Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Mr. House has a vision for the future, which he expounds to a Courier following his path:

New Vegas is more than a city - it's the remedy to mankind's derailment.

The city's economy is a blast furnace in which can be forged the steel of a new rail line, running straight to a new horizon.

What is the NCR? A society of people desperate to experience comfort, ease, luxury... A society of customers.

With all that money pouring in? Give me 20 years, and I'll reignite the high technology development sectors. 50 years, and I'll have people in orbit.

100 years, and my colony ships will be heading for the stars, to search for planets unpolluted by the wrath and folly of a bygone generation.

Although Mr. House is a self-admitted autocrat, he intends to use his power to re-establish a technologically-advanced economy and re-start scientific progress, with the aim of allowing humanity an escape from the now resource-starved Earth. By comparison, Caesar merely dreams of transforming the Legion into a settled empire following the conquest of the Mojave and California, but such a transformation is contingent on his being alive to carry out his plans, and Caesar is in an old man suffering from a brain tumor that will cause imminent death if not treated by the Courier. Even then, Caesar likely has only a few more years to live, and it is unclear whether a transformed imperial Legion would be any improvement over the NCR; it certainly wouldn't offer long-term salvation to humanity as Mr. House proposes.

 

[jac8awol]

Legion is evil in the same way that Kyros from Tyranny is evil. They represent an authoritarian system that is automatically evil, in the eyes of soy developers and writers. At least legion had some nuance and there were redeeming features to be found. It seems ultimately ironic that the people behind these games are bernie bros that want some sort of neo-liberal SJW government, but then always hate on the authoritarian factions in games.

 

[Harthwain]

They could be based on Mather Theresa for all that matters. If a faction is introduced in a scene where they slaughter civilians in a horrifying way it's safe to assume that they are the villains. Especially if they are the only major faction in the game that does it.

Well...:

In 146 BC, Rome declared war on the Achaean League and, after victories over league forces in the summer of that year, the Romans under Lucius Mummius besieged and captured Corinth. When he entered the city, Mummius killed all the men and sold the women and children into slavery before burning the city, for which he was given the cognomen Achaicus as the conqueror of the Achaean League.

Certain scholars, including Professor of History Ben Kiernan, allege that the total destruction of Carthage by the Romans may have been history's first genocide.

And yet, despite of this, the Romans are very well regarded by a vast majority of people.

It might also surprise it but when I watched BG1 intro and saw Sarevok wearing a monstrous black armor strangling a defenseless dude begging for mercy I assumed that he's going to be a villain in this particular story and not that if I was an Ancient Roman I might've found his behavior commendable.

Spoiler

So the idea that a land deed has any legitimacy is dumb becaue laws haven't existed since forever, they are man made and thus hold no value at all.

Land deed has value if it's universally recognized and [land] can't be taken by force by someone who's stronger. It's the same with the money.

 

[laclongquan]

Legion is evil the way any regime practice slavery, crucifixion, and city-wide massacre is evil

Slavery? All FNV slavers and slavemaster is Legion-affiliate.

Crucifixion? Nipton, the Legion Fort, Cottonwood Cove, and the Legion Base.

City-wide massacre? Nipton.

Say what else about evil NCR, at least they dont sell people into slavery, or crucifixion, or massacre a whole damn town.

And before you whine "But mah anshun Romaaaan~", based on these criteria, Ancient Roman is evil as fuck. Guilty on all three charges.

 

[Black Angel]

and it is unclear whether a transformed imperial Legion would be any improvement over the NCR;

They would, by virtue of the NCR having horribly problematic upper echelons: incompetent hacks like Kimball and General 'Wait-and-See' Oliver, together with a warmonger like Cassandra Moore who actively antagonize the good people of the NCR who preferred diplomatic approaches like Crocker. When NCR is allowed to win the Hoover Dam, a good man like Hanlon retired, leaving the bad bunch not only remained in power but also praised to high heavens. Only when you showed the NCR how it's done by pursuing either House or Independent ending, does a guy like Hanlon finally stand up against his corrupt and incompetent superiors, and even gained a seat in NCR Ruling Council by becoming Redding senator.

