with polar opposite ideologies clash using the same methods, that doesn't mean they're the same or even similar, as the results and the established order of the winning side will vastly differ from their polar fucking opposite. It's like saying cops and criminals are the same thing because they both kill people on occasion.
Goddamn dude...

 

[Ol' Willy]

I like to remind people that Rome greatest time were during the Republic; Empire has brought forward such wonderful people as Caligula, Commodus and Elagabalus

 

[Sweeper]

I like to remind people that Rome greatest time were during the Republic; Empire has brought forward such wonderful people as Caligula, Commodus and Elagabalus

It was also more collectivist as a republic, where citizenship was only given to inhabitants of Rome or the Italian peninsula, as opposed to all the barbarians within the empire.
Not to mention the fact that dictators could be appointed in times of crisis, and they'd have final say in matters.
I'm not even gonna mention Pax Romana.

 

[thesecret1]

I like to remind people that Rome greatest time were during the Republic; Empire has brought forward such wonderful people as Caligula, Commodus and Elagabalus

It also brought the Five Good Emperors, for example. As for the likes of Caligula, most of what we know about him was written either long after his death (as in decades or even centuries), or was written by people who hated him and thus had a vested interest in painting him in a negative light.

 

[Commissar Draco]

I like to remind people that Rome greatest time were during the Republic; Empire has brought forward such wonderful people as Caligula, Commodus and Elagabalus

It also brought the Five Good Emperors, for example. As for the likes of Caligula, most of what we know about him was written either long after his death (as in decades or even centuries), or was written by people who hated him and thus had a vested interest in painting him in a negative light.

Aka Senatorial class, only Caesar escaped their smear job partly because he was so popular and partly cause he left his own written records.

 

[Rinslin Merwind]

I'm not building my theory using a TV show, I'm simply using Bobby B's speech as an example of collectivism vs individualism. Historically even liberal societies in times of war became collectivist, with individual rights and freedoms going out the window, the simple reason being they wouldn't survive the war if everyone was looking out for their own interests.You seem to have problems with processing information, which is why you also unironically use the horseshoe. If two groups with polar opposite ideologies clash using the same methods, that doesn't mean they're the same or even similar, as the results and the established order of the winning side will vastly differ from their polar fucking opposite. It's like saying cops and criminals are the same thing because they both kill people on occasion.
Goddamn dude...

It was also more collectivist as a republic, where citizenship was only given to inhabitants of Rome or the Italian peninsula, as opposed to all the barbarians within the empire.
Not to mention the fact that dictators could be appointed in times of crisis, and they'd have final say in matters.
I'm not even gonna mention Pax Romana.

You claim that I have problems with processing of information, but you messing around with terms like "collectivism" and "individualism" either without understanding meaning of these words or in wishful thinking that you can categorize all societies in two categories.
I am gonna put subject in this way - every "collective" consists of bunch "individuals" with their goals and ambitions in mind.
Societies is individualistic and collectivist at the same time, because individuals like their own plans and ambitions, BUT they cannot survive without other people aka "collective". "Collective" in the other hand requires "individuals" to sustain, improve and expand itself. There no such things as society without individuals or individuals without society, at least in human civilization. The difference between societies is how they threat each member of it and how much impactful voice of such member on societal matters.
And whole Legion is bunch of slaves under elderly megalomaniac destined to spend their entire lives in constant war and fear. This society built around conquest, not participate in conquest because there any need. Even if these bunch of idiots with shitty uniforms and swords will win against NCR - they will not able to build any society that is better than "evul NCR" because for this they will need ability to think for themselves, which would be a problem for slaves. One thing is to wage a war, another is to live in time of peace.

It also brought the Five Good Emperors, for example.

Not good enough to save the Rome or at least sustain it as long as republic did.

 

[Sweeper]

China is BTFOing the US in front of your eyes, and you still don't get it, probably cause you don't want to.
Either way, you're wrong.

 

[Sigourn]

Keep in mind Nipton was near the front lines. The Legion's main intention was to demoralize the inhabitants of the NCR outpost a stone's throw away from town (they let you carry the message).

"Sending a message" by killing innocent people is still evil. Remember, this is all we are arguing here. I've already explained that the Legion's military prowess and such means jackshit when the player can singlehandedly tip the Second Battle of Hoover Dam in the NCR's favor.

