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Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil

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RNGsus

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House can fight without fighting, and he will fight when necessary. He's exactly the sort of mastermind you want planning the future of a stronk and free people. That future begins in an independent, Ur Vegas. Get over it, fags.

Here's how non-House/maverick players think:

Everyone is kinda bad when you're an autistic, post-modern weirdo walk-the-lonely-road punk with a chip on his shoulder, because real communism's never been tried, like my high school teacher always said, so you bigots better support the NCR!
 
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Sweeper

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If we're going to be honest with ourselves here, the only reason New Vegas is considered great is cause Obsidian had to compete with fucking Bethesda at writing a story and making an RPG.
The character building is passable, the combat is kinda shit, and the writing is meh, it's good vidya writing but the themes among the different factions are boring and unoriginal.
Corrupt oligarchies posing as republics, yeah that's never been done before. Fucking brutal dictatorships, they're pretty evil right? Right? House is probably the most interesting of the bunch, too bad supporting him feels like corporate bootlicking.
The only actually good parts of the game are Honest Hearts and Dead Money.
Fuck Caesar, fuck the NCR, fuck House, and fuck New Vegas.
I wish I could have followed Joshua Graham to New Canaan, spreading the word of God to every infidel, one .45 at a time.
 

Harthwain

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Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil.

The only reason they may be seen that way is probably because the faction didn't get enough content. You hear the horror stories from NCR soldiers practically the whole game and by the time most players got to the Legion territory they already have an established opinion.

But if you pay attention the game also shows the good sides of Legion and corruption of the NCR leadership. Most gamers just had to have a villain in the story, when there isn't any.

I think the fact that when you first encounter them they're razing the entire town might have something to do with it. There might be an argument regarding "who's vision for the wasteland was right in the end", but in the narrative they are clearly set to be the baddies.
It should be pretty obvious that Caesar's Legion is based on Romans. You can easily draw parallels between their actions and the actions of the ancient Romans (slavery, razing cities as an example, etc.). With that in mind, would you consider Romans evil? Or just following a very different morality than the one we're using nowadays?
 

Sigourn

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The reason the police protect your house is because you have a deed that says you own it, and we've created a social structure where that matters.

It's the same fucking thing, you don't actually believe that back in caveman days we had land deeds, do you? Someone took it by force, and as time went on laws appeared, but that doesn't mean this land wasn't taken by force before.

Case in point, Argentina used to belong to the indians, and the government in place killed everyone to take over their lands, so much for laws and social structures. It's no different with House: the world went to hell, the laws in place matter no more, and it is his city now.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
If we're going to be honest with ourselves here, the only reason New Vegas is considered great is cause Obsidian had to compete with fucking Bethesda at writing a story and making an RPG.
The game is considered great because of the world-building and reactivity. You say the writing is meh, meh in comparison to what, exactly? If you are comparing this to literature you are stupid because they are different mediums. If you are comparing this to other cRPGs it is infinitely better than most of them.
 

Sigourn

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It should be pretty obvious that Caesar's Legion is based on Romans. You can easily draw parallels between their actions and the actions of the ancient Romans (slavery, razing cities as an example, etc.). With that in mind, would you consider Romans evil? Or just following a very different morality than the one we're using nowadays?

No doubt they were evil, but most importantly, retarded because they probably thought the stuff they were doing was justified by their Gods.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
House can fight without fighting, and he will fight when necessary. He's exactly the sort of mastermind you want planning the future of a stronk and free people. That future begins in an independent, Ur Vegas. Get over it, fags.
It is not independent then, is it? The only genuine independent places in New Vegas are small and vulnerable places like Goodsprings. Only in these places you are genuinely free. The rest is choosing between the lesser of evils.
 
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RNGsus

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"H-he's a megalomaniac! Take him away, he isn't a retarded dirt farmer like us! Down with greatness, up mediocrity!" - say this to yourself like a weasley, hunchbacked prole would, and you have non-House players
 

Cryomancer

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Glory to Ukraine
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Dead Money.

I hated dead money. It takes out all freedom that NV offers. Worst DLC IMO. And i an not talking about new vegas dlc. All game dlc. One of the most popular new vegas mod allow you to skip dead money ( https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/42155 )


Case in point, Argentina used to belong to the indians, and the government in place killed everyone to take over their lands, so much for laws and social structures. It's no different with House: the world went to hell, the laws in place matter no more, and it is his city now.

The same can be said about Falklands? Don't get mad about me... I an really curious. I love Argentina, visited Barilcohe on 2018, and prefer to remain neutral. This is just a question to see your answer.
 