Meanwhile, at least the Legion's officials are not only competent but highly loyal to Caesar, so even if only for a few years, Caesar with his brain tumor cured might be able to groom a proper successor. If you got a Good Karma female Courier, might be even better to steer the Pax Romana into a more acceptable nation.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Harthwain
The keypoint is that Romans are a historical nation, and not a fictional group of people in a fictional setting who appear in a specific content. If there was a game where you play as a wonderer in the ancient world and your first introduction to Romans would be them razing Cartagne most people would assume that in that games Romans are the evil faction and player is supposed to oppose them. Because if there were supposed to be the heroes or morally gray wildcards they'd be introduced doing something else.
The question is "why would you consider Legion to be evil" the answer is "because they are in a video game acting like every villain in video game (especially Fallout universe)".

Latelistener

You make it sound so simple, like Legion just came and destroyed the good town, when it was a shithole on the level of Den from Fallout 2.
Not to say that it was the mayor who sold both sides which visited the town to Legion. thus sealing its fate. Vulpes only had a small squad. He wouldn't be able to do anything if the town was aware of the attack.

If you kill the entire population of Den in Fallout 2 you will get negative Karma, which is a game's way of telling you that you are a badguy. If "bad Karma" was too subtle the worst title you get form having a low Karma is "Demon Spawn" and in most video games demons are considered to be personifications of evil.
You could argue that that's just a reputation and not the game judging you but in Fallout 2 in the description of neutral Karma you see at the end of the game you are told that if you have low Karma "people hate you for your evil actions".
People are assuming they are evil because in their introductory scenes they are doing one of the most evil actions a player can do in a Fallout game. Not as defined by players, but as defined by previous Fallout titles. The good ones, not F3 where you get evil mercenaries trying to hunt you down if you commit too many noble deeds.

 

[Latelistener]

You make it sound so simple, like Legion just came and destroyed the good town, when it was a shithole on the level of Den from Fallout 2.
Not to say that it was the mayor who sold both sides which visited the town to Legion. thus sealing its fate. Vulpes only had a small squad. He wouldn't be able to do anything if the town was aware of the attack.

If you kill the entire population of Den in Fallout 2 you will get negative Karma, which is a game's way of telling you that you are a badguy. If "bad Karma" was too subtle the worst title you get form having a low Karma is "Demon Spawn" and in most video games demons are considered to be personifications of evil.
You could argue that that's just a reputation and not the game judging you but in Fallout 2 in the description of neutral Karma you see at the end of the game you are told that if you have low Karma "people hate you for your evil actions".
People are assuming they are evil because in their introductory scenes they are doing one of the most evil actions a player can do in a Fallout game. Not as defined by players, but as defined by previous Fallout titles. The good ones, not F3 where you get evil mercenaries trying to hunt you down if you commit too many noble deeds.

To be honest, I don't think that this is a valid way to prove anything. For starters, because Fallout 2 is a circus in terms of consistency. I only named Den to give a basic idea of what kind of settlement Nipton was.

You don't actually know what kind of karma you would've got if you'd killed everyone in Nipton. We know that it consisted of unsavory folks and Powder Gangers, killing which would give you positive karma. The only potentially good folks there were a portion of the population and NCR soldiers.

The mayor himself was also evil and what he did makes me think that the town would've simply destroyed itself one way or another.

 

[Cryomancer]

What you're looking for is benevolent dictator.

He is very different than a dictator... Even a benevolent dictator would kill you for the chip.

He is more like a business owner, his relationship with the Courier is more akin to Boss/Employee than to a Hitler and Adolf Eichmann. Nobody is forced to work with him. He made contract with the casino owners and never putted a securitron inside their casinos despite having power to do so because he respects the private propriety of his employees.

A dictator, even a benevolent one will break the contract to see if they are not trying to dethrone then. That is the BEST video that i saw putting pro Mr House and against Mr House arguments

 

[Trashos]

House and BoS are incompatible, because House has Securitrons... and the BoS cannot have that, can they now? Even if hypothetically the Courier made a deal with the BoS leadership to allow him the Securitrons, you can almost smell it that a lot of people in the Brotherhood would be pissed.