Caesar's Legion emulate a tried & tested empire that stood for a thousand years, and the NCR emulate a system of governance that devastated the planet in the first place. If you approach this from a dispassionate historical perspective, surely The Legion are the logical choice.

I'd say this idea (which is also House's idea) makes very little sense as the Great War wasn't waged by the U.S. against the U.S.. It was waged between two superpowers. Nothing would stop a Caesar-like dictator from nuking a different country (and being nuked by said country as well).
House's idea makes "sense" in that he is supposed to be a genius and thus no one should pose a threat to his existence. Meanwhile, nothing stops a different legion from rising up from the ashes, and for all intents and purposes the NCR is said legion: another country to wage war against. Only difference with the old world is that neither the NCR or Caesar's Legion have nuclear warheads.

Hell, at least House knew how to arm himself and Vegas against nuclear warheads. I'd much rather go with him.

 

[Mark Richard]

Ah, yes, "freedom and tolerance" are dangers for humanity, not killing entire town for moralfag reasons ("cuz they sell sex and shit" - does not count as rational reason to send troops through dangerous wastelands) on the planet where probably 0.001 % of human population remain (worldwide) after nuclear war only to live life of misery from hunger and thirst, while waging war against super mutants, ghouls, death claws and cassadors. Legion's rule is a threat for survival of humanity and Caesar's rule will leave only ruins filled with mutants.
Damn, legion supporters are such idiots.

Again, this is the front line of a war we're talking about. Nipton was a calculated act of barbarism to instil fear in an enemy. If your only experience with the Legion was the town of Nipton, then you'll be stuck with the misconception that they're a bunch of loonies who're going to wipe out 95% of the population for failing to meet their insanely high standards. Further interactions reveal Caesar plans to conquer the NCR and merge its civilian infrastructure with The Legion's military. The faction is about stability and survival at any cost. Population growth is enforced through child quotas. Men are disposable tools, women are baby-making factories. They're not going to enact a genocidal campaign against NCR territories - it runs counter to their mandate.

"Sending a message" by killing innocent people is still evil. Remember, this is all we are arguing here.

I don't deny the act is evil, but does that make The Legion evil? My argument questions whether morality even applies if your environment is as hostile as Fallout's and the survival of the human race is at stake. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

I've already explained that the Legion's military prowess and such means jackshit when the player can singlehandedly tip the Second Battle of Hoover Dam in the NCR's favor.

The player is basically god. The questions you should be asking is who would win without your intervention, and do they have a future. Helping the NCR win is like replacing the battery of a life support system for a terminally ill patient. Logistical incompetence, corruption, poor morale - everything I saw of the NCR in New Vegas does not inspire confidence. I got the sense that it'll eventually collapse in on itself, win or lose.

Meanwhile, nothing stops a different legion from rising up from the ashes, and for all intents and purposes the NCR is said legion: another country to wage war against.

Nothing except an environment that wants the human race gone. It took a miracle for the NCR and The Legion to reach the civilization stage of development.

 

[Sigourn]

I don't deny the act is evil, but does that make The Legion evil? My argument questions whether morality even applies if your environment is as hostile as Fallout's and the survival of the human race is at stake. It's easy to be a saint in paradise.

I mean, yeah? The NCR does not do such things. And in the case of NCR corruption, you will find no NCR NPCs in the game defending such acts, whereas every Legion soldier is incredibly supportive of the Legion's evil tactics.

The player is basically god. The questions you should be asking is who would win without your intervention, and do they have a future. Helping the NCR win is like replacing the battery of a life support system for a terminally ill patient. Logistical incompetence, corruption, poor morale - everything I saw of the NCR in New Vegas does not inspire confidence. I got the sense that it'll eventually collapse in on itself, win or lose.

The game does send the message that the Legion will eventually collapse as well. Notice that, without the Courier, Caesar's tumor wouldn't be cured. That's what the game implies. Actually, I think the game heavily implies that whichever side you choose, that side will prosper (with the exception of Independent).

Plus, as I said, the Legion carries plot armor with them. The idea of no one being able to find Captain Curtis delivering messages through the fucking radio at the radio station is just... retarded.
Let's remember how that quest goes:

1. You are told to speak to Captain Curtis to help capture the spy.
2. Curtis tells you to speak with Boyd and Contreras.
3. Boyd tells you there have been break-ins at the radio tower all the time.