Deleted Member 22431

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I guess you're one of those people who say you can't compare a to b cause they're different things. I can, and I will.

These discussions tend to put cRPG writing in a bad light because they are unconsciously compared to classic novels and such. That does not make a lick of sense because (1) you are always picking the best representatives of the genre, but 99% of the world literature is garbage; (2) literature is a different genre and cRPG writing needs to be analyzed by its own standards.

cRPGs involve a series of tropes of gameplay that would represent bad writing in literature. For instance, any cRPG worth of its salt will force you to walk around talking to random people and making stupid questions such as: “How is life?”, “Did you hear anything strange?”, etc. You are comparing apples and oranges. I’m sure that Tolstoy, for example, would be a shit cRPG writer, because being a good novelist and a good game writer are different activities, and each requires a different set of skills. Thus, they have their own standards of evaluation and we can't judge one activity based on the other.

It is not clear what cRPG writing is even when we avoid the temptation to make comparisons with different genres. Should we include item descriptions and quests as elements of cRPG writing? Or cRPG writing should include only the story and the main quest? I never read any piece on the subject that made an effort to clarify this problem, much less acknowledge it.

It is hard to identify what cRPG writing is because the writing text is tied to the gameplay, and we do not know when one starts and the other ends. This also means that the very notion of cRPG writer as a profession is misguided and betrays a poor understanding of the genre. You cannot have a good cRPG writer that does not think as a developer and ignores the importance of gameplay.

The fact that is a common practice among cRPG studios to hire different writers to make a single game should give you a reason to stop and think. Different writers have different sensibilities, styles and abilities and this will impact negatively on the game. cRPGs should have only one writer. Besides, it’s harder to be a good game writer due to the cooperative nature of your work. A novelist relies only on his own experiences, but a game writer has time constraints, development budget, engine limitations, level designers, artists, etc. In a sense, a game writer can be a genius in his expertise but deliver mediocre work because his team fucked up.

You also make the naive mistake of thinking that cRPG writing is the written part of the story and dialogue boxes. Then you remove this part from the game and compare it in your head with novels. But the writing part of a cRPG also involves gameplay conventions that require a proper understanding of game design and has nothing to do with literature. For instance, whether the player has a huge inventory on his ass or not, or whether the player can kill a whole city or not, is cRPG writing. People will put this stuff in the design territory, but it is also writing because you are structuring the laws of your game world.
 
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
Not sure why would you consider Caesar's Legion to be evil.

The only reason they may be seen that way is probably because the faction didn't get enough content. You hear the horror stories from NCR soldiers practically the whole game and by the time most players got to the Legion territory they already have an established opinion.

But if you pay attention the game also shows the good sides of Legion and corruption of the NCR leadership. Most gamers just had to have a villain in the story, when there isn't any.

I think the fact that when you first encounter them they're razing the entire town might have something to do with it. There might be an argument regarding "who's vision for the wasteland was right in the end", but in the narrative they are clearly set to be the baddies.
It should be pretty obvious that Caesar's Legion is based on Romans. You can easily draw parallels between their actions and the actions of the ancient Romans (slavery, razing cities as an example, etc.). With that in mind, would you consider Romans evil? Or just following a very different morality than the one we're using nowadays?

They could be based on Mather Theresa for all that matters. If a faction is introduced in a scene where they slaughter civilians in a horrifying way it's safe to assume that they are the villains. Especially if they are the only major faction in the game that does it.
It might also surprise it but when I watched BG1 intro and saw Sarevok wearing a monstrous black armor strangling a defenseless dude begging for mercy I assumed that he's going to be a villain in this particular story and not that if I was an Ancient Roman I might've found his behavior commendable.
 

502

Learned
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Ankara
I guess you're one of those people who say you can't compare a to b cause they're different things.
I can, and I will.

Compare away, but by comparing vidya writing to that of one-sided mediums, you're unwillingly enabling the "cinematic experience" cancer that skullfucks reactivity and player agency.

I hated dead money. It takes out all freedom that NV offers. Worst DLC IMO. And i an not talking about new vegas dlc. All game dlc. One of the most popular new vegas mod allow you to skip dead money ( https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/42155 )

I'm preaching to the choir here, but it was supposed to be tough and despairing. Execution could use work, sure, but I like it for what it is. They could ease up on the letting go narrative a bit, and perhaps reaching to the exit encumbered should have been a non-standard game over with a forced reload. There's a reason Sawyer's mod lowers the value of the gold bars.

Besides, some of the most popular gameplay mods on Nexus are outright cheats. That doesn't prove anything. Do you know what else is popular? Fallout 4.