House player here. He is great. He shoots for the moon, and he is so awesome (even though not perfect), that he may even achieve it.

I do not like the Independent scenario, the way it is presented in the game. My concept of an independent scenario would be helping NCR barely win, in a way that they would come out of it very weakened. But the game pushes you to align everyone with the NCR (the BoS, the Khans) instead. Sure, you can avoid it, but suffice it to say that it is not what I envisioned as an independent storyline. Only played Independent once, then returned to helping House.

Other than that, the NCR are (cock)suckers, a society of consumers who serve as House's customers. And yes, they are trying to rebuild the same thing that led to total destruction, as already stated ITT. I hope the developers realize this at some point, it has been too long already.

The Legion are not customers, so I am afraid that they have to go back. Even if I kinda like parts of them.

 

[Trashos]

Dead Money.

I hated dead money. It takes out all freedom that NV offers. Worst DLC IMO. And i an not talking about new vegas dlc. All game dlc. One of the most popular new vegas mod allow you to skip dead money ( https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/42155 )

Dead Money blew my my mind, it reached levels of greatness that I did not think were possible. And you, you do not deserve great things.

 

[Alphons]

massacre a whole damn town.

Yes, they did- Bitter Springs.

Personally I'm for the Independent.
Main theme of NV is "Let go and begin again".
You don't get to do it with Roman cosplayers, carbon copy of pre-war government or the pre-war businessman.

But is it a perfect ending- no.
Each side has it's merits and downsides.

 

[laclongquan]

massacre a whole damn town.

Yes, they did- Bitter Springs.
.

Dawg, you are missing the personal vendetta the NCR had with the Khans AND VICE VERSA.

It's like Rome and Carthegia. When they can Carthegians pillage, rape, kill THEN burn across the whole damn Italian peninsula. Carthegia must be burnt is not just a revenge motto, it's a whole fucking defensive strategy by Romans to deal with the threat.

When they can the Khans rob, rape, kill then burn down from the days of Vault 15, to the day of Shady Sands, to this day of FNV. They almost do no agriculture, based entirely on pillage and robbery across the NCR. When they can they produce drugs to sell, which is the height of their industry.

You speak of Bitter Spring as if it's an innocent town, not as a collection of biggest raider band in the entire republic. Sure, the massacre is horrific to soldiers who are (and are not) stone cold killers. But even followers of raiders band share something called Collective Responsibility.

Let's assume an impossibility: a modern police force capture the whole fucking camp and try them by modern laws. You know what the lightest sentence would be? Aid and albeiting crimes.

 

[fantadomat]

Legion is evil in the same way that Kyros from Tyranny is evil. They represent an authoritarian system that is automatically evil, in the eyes of soy developers and writers. At least legion had some nuance and there were redeeming features to be found. It seems ultimately ironic that the people behind these games are bernie bros that want some sort of neo-liberal SJW government, but then always hate on the authoritarian factions in games.

For me it was evil because that authoritarian figure wasn't me!

Ahhh and that is why dragon age inquisition was such a disappointment for me. You were trust in to place of power (which is rare for an RPG) ,but the writers were to retarded to come up with some good decisions you could take. Instead of choosing a retarded emperor,just declere them all hedonistic heretics and just smith them with the hammer of God,thus killing them and becoming the leader. Same with the chantry and all that shit. The last DLC was also very painful lol. A bunch of cunts judging me instead of me riding with the cavalry and using their skin as toilet paper lol.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

instead of choosing a retarded emperor,just declere them all hedonistic heretics and just smith them with the hammer of God,thus killing them and becoming the leader. Same with the chantry and all that shit.

They originally planned to have the option of the PC becoming the new Divine, but then they cucked out.

A shame really, would've liked to have my Human male mage become Divine and to pave the way for the restoration of the unity of the Chantry between Tevinter and Orlais.

 

[fantadomat]

instead of choosing a retarded emperor,just declere them all hedonistic heretics and just smith them with the hammer of God,thus killing them and becoming the leader. Same with the chantry and all that shit.

They originally planned to have the option of the PC becoming the new Divine, but then they cucked out.