And you know what Boyd says? "It's probably just a meeting spot for a steamy military base love affair. But it bothers me that they didn't break in. It means they have an access code. Most soldiers around the base don't have that."

And that's the end of it. It really feels like Obsidian wrote the NCR as the most retarded faction to have ever existed, and this isn't good writing, this is awful writing. Because they had to make a faction so stupid as to make the dumbest mistakes, and this is not just about "NCR, the faction", but rather "every member under the NCR is equally retarded", and that's crap. Same thing goes for Fantastic: it only takes you one chat with him to know he knows absolutely nothing of what he is doing, and yet no one does nothing because... the NCR is meant to be retarded.

I'm surprised Obsidian didn't portray all soldiers as lacking the minimum dexterity needed to fire a gun.
Everything else about the NCR ("poorly trained", "low morale") is fine. Them being complete retards from top to bottom isn't.

Nothing except an environment that wants the human race gone. It took a miracle for the NCR and The Legion to reach the civilization stage of development.

There was no such environment when the Great War happened. The U.S. and China didn't mean to wipe mankind off the surface of the planet; it was just a byproduct of them wanting to destroy the other. But as WarGames shows, global thermonuclear war is a game that can't be won.

 

[BarãodoDesterro]

States (modern definition) express themselves by two dimensions: fundamental rights (primarily) and production model (normally ways to achieve the fundamental rights). Fundamental rights and production models — even the definition of state — are technologies.

Authoritarian governments tend to mitigate liberty. How? Liberty, as we didactically elaborate, are two different things: “ancient” liberty (liberty to vote and be voted) and “contemporary” liberty (liberty to do anything that is not prohibited by law [the legalistic definition of law]; religion, beliefs, reunion). We generally agree that authoritarian governments tend to control “ancient” liberty and mitigate “contemporary” liberty (not much about what people can believe, or, generally, do, but what people can express).

Totalitarian governments don’t believe in liberty: their fundamental rights are not the liberal ones.

When one says fundamental rights, one does not mean the standard formal catalog (every single civilized country more or less copy those), but the "intentions" and "ways" of the state.

As technologies, it is hardly appropriate to project them on older and ancient institutions.

From what is available (I have not played "Fallout 2" yet), people from "Fallout” universe never developed third generation rights: probably real world "Resource Wars" will never happen — we don’t know if third generation rights are enough, but they are something.

That said, it is hard to measure if NCR is doing anything wrong: corruption and inefficiency (supposedly problems) may lead to authoritarianism, but that is not always the case (and authoritarian periods often lead to renewed democratic fervor); they are yet to face their “1970s”, so we may know if they can develop the technology (third generation rights) to not destroy themselves.

Mr. House does not have and does not seem to wish a state. He simply is not concerned about sovereignty and people: one of the possibilities, for example, is to destroy the Dam, because he already has what he needs to fulfill his personal objectives (Lucky 38 has a reactor).

He is aggressive, nonetheless: he could use the pulse gun technology discovered by the Courier to easily prepare for a Brotherhood of Steel uprising; instead, he chooses to wipe them out before they could even think about destroying him.

Legion does not make sense. For a fact, one is able to bring past symbols (and it is efficient) to solidify a new state, but that does not imply bringing their fundamental rights and production model. "Rome" (Republic and Empire) was never a totalitarian regime (primarily, because they don't know what totalitarianism is; secondly, because they did not have the material possibility to impose this degree of control; thirdly, because they would find the affairs rather dull).

Caesar is using modern technologies of control to impose archaic "intentions" and "ways". Mind me, not the "intentions" and "ways" of immortal "Rome": "Rome" (not only the city) was about a free interchange of ideas and things; slaves and violence were standard inefficient ways of control throughout all civilizations, they never were the objectives of “Rome”. If he used modern technologies of control towards fascism, his faction would make much more sense (he could even blatantly say Legion was a direct descendant of "Rome").

Yes Man is no better: Mojave controlled by an easily manipulable software and a barely literate postman.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Nippton is like firebombing of Dresden. Legion did it because it could; instilling fear and crush the will to resist.