Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil

[rusty_shackleford]

Humans never stopped being tribal animals, and even if we pretend it's not true, we don't care about other tribes as much as our own

Hmm. Then how would you explain various multi-kulti, pro-minorities, pro-diversity and other scumbag movements?

indoctrination from early childhood

 

[Morality Games]

Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil

Don't think the game represents them as "evil" per se. Evil is kind of elusive in the morally gray wasteland. They have their own concepts of honor and wisdom. Very brutal concepts, but most of the Legion follows them consistently (Caesar being a notable exception) even if it is difficult or inconvenient to do so.

Their faction's philosophy is couched in an extremely pessimistic view of human potential, however.

Mr. House's view is cynical, and the NCR is optimistic (but also the most difficult to achieve, and therefore checkered with hypocrisy).

Humans never stopped being tribal animals, and even if we pretend it's not true, we don't care about other tribes as much as our own

Hmm. Then how would you explain various multi-kulti, pro-minorities, pro-diversity and other scumbag movements?

They're based on an extremely perverted misappropriation of an ancient moral truth (under the sky, all men are brothers, basically).

The problem is that you have to have the inner spiritual cultivation of a saint to observe that moral appropriately. In ordinary people, it generally leads to ideological calamity because ordinary people generally fail to comprehend that being weak or exploited doesn't equivocate to being virtuous or deserving of power yourself. Most 'victims' of history would have done the same to their 'oppressors' if the opportunities had been reversed (and usually did at some point before ultimately being defeated).

Saints don't lose sight of the fact that 'oppressors' have the potential to be a force for good and that 'victims' have an equal capacity to be evil.

 

[laclongquan]

Either you bois have terribly standard for moral, or you are trolling. With people on Net I can never tell~

"Even if I massacre entire cities, kill innocent bystanders, trade people like goods and cattle stocks, crucify them on the cross like so much ragdoll, as long as I wear a snazzy uniform, I am still a good man, my people still a good people."

:haha:

Also shit English grammar Past Modals is a weasel. I dont do business with weasels.

 

[Impressive Organ]

I'm a Caesar's Legion man myself because I'm exclusively attracted to forbidden homosexual trysts. The other guys think it's a bit odd when they invite me to break in the new female slaves with another night of gang rape and I pass up the offer by saying I'm just too tired from the day's crucifixions, but they don't suspect what my true motives are. The only thing that concerns me. Being balls deep in the houndmaster's exquisitely tight boipucci, knowing it would be a horrific end for us both if we were ever caught. Just the thought of it makes me swell with pre-cum under my armored skirt.

 

[Sigourn]

Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil.

The only reason they may be seen that way is probably because the faction didn't get enough content. You hear the horror stories from NCR soldiers practically the whole game and by the time most players got to the Legion territory they already have an established opinion.

But if you pay attention the game also shows the good sides of Legion and corruption of the NCR leadership. Most gamers just had to have a villain in the story, when there isn't any.

For starters:

• We know what the NCR and Caesar's Legion do to their prisoners: the NCR puts them to work, gives them actual clothes, sustenance, and beds (NCR Correctial Facility). Caesar's Legion on the other hand decapitates them, crucifies them, forces them as slaves (women and children) or forces them into battle (Legionnaires).
• We know what the horror stories of both sides are. Corruption from the NCR, given their citizens' way of life, hardly sounds as horrific as life under the Legion banner, where you are effectively stripped of all free will if you don't want to get hacked to death by Legionnaires.

Caesar's Legion is a cool and daring faction. But it would have arguably been a better faction (for the purpose of siding with them, not for the purpose of discussion) if their members didn't behave as teenage edgelords. At one point I came believe the reason they act so edgy is because they have been trained by Caesar to be edgy to keep their heads cool when facing the horrors of their actions. You wouldn't want people crucifying and decapitating others if they had second thoughts about it. But this only means Caesar knows what he is doing is horrible and completely unnecessary (the massacre at Nipton crosses the line of "civlization" into barbarity: why the hell murder the NCR soldiers and Nipton's population when the actual criminals are the Powder Gangers and the Mayor planning to set up a trap?).

At the end of the day we can argue all we want about the Legion being evil or not. The truth is I've only sided with them once, and that was because I wanted to do their quests. As an NCR member, it was just easier for me to blow their heads on the spot, something which I wouldn't do to NCR soldiers when playing a Legionnaire.