A shame really, would've liked to have my Human male mage become Divine and to pave the way for the restoration of the unity of the Chantry between Tevinter and Orlais.

Yeah,that would have been really good option. The game could have been decent,but they pretty much didn't let you do anything of value. Also the main quest was extremely small. You could do it in a few hours if you didn't have all the side shit tied to it.

 

[jackofshadows]

Ahhh and that is why dragon age inquisition was such a disappointment for me. You were trust in to place of power (which is rare for an RPG) ,but the writers were to retarded to come up with some good decisions you could take. Instead of choosing a retarded emperor,just declere them all hedonistic heretics and just smith them with the hammer of God,thus killing them and becoming the leader. Same with the chantry and all that shit. The last DLC was also very painful lol. A bunch of cunts judging me instead of me riding with the cavalry and using their skin as toilet paper lol.

Pretty much same here. It could be less awkward in retrospect if proclamation of the HEAD OF THE FUCKING INQUISITION were made with much less fuss, far-fetched pomp and all that, rather like a humble necessary measure which is kinda were plot wise.

All we got basically for fun out of that premise - to boss around advisers and to judge fate of some random shmuck from time to time (ok, to be fair with a few interesting exceptions).

And while in the last DLC companions got a lot of attention, plot wise just revealed who was the actual MC all along. And it would be fine, again if not all that glorious premise at the game's start.

They originally planned to have the option of the PC becoming the new Divine, but then they cucked out.

That's... disgraceful

 

[Alphons]

massacre a whole damn town.

Yes, they did- Bitter Springs.
.

Dawg, you are missing the personal vendetta the NCR had with the Khans AND VICE VERSA.

It's like Rome and Carthegia. When they can Carthegians pillage, rape, kill THEN burn across the whole damn Italian peninsula. Carthegia must be burnt is not just a revenge motto, it's a whole fucking defensive strategy by Romans to deal with the threat.

When they can the Khans rob, rape, kill then burn down from the days of Vault 15, to the day of Shady Sands, to this day of FNV. They almost do no agriculture, based entirely on pillage and robbery across the NCR. When they can they produce drugs to sell, which is the height of their industry.

You speak of Bitter Spring as if it's an innocent town, not as a collection of biggest raider band in the entire republic. Sure, the massacre is horrific to soldiers who are (and are not) stone cold killers. But even followers of raiders band share something called Collective Responsibility.

Let's assume an impossibility: a modern police force capture the whole fucking camp and try them by modern laws. You know what the lightest sentence would be? Aid and albeiting crimes.

So what's the difference between Bitter Springs and Nipton that makes one massacre perfectly justifiable while the other not?

People of Nipton clearly associated themselves with NCR and Powder Gangers- both enemies of the Legion.
Not only that, they were criminals themselves by harbouring escaped convicts.

 

[Harthwain]

The keypoint is that Romans are a historical nation, and not a fictional group of people in a fictional setting who appear in a specific content.

I don't see the point you're trying to make here with the "this is a work of fiction" stipulation, especially considering how many parallels there are between the two. Not just inspirations, but straight up parallels.

If there was a game where you play as a wonderer in the ancient world and your first introduction to Romans would be them razing Cartagne most people would assume that in that games Romans are the evil faction and player is supposed to oppose them. Because if there were supposed to be the heroes or morally gray wildcards they'd be introduced doing something else.
The question is "why would you consider Legion to be evil" the answer is "because they are in a video game acting like every villain in video game (especially Fallout universe)".

If the first encounter with Caesar's Legion was the player seeing them giving people food and helping old ladies cross the street (or generally doing something "good"), while they'd be still maintaining all the other lore-related stuff (say, slavery), then they wouldn't be considered evil? That sounds... incredibly superficial and highly prone to deviation as the way of measuring one's overall evilness.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I don't see the point you're trying to make here with the "this is a work of fiction" stipulation, especially considering how many parallels there are between the two. Not just inspirations, but straight up parallels.