What about the droid attack on the Wookiees?

Fear leads to anger
Anger leads to hate
Around the survivors
A perimeter create
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
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Messages
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Case in point, Argentina used to belong to the indians, and the government in place killed everyone to take over their lands, so much for laws and social structures. It's no different with House: the world went to hell, the laws in place matter no more, and it is his city now.

The same can be said about Falklands? Don't get mad about me... I an really curious. I love Argentina, visited Barilcohe on 2018, and prefer to remain neutral. This is just a question to see your answer.

I honestly don't care about the Falklands, the British will tell their story and Argentines will tell theirs. But the fact is that a lot of indians got killed in Argentina over the Conquest of the Desert. And now people "legitimately" live in those territories (other Argentines like myself, except I'm from Buenos Aires and I say kill them all). So the idea that a land deed has any legitimacy is dumb becaue laws haven't existed since forever, they are man made and thus hold no value at all.
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
Compare away, but by comparing vidya writing to that of one-sided mediums, you're unwillingly enabling the "cinematic experience" cancer that skullfucks reactivity and player agency.

Pretty much. They are envious of high literature so they will flood the gameplay with pretentious walls of prose in order to compensate for their inferiority complex. The player doesn’t have much wiggle room to choose anything whatsoever, because he has to fit in whatever fantastic story the failed artist decided previously. Case in point, Disco Elysium. It’s pretentious, linear, but it is praised to heavens by starved hobos game journos because it comes across as sophisticated and bold.
 
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Cryomancer

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Frostfell
Name ONE dictator who never forced anyone to live under his rule, never tried to tax or disarm his people and never tried to expand his domain...
 

Deleted Member 22431

Guest
"H-he's a megalomaniac! Take him away, he isn't a retarded dirt farmer like us! Down with greatness, up mediocrity!" - say this to yourself like a weasley, hunchbacked prole would, and you have non-House players
Mr.House will impose his vision by force, just like the rest of the big shots in the New Vegas world. You can't have his power and pretend he is a cool pacificist. He isn't. This also holds for most of the smaller factions. They all want power. It's your personal preferences and rationalizations that make your squirm and call House haters bad names. It's completely irrational, admit it.
 

Latelistener

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Messages
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I think the fact that when you first encounter them they're razing the entire town might have something to do with it. There might be an argument regarding "who's vision for the wasteland was right in the end", but in the narrative they are clearly set to be the baddies.
You make it sound so simple, like Legion just came and destroyed the good town, when it was a shithole on the level of Den from Fallout 2.

Not to say that it was the mayor who sold both sides which visited the town to Legion. thus sealing its fate. Vulpes only had a small squad. He wouldn't be able to do anything if the town was aware of the attack.
 

DalekFlay

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New Vegas
Name ONE dictator who never forced anyone to live under his rule, never tried to tax or disarm his people and never tried to expand his domain...

I really don't think "you could always leave" is a defense, but yes he's (as of the time of the game) pretty hands off. However his robot guards still gun people down on the street per his orders, and you're giving him hundreds more robots. His dialog still often shows he's ruthless with anyone who opposes him. Live under his tent, submit to him being the ultimate authority under penalty of death. If you don't see that as authoritarianism then fine, but whatever -ism it is I think flawed democracy is better.
 

Sigourn

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Name ONE dictator who never forced anyone to live under his rule, never tried to tax or disarm his people and never tried to expand his domain...

I really don't think "you could always leave" is a defense, but yes he's (as of the time of the game) pretty hands off. However his robot guards still gun people down on the street per his orders, and you're giving him hundreds more robots. His dialog still often shows he's ruthless with anyone who opposes him. Live under his tent, submit to him being the ultimate authority under penalty of death. If you don't see that as authoritarianism then fine, but whatever -ism it is I think flawed democracy is better.

I don't see this authoritarism you are talking about.
When you deliver the chip, you are free to leave without getting killed or anything like that. All Mr. House says is that he thinks you are an idiot for leaving, but that's it. And remember, it's the Courier, the only person that can help him.
 

Silverfish

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Name ONE dictator who never forced anyone to live under his rule, never tried to tax or disarm his people and never tried to expand his domain...

IRL? Yeah, none. In New Vegas? Literally Mr. House. Dude's had 200 years and is still content to hang out on the strip with that lady securitron.
 
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Codex Year of the Donut
Name ONE dictator who never forced anyone to live under his rule, never tried to tax or disarm his people and never tried to expand his domain...
What you're looking for is benevolent dictator.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorship
The problem with benevolent dictators is that they die. Mr. House is effectively immortal which skirts around that problem.
 

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