NWN2: Storm of Zehir expansion (now confirmed)

[nomask7]

While I'm definitely in favour of death in a game with great turn based combat (e.g. ToEE) where I can control every action I wouldn't want it in NWN2 where I have little control over all the character's actions and constant pausing grinds on my nerves. I don't want to babysit everyone just because the AI is too dumb to use a healing potion.

Did you try Tony K's AI? Anyway, I'm rather a babysitter than a bored spectator. If I want to simply watch something, I won't play games. I'll watch a movie or trees or whatever.

 

[Relayer71]

And it is an improvement: everyone here and elsewhere talks about BG2's combat being superior to NWN2's, and it's the only substantial difference between the two systems.

I'll assume you are trying to troll...

No. I've never heard anyone say he preferred NWN2's combat to BG's. Or is that not what you meant? Maybe you can think of other substantial differences between the two combat systems besides the "companion can die in combat"/"can't really die in combat because that would irritate the average player" thing. I can't.

The difference is in the challenge of the combat. BG2 has harder enemies. NWN2's combat is too easy and thus monotonous chore.

NWN 2 combat just feels clunky and annoying to handle. Not the developers mistake, they had to rework an existing engine.

Combat engine isn't that much different from BG2's - main problem is that "NWN2's combat is too easy and thus a monotonous chore".

 

[deuxhero]

The sole feature that exists, outside of the character itself, that determines personality, is the assigned dialog file. How would it be humanely possible to create an unknown number of dialog files that can all interact with each other and still not seem shallow?

We have talked about many options, for example like maybe assigning a dialog file based on the characters background feat, but what if the player doesn't choose one?

hmm come to think of it there could be another way.
like f.e. player creates a custom non-main character.
he chooses stats, feats, abilities, appearance etc.
then the time comes to choose the alignment.
and here you can ask him whether he will prefer to assign a personality to this character or not - if not he chooses the alignment normally and his character won't have a premade personality - if yes - you show him the list of pre-made dialog files based on alignments like

Personalities:
1. Char Name, Neutral Evil, a short background info (just to give a feel of the personality)
2. Char Name, Lawful Good, a short background info
3. Char Name, Lawful Neutral, a short background info
...
which will set an alignment to the character as well.

this way you won't have to create hundreds of dialog files - but at least 5 or 6 will do a nice job (and I doubt that you will create a party entirely of a single alignment chars) and it will be easy to get away with a personality based only on an alignment and still not make it to look shallow.
of course depending on char's class some options will be "grayed out".

In a new world with a new engine, anything might be possible. However, in DnD alignment can restrict class selection, which is why class selection is done so early in the character creation process.

Also, if I created a party of all LG do gooders, they would all start to sound alike, when they probably would be nothing at all alike. A LG Elf would probably behave much more different and with more long term goals than a shorter lived LG human, just as an example.

there is your first problom, assumeing that there is one personality for a single alignment, for example a love freak and a Knight Templar can both qualify as LG, while they are near opposites in personality

To be fair, it is a stupidly common mistake about the algiment system.

 

[Texas Red]

And it is an improvement: everyone here and elsewhere talks about BG2's combat being superior to NWN2's, and it's the only substantial difference between the two systems.

I'll assume you are trying to troll...

No. I've never heard anyone say he preferred NWN2's combat to BG's. Or is that not what you meant? Maybe you can think of other substantial differences between the two combat systems besides the "companion can die in combat"/"can't really die in combat because that would irritate the average player" thing. I can't.

The difference is in the challenge of the combat. BG2 has harder enemies. NWN2's combat is too easy and thus monotonous chore.

NWN 2 combat just feels clunky and annoying to handle. Not the developers mistake, they had to rework an existing engine.

Combat engine isn't that much different from BG2's - main problem is that "NWN2's combat is too easy and thus a monotonous chore".

I agree with that too. One has to wonder why they couldn't place a single powerful enemy in the orc caves that would require the effort of the whole party to take down instead of billions of inconsequential orcs. Though Obsidian games are great, they are plagued with such occasional bad design decisions. I just went through that Telos dungeon in KotOR 2 and oh god... Obsidian has a penchant for designing bad dungeons. If only everything could be like the Warlock dungeon in NWN 2 with the devils and demons.

 

[MetalCraze]

there is your first problom, assumeing that there is one personality for a single alignment, for example a love freak and a Knight Templar can both qualify as LG, while they are near opposites in personality

To be fair, it is a stupidly common mistake about the algiment system.

I've never said there has to be just 1 personality per alignment. that was a mere example of how it may look. I just said that 5 absolutely unforced personalities that you may choose or not choose are better than none. basically you would have the same joinable NPC just like any non-customizable ones in the game - except you would've been able to customize it.
it's like having the character with a personality of f.e. Kaelyn (not precisely of course but just an example) but with a class (in range of personality's alignment of course)/stats characteristics you want instead of the ones forced on you by the game. yet with the same good alignment.

 

[Shannow]

Have you ever considered what sort of difference it really makes in actual and perceived difficulty, because, for example, you have to protect your wizard unless you want to travel back to town and visit the temple?

My whole argument is based on the fact that BG combat is vastly different from NWN2 in control, rule system and spell selection. Which is exactly why I don't want to fight with the engine just to keep weak party members alive. It wouldn't be a problem with a good turn based system or even a fluid RTwP system. It is a problem with the clunky NWN2 engine.

But I see, I'm already repeating myself. So you are a troll. Bring some arguments, agree to not agree or don't expect me to repeat myself again.