 

[thesecret1]

"Even if I massacre entire cities, kill innocent bystanders, trade people like goods and cattle stocks, crucify them on the cross like so much ragdoll, as long as I wear a snazzy uniform, I am still a good man, my people still a good people."

I mean, that's pretty much every single ancient civilization right there. True, not all of them crucified, many chose different models of execution, but they very much did go full vae victis on their enemies. The notion that you should care for someone you never met and is not even your countryman just because he is the same species is a modern invention. Even christianity only extended the humane treatment on other christians, and had no issues with trading in pagan slaves, for example (of course, that was the old christianity, not the modern imitation of it). You are assuming that current day perception of morality is the only valid one (which, to be fair, tends to be the belief of every generation throughout the ages. Everyone believes their current day perception of morality is the only correct one, which just goes to show that morality is a subjective concept.)

 

[Silentstorm]

Also, they look cool or are different and more convinced they are right and carry on like that which can make people accept a lot, if they don't already agree with Caesar, it's not something unique to Fallout or western media.

From Japan there is Gundam, a lot of people say it's about war where both sides are portrayed as being equal...not quite always, the first series had Zeon absolutely being the bastard faction that happened to have some decent and honorable soldiers, but they had cool outfits, cooler mechas and were full of conviction to a point where the leader of the Zeons taking being compared to Adolf Hitler as an amazing compliment passed by viewers to a point where nowadays Zeon is portrayed as heroic by writers and fans...you know, despite the hypocrisy, genocide and tons of war crimes they commit while screaming about being honorable and how dare the other side not quit when they do stuff that is the literal equivalent to gassing entire colonies or dropping several nukes on Australia.

Yeah, those are all things that happen, again, you'd be suprised as to how often they are thought of as cool heroes just for looking better, i can absolutely believe people can look at Caesar and think he's right just for them having a cool roman aesthetic.

 

[Sweeper]

We know what the NCR and Caesar's Legion do to their prisoners: the NCR puts them to work, gives them actual clothes, sustenance, and beds (NCR Correctial Facility). Caesar's Legion on the other hand decapitates them, crucifies them, forces them as slaves (women and children) or forces them into battle (Legionnaires).

Uh-huh. And tell me, what did the leniency the NCR showed to the criminals result in? Open rebellion, because they were dumb enough to supply them with ample amounts of dynamite as well. Just another problem in the never ending list of problems they're already faced with.
No man, no problem.

Caesar's Legion is a cool and daring faction. But it would have arguably been a better faction (for the purpose of siding with them, not for the purpose of discussion) if their members didn't behave as teenage edgelords. At one point I came believe the reason they act so edgy is because they have been trained by Caesar to be edgy to keep their heads cool when facing the horrors of their actions. You wouldn't want people crucifying and decapitating others if they had second thoughts about it. But this only means Caesar knows what he is doing is horrible and completely unnecessary (the massacre at Nipton crosses the line of "civlization" into barbarity: why the hell murder the NCR soldiers and Nipton's population when the actual criminals are the Powder Gangers and the Mayor planning to set up a trap?).

Caesar's methods may be "horrible", but they're also very much necessary. You can not manage to instill a new identity without a firm fist, nor can you keep order. The Legion territory in Arizona has no problems with raiders, meanwhile NCR is plagued with them and many other problems that would largely be solved if they weren't a democracy. The harsher the punishment, the less likely people are to cross the line.

Nipton was a town of cowards, worse yet, a town of individuals, all looking out for themselves. When it comes down to it, Legion vs NCR isn't a battle between evil vs good, but collectivism vs individualism.
And collectivism wins, 100% of the time.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

And collectivism wins, 100% of the time.

 

[Sigourn]

Uh-huh. And tell me, what did the leniency the NCR showed to the criminals result in? Open rebellion, because they were dumb enough to supply them with ample amounts of dynamite as well. Just another problem in the never ending list of problems they're already faced with.

I'd say this is a case of Obsidian writing a retarded faction, but other than that, the point still stands: NCR is human to its enemies, Legion its inhuman even to its own members.
Regarding Nipton, I don't know what the Legion was trying to prove: "that we are strong, and they are weak" my ass. Rather, "that we are monsters", indeed.

 

[Sweeper]

Regarding Nipton, I don't know what the Legion was trying to prove: "that we are strong, and they are weak" my ass. Rather, "that we are monsters", indeed.