If you don't know see a point of treating a work of fiction like a work of fiction that's not really something I can do anything about.

ple food and helping old ladies cross the street (or generally doing something "good"), while they'd be still maintaining all the other lore-related stuff (say, slavery), then they wouldn't be considered evil? That sounds... incredibly superficial and highly prone to deviation as the way of measuring one's overall evilness.

Yes, if Legion had different introduction and some content to provide some balance to obviously evil things they do, they'd be perceived differently. So to return to my original answers "Legion is perceived evil because they are acting like villains" the question is also simple "If Legion didn't act like villains people probably wouldn't consider them to be evil".
Introducing other factions in a less sympathetic ways would also help. If the House was introduced using securotrons to gun down the Kings, and the first contact with NCR would be them torturing captured brotherhood soldiers to win it's possible that they wouldn't be seen as an evil faction. Similarly to how Empire of Man can represent good in WH 40K despite genociding entire planets simply because everyone else is even worse.

Latelistener
The problem is that once we assume that it's OK to kill all the town citizens because major is a crook and an asshole since it makes them all evil, then we can justify killing entirety of all the other factions in the game and arguing if the Legion is evil or not is pointless since at this point all factions are evil.
Also notice how they don't just murder everyone there but make sure to do it in the particularly sadistic way. Which is a sure sign someone is a not only in the series or RPGs, but fiction in general.
The problem with Legion that until like 10 hours into the game Legion is only known for 4 things:
-Rizing towns - up to that point done exclusively by Evil factions in the universe: Master, Enclave, Raiders (though IIRC they only do that in one ending in F1)
-Slavery - slavers, Khans, Master, Enclave
-Murdering NCR soldiers - up to New Vegas NCR was the most civilize and player friendly faction in existence
-Being hated by friendly, recruitable NPCs - especially Boone
Yes people will assume that a faction is evil if their major characteristics are shared by game's villainous faction up to that point in the series. Most people don't ever learn about trade being safer in Legion territory long after they had a chance to made their minds about them.
I mean whatever their way of running things in the wasteland would be better than NCR could be discussed but there's plenty of reason why they are considered evil besides just getting less content.

 

[Metronome]

John Gonzalez reasoned that it was out of character for House to keep them around, so Sawyer cut it even though it had already been made and put in the game.

From what I heard House was so broken they did it so playtesters would stop uniformly picking him.

 

[thesecret1]

I am surprised to see so much asshurt over slavery. The greatest civilizations in history relied heavily on slavery, be they Rome, Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians or whoever else have you. The sentiment that slavery is wrong and immoral only developed with Christianity (putting a de facto pause to the practice until America was discovered). Would you describe all of the ancient civilizations as cartoonishly evil, plain villains, or not being fleshed enough factions?

The real evil of slavery is that it produces cheap no-skill labour that can put poorer citizens out of a job, but that's hardly a concern in a post post-apo setting.

 

[Nano]

I am surprised to see so much asshurt over slavery. The greatest civilizations in history relied heavily on slavery, be they Rome, Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians or whoever else have you. The sentiment that slavery is wrong and immoral only developed with Christianity (putting a de facto pause to the practice until America was discovered). Would you describe all of the ancient civilizations as cartoonishly evil, plain villains, or not being fleshed enough factions?

The real evil of slavery is that it produces cheap no-skill labour that can put poorer citizens out of a job, but that's hardly a concern in a post post-apo setting.

Do you take requests? I want you to go to the street and tape a video of yourself repeating everything from this post to a crowd of people. I want to see you get mauled.

 

[thesecret1]

Do you take requests? I want you to go to the street and tape a video of yourself repeating everything from this post to a crowd of people. I want to see you get mauled.

Asshurt to the point of having violent fantasies and even posting them on the internet? Rome, Greeks, etc. have all used slavery extensively and that's a fact. Do you consider them cartoonishly evil as a result?

 

[Nano]

Asshurt to the point of having violent fantasies and even posting them on the internet?

It's not just violent fantasies. I think slavery supporters should be killed.

Have a nice day.

 

[fantadomat]

Asshurt to the point of having violent fantasies and even posting them on the internet?

It's not just violent fantasies. I think slavery supporters should be killed.

Have a nice day.

Go back in the mine,Un'bogue! Your free hour had expired!