And who cared about the rezz wand in HotU? I didn't take companions along anyway.

 

[Ryuken]

As many have said, NWN2 still feels a bit odd to control/navigate and such, especially in comparison to older, isometric partybased games. That being said, it was good to see it at least tried to bring back the partybased feeling instead of the miserable henchmen stuff of NWN1.

Nice to see Obsidian wants to continue with bringing these kind of features back.

 

[nomask7]

My whole argument is based on the fact that BG combat is vastly different from NWN2 in control, rule system and spell selection.

Sorry, I failed to see that was your false premise. Obviously I would otherwise have commented on it earlier.

Rule system vastly different? In both systems--and they're the same system--achieving success in balanced combat consists of about 90% luck and 10% hard work. They're also basically the same otherwise as well. What perverse thoughts did you have in mind that I can't fathom? AoO? Please don't be too specific.

Spell selection? Yeah maybe.

Control? Who cares if you have sausages in place of fingers. I had no trouble with it.

 

[Volourn]

NWN series combat > BG series combat. More combat, more variety, more coolness.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I do say that I never had much trouble with NWN2 controls.

I'd beg to differ balanced DnD combat being 90% luck and 10% hard work. It's all about the usage of the spells and abilities available. And luck. 50/50 if you ask me. A roll can decide the battle, but the rest of it is up to strategy.

 

[slipgate_angel]

This expansion had me at creating six of your own characters. Boy do I miss the old days of having your own party to assemble. Now if I can get a decent rig to run it in time, I will be all set. :D

 

[Volourn]

Multiple headed monsters hurt role-playing not enhance it. Therefore, this expansions' role-playing will almost automatically be worse than the first expansion.

 

[The Feral Kid]

players will become aware of a new faction working behind the scenes: the evil, shapeshifting, serpentine Yuan-Ti.

Ugh...

 

[Jaime Lannister]

NWN series combat > BG series combat. More combat, more variety, more coolness.

Not NWN1. Controlling 1 character = less fun due to less strategy.

 

[Volourn]

NWN1 had more strategy in its pinky finger than the BG series had in its intire body. Sorry; but the truth hurts.

 

[bat_boro]

NWN1 had more strategy in its pinky finger than the BG series had in its intire body. Sorry; but the truth hurts.

And where would that strategy be?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

NWN1 had more strategy in its pinky finger than the BG series had in its intire body. Sorry; but the truth hurts.

And where would that strategy be?

Same place as the choices and consequences.

 

[Jaime Lannister]

NWN1 had more strategy in its pinky finger than the BG series had in its intire body. Sorry; but the truth hurts.

3e instead of 2e? What else is different? The mind boggles.

 

[Volourn]

"And where would that strategy be?"

More combat options. Just the choices of parry, knockdown, disarm, and called shot is enough to make Aurora's combat superior to BG series. In BG2, your only combat chocie was ATTACK!!! (except with TOB epic powerz! - which Codex proclaims to hate, l0lligagz!)

Face the facts. Aurora combat system > IE combat system

 

[MetalCraze]

how many times did you use knockdown/disarm/called shot instead of simply hacking through the hordes of those enemies which was more effective in NWN than those abilities which were failing in most cases?

 

[Jasede]

Hm, why let me think-

All the time. A hard module is quite impossible without use of Knockdown and Expertise and, yes, even Power Attack, depending on the module, server, DM and campaign you are playing.

If you're talking about the OC even though applying these things would complete combat rather quickly. Knockdown on the mage, switch to Expertise while the flanking henchman racks up hits on your target. Or power attack while your target is flanked. Called shot is an incredibly useful feat in most DM-run campaigns online. In fact when you have a human DM, all these things are remarkably useful; and vital in PvP too.

Now you might say: but the OC- well... it's not my fault you make the game harder and more boring on yourself by not using these feats, and frankly, if you bought NWN for the OC you somewhat missed at least 66% of the point of buying NWN.

 

[Volourn]

"how many times did you use knockdown/disarm/called shot instead of simply hacking through the hordes of those enemies which was more effective in NWN than those abilities which were failing in most cases?"

Ebough to know those abilities do matter. And, if they failed as much as you claim; you didn't build your character properly. Moron.

NWN1/NWN2 combat system is too complex for an ignorant non reader like you to comprehend. BG's 'just press the attack button' is more your style. LMAO

 

[MetalCraze]

we were talking about OC.

yet it didn't make the game harder for me. iirc I was completing the game with a fighter (or barbarian probably) (ugh lets say close combat / fighter class) and I didn't really have any trouble with it (I took Linu - healer). after the second half of the OC I remember my fighter was killing mages and other non-fat-on-hp classes so quickly that I didn't really use much "tactical" abilities which became more like "gimmick" by that time.
the only really challenging part after that was the last boss fight.

@Volourn: yes it absolutely proves that I didn't build my character properly.

 

[Jasede]

I found the OC terrible so I didn't play it so I wouldn't know. Do keep in mind that in D&D, frontliners are supposed to tear through mages and few-HP monsters rapidly, racking up Cleave. If a mage is so close to a fighter that he can be hit by him he's a terrible mage- or a very clever one who has Elemental Shield, Acid Sheath and Death armor on and a lot of HP.

 

[MetalCraze]

don't forget that in NWN you have a party of two. all enemy parties are balanced accordingly. after the second half of the game Linu becomes quite a powerful healer so running past those fighters to quickly hack down mages isn't a problem.