Human history is a history of genocide, vae victis and all that. Ultimately moral values should only be applied to members of the group, those outside of it should be given no such considerations. The simple reason being if the roles were reversed, would they be as lenient towards you? Probability says no.
In this case, if the Powder Gangers get ahold of some NCR troopers, would they put them in a work camp, or would they slaughter them?
What is it that you gain by showing leniency?

Legion its inhuman even to its own members.

And that's why they would win.

 

[Sigourn]

What is it that you gain by showing leniency?

Retain humanity, which the Legion has lost. And which, ultimately is the question asked here: you are not telling me why the Legion is not evil, you are just telling me why the Legion being evil works for them.

Legion its inhuman even to its own members.

And that's why they would win.

No, the Legion would win because of plot armor and Obsidian writing the NCR as the dumbest motherfuckers to have ever lived.

 

[Sweeper]

Retain humanity, which the Legion has lost.

What good is your humanity if your group gets destroyed by the other group that isn't burdened with such concerns?

No, the Legion would win because of plot armor and Obsidian writing the NCR as the dumbest motherfuckers to have ever lived.

But it's not plot armor, the reasons for NCRs stupidity and the Legion's strength are fairly well described and established.
The legion doesn't have to worry about funds, or at least nowhere near as much as the NCR. They simply take what they need or produce it with slave labor. The NCR has to pay for everything, and their only source of income, I assume, is taxes.
There is an enormous difference between a legionary and an NCR trooper. The legionary is resolute, trained for combat since birth or the time he joined the Legion. Despite their loss at the first battle of Hoover Dam morale is high. They are unquestioning, united by purpose and identity.
The NCR conscript trooper has low morale, bad discipline, poor training. All of this is compounded by logistical problems and sabotage, by Hanlon or the frumentarii which have heavily infiltrated the NCR in Nevada.
The Legion has Lanius, a man who is a living myth. NCR has Oliver, a career soldier affectionately nicknamed general Wait and See by his own troops.
But the NCR can't wait, they're sinking caps into Nevada while all the Legion has to do is wait and amass their troops.

It's not so much that the writers wrote it badly, it's that they wrote it perfectly. A democratic regime stands no chance against an authoritarian, collectivist one in times of war (assuming the numbers and tech are comparable).

And which, ultimately is the question asked here: you are not telling me why the Legion is not evil, you are just telling me why the Legion being evil works for them.

Fair enough. I consider being lenient a weakness that leads to more suffering down the line. The legion will reestablish order, more harshly and cruelly, but much more easily than the NCR. And in establishing that order they'll save more lives in the long run. The NCR will likely fall apart even if they win against the Legion, and even if they don't their attempts at establishing order are too inefficient and soft.
It took the NCR over a hundred years to establish what they have, it took Caesar only 37 to take over Arizona.

 

[Commissar Draco]

Legion would win cause their opponents are bunch of profligates each one thinking about their own good:



Read the Nipton Mayor Journals the man was from NCR but it did not stop him to sell NCR troops to powder gangers and then both of them to Legion all to earn some shekels, NCR troopers btw were the only ones who got clean and quick death.

 

[Morality Games]

Either you bois have terribly standard for moral, or you are trolling. With people on Net I can never tell~

"Even if I massacre entire cities, kill innocent bystanders, trade people like goods and cattle stocks, crucify them on the cross like so much ragdoll, as long as I wear a snazzy uniform, I am still a good man, my people still a good people."

:haha:

Also shit English grammar Past Modals is a weasel. I dont do business with weasels.

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

It's a very draconian philosophy that is based on the concept that nobody is really innocent because everyone engage in continual, small acts of evil (out of prejudice, self interest, and incuriousity). In Caesar's view, the reason why the bombs happened at all was because civilization (as in, everyone in it) become jingoistic, egotistical, and extremely conceited. Destroying the world was the collective failure of an entire society and its values due to being capitalistic and self indulgent, so, insane levels of harshness and cruelty are necessary to break everyone's ego and rebuild them as disciplined and organized society that would never drop the bombs (starting with the fact they wouldn't rely on technology to live in the first place).

They have a concept of honor and wisdom (an insight into history) they believe is necessary to stop humans from destroying the world again, and so they enforce it brutally.

However, they also enforce it against and among themselves. The Legion could monopolize technology to live in luxury, but they live according to an ancient world standard of comfort in a manner comparable to the Spartans because they think that's what needed to "keep it real."

That's not to say that the Legion is ultimately correct (they probably aren't), but they have a point. If ordinary NCR citizens can't keep their politicians accountable (because not enough of them put the effort into organizing or see it as their responsibility to do so), then how can they stop them from dropping nuclear bombs at some point in 300 years? The culture of glib irresponsibility that Caesar hates has already taken root.

 

[Luckmann]

Humans never stopped being tribal animals, and even if we pretend it's not true, we don't care about other tribes as much as our own

Hmm. Then how would you explain various multi-kulti, pro-minorities, pro-diversity and other scumbag movements?

Same tribalism, as exploited by one tribe in particular.

 

[Tigranes]

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

Except in any historical example of this, it very quickly turns out that "we whip you hard just like we whip ourselves hard" never lasts very long. At some point, an aging Caesar lives in opulence and his favourites live by different rules. Or Caesar maintains it, but once he's gone it quickly falls apart. Or the general pattern is maintained while the Legion keeps up its colonial conquests, but if it stalls for any reason (military challenges, run out of nearby people to enslave, etc), then again things fall apart. Not that any social system is ever static - but these kinds we often see disintegrate faster.

 

[thesecret1]

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

The thing is, everyone defines it subjectively. There have been attempts since the dawn of Man to reach some sort of a consensus about what is good and evil, and people always reached different conclusions in different cultures and different times. The whole discussion of "is X evil?" is utterly pointless unless you are in some sort of a community that has those concepts clearly defined for itself (for example, discussing it with a priest – he will judge it based on his knowledge of religious texts, which may be relevant to you if you also consider them to be the defining tool for good and evil).

This conflict is even depicted in the Bible – the moment Adam and Eve get to decide for themselves what Good and Evil are is the moment God chases them out of his garden before the two retards decide to try cancelling him for not using natural fertilizers for his carrot patch or something.

 

[Vormulak]

Only trannies and soi creatures think the Legion are evil.

 

[Spectacle]

And collectivism wins, 100% of the time.

Individualism wins 100% of the time, in a single-player solo-character game with unlimited save/reload.
Even if the Legion wins it's not because of their own strengths, but because the Courier wants them to win.

 

[Sigourn]

What good is your humanity if your group gets destroyed by the other group that isn't burdened with such concerns?

That's besides the point of this thread.
Truth is, the game lets you join the NCR/House/Independent and wipe the floor with the Legion's dogs. So at the end of the day their beliefs mean nothing and joining an evil faction is not necessary when you can take control of Hoover Dam without their help.

But it's not plot armor, the reasons for NCRs stupidity and the Legion's strength are fairly well described and established.

Nah man. Legion soldiers tanking bullets in football gear is plot armor. We've seen how The Last Samurai ends.

I can't remember what was I alluding to when I wrote "NCR's stupidity", but it was probably something about the NCR being unable to get anything done unless you join them. Meanwhile, the Legion always wins even if the player does nothing (i.e. if you don't find the Legion spy, the monorail explodes; if you don't save him, Kimball dies; if you don't kill them, the Fiends keep fucking up every NCR soldier; etc.).

 

[Silverfish]

Nah man. Legion soldiers tanking bullets in football gear is plot armor.

Benny was wearing a suit and it took me about half a dozen shots to kill him.

 

[Morality Games]

Depends on how you define evil. Kant for example saw 'evil' as treating other people with a degree of kindness that differs from how you wish to be treated. By that definition of evil, the Legion as a whole isn't really evil because the same standard they use to judge everyone is exactly how they want to be treated.

Except in any historical example of this, it very quickly turns out that "we whip you hard just like we whip ourselves hard" never lasts very long. At some point, an aging Caesar lives in opulence and his favourites live by different rules. Or Caesar maintains it, but once he's gone it quickly falls apart. Or the general pattern is maintained while the Legion keeps up its colonial conquests, but if it stalls for any reason (military challenges, run out of nearby people to enslave, etc), then again things fall apart. Not that any social system is ever static - but these kinds we often see disintegrate faster.

That's less a suggestion that the Legion are evil and more an observation that wisdom and honor the Legion believes in and practices aren't sustainable in the long term.

That said, there is a small possibility the system can survive (it did with the Spartans for a very, very long time).

 

[Semiurge]

Fascists like the Legion are typically lawful, and their being lawful means they will be opposed by chaotic ultra-liberals. Only the true neutral based will recognize both of them for what they are, as evil.

 

[jungl]

Legion is south park tier joke. When you meet Caesar you see that he is a self absorbed narcist who doesn't give a shit about the nearest person to his immediate left